Chord Scannng question

iaoranaemaeva · Post by **iaoranaemaeva** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:53 pm

Lee wrote:OH, by the way the 16 half step limitation is only on the right of the split point (even though split is off)

Hmm... This morning, after restart, things have changed a bit:
In Chord Scanning = Full, Keyboard Mode = Full Upper, in Fingered 2, 3 and Expert modes, 3 notes played:

- Now the max span is 17 half steps, not 16

- The limitation covers the whole keyboard, whatever the split point from C-2 to C7

Seems the manual statements are completely valid in Split mode only?

NB 1: The manuals state that Expert is "an extension of Fingered 2"...

NB 2/ The manuals state that Fingered 3 option "is automatically
selected when selecting the FULL Chord Scanning mode": this is not true on my Pa800...

Pfiewww

Alain

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:48 pm

Alain,
Yes, it is 17 half steps.
I find no matter what the settings the chord recognition is fine on the left of split point (even if split is off), but the 17 half step limitation goes into effect on the right half of the split AND in combination of the left and right areas.

Does that agree with what you have determined?

Lee

iaoranaemaeva · Post by **iaoranaemaeva** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:12 pm

Lee wrote:(..) the 17 half step limitation goes into effect on the right half of the split AND in combination of the left and right areas.

Does that agree with what you have determined?

No Lee: this morning

the limitation encompasses the whole keyboard, whatever the split point...

Alain

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:25 pm

Lee wrote:Rob,
I did the test you requested...mine behaves EXACTLY like Alain's.

Yes it is the same in OS1.11.

OH, by the way the 16 half step limitation is only on the right of the split point (even though split is off)

Thanks,
Lee

Hi Lee,

Thank you. So is a workaround setting the split point off the left of the keyboard?

Best regards,
Rob

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:46 pm

Rob,
No that won't help.
Alain, yes I see your right.

I use expert mode only as I want to have the PA recognize chord changes when I lift or add any note(s) without re-keying the whole chord. So this is in expert mode.

Looks like with full keyboard chord scanning (both LEDS on) there is a 17 half step zone all over the keyboard. Nothing outside of that zone is recognized. Maybe this is on purpose? But I don't understand if it is.

Looks like the only way the 17 half step zone is not in effect is when chord scanning is LEFT only. So for normal style play with split on and left chord scanning chords are recognized all over left of the split as expected.

It's the other modes that either don't seem right or maybe I don't understand how to use it?

Since I am more of a organ player I typically use the split mode, LH chord recognition. But I have been trying other playing styles.

Maybe someone with a PA1 will try this out to see how it works???

Lee

iaoranaemaeva · Post by **iaoranaemaeva** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:21 am

Lee wrote:Alain, yes I see your right.

I'm relieved to hear things are not paranormal in our Pa's world

Looks like with full keyboard chord scanning (both LEDS on) there is a 17 half step zone all over the keyboard. Nothing outside of that zone is recognized. Maybe this is on purpose? But I don't understand if it is.

What can be read in the manual of One Man Band 10 (a software arranger for Yamaha styles):

"In full keyboard mode there is no separate chord and melody area on the keyboard. Whenever you have 3 or more keys pressed then the program will try to detect a chord. If there is an interval of more then 5 semitones between two keys then all the keys to the right will be regarded as melody notes and will not be included in the chord."

Since I did not play a Yamaha arranger for almost 15 years

I don't know what are the PSR or Tyros recognition modes nowadays

Alain

abo59 · Post by **abo59** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:23 am

Lee wrote:Looks like with full keyboard chord scanning (both LEDS on) there is a 17 half step zone all over the keyboard. Nothing outside of that zone is recognized.

Not entirely true.
- If playing no more than 3 notes in total, then it is true, the zone of 17 half-steps is the limit.
- If playing at least 3 notes within this zone, then another note or notes will be recognized outside of the zone.
(This is true also for Fingered 3 mode.)

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:24 am

abo59,
Well..I just tried it. Full scannig mode, expert recognition.
I played C3, E3, G3... simple C chord
Then if I hold it and add a B flat 3 = C7
But if I add a B flat 5,or 6,or 7 etc = C chord only , not C7
So it is not using the notes abov 17 half steps away.

Lee

iaoranaemaeva · Post by **iaoranaemaeva** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:31 am

Lee wrote:I played C3, E3, G3... simple C chord
Then if I hold it and add a B flat 3 = C7
But if I add a B flat 5,or 6,or 7 etc = C chord only , not C7
So it is not using the notes abov 17 half steps away.

This is rather consistent with our previous observations, isn't it?

Alain

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:21 am

Hi Alain and Lee,

I agree that "full keyboard scanning" does not seem to be happening like we expect, but I'm surprised we never noticed this before.

Is it the same behaviour under the previous OS?

What happens if you play a chord on C4 E4 G4 and add Bb2 and Bb3? Is the recognised chord still C - instead of C7 ?

What happens if you play C2, E4 and G4? What chord if any is recognised?

Thanks,
Rob

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:41 pm

Rob,
Interesting, (Full keybord scanning)

C4, E4, G4 = C maj
ADD Bb2 or Bb3 = C7 (these are certainly out of the 17 1/2 steps)

C2, E4, G4 = no chord detected (as previously known)

Lee

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:54 pm

I suspect what is happening in full keyboard mode with expert chord recognition is that the "17 semitone range" applies to either hand on the basis that people can't reach farther than that. If indeed the 4 or more notes from a chord can be split / shared between two 17 semitone "hand" spreads then there may not be a problem. I think a total of 4 distinct notes may be needed but these can be "shared" between the two hands. Sorry I can't test this theory at the moment.

Best regards,
Rob

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:03 pm

Rob,
That makes some sense to me. 17 1/2 steps is way beyond what I can handle. Maybe when you get OL Betsy back you can test a little more to see if it is working the way it should.

I know on the DVD's Chris seems to be happy with the way it worked for him on PA1X.

Lee

iaoranaemaeva · Post by **iaoranaemaeva** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:52 am

Rob Sherratt wrote:I suspect what is happening in full keyboard mode with expert chord recognition is that the "17 semitone range" applies to either hand on the basis that people can't reach farther than that. If indeed the 4 or more notes from a chord can be split / shared between two 17 semitone "hand" spreads then there may not be a problem.

This features allows playing in "Full/Full Mode" with no interference between the accompaniment and the melody or impro line. Otherwise, playing as modern jazz pianist do would be impracticable, since each upper note could modify the current chord.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:55 am

Hi Lee and Alain,

Are we heading for a conclusion that in Expert full keyboard mode there is a "cunning design" with two "floating" 17 semitone ranges (one for each hand) which is not a fault? I think this may be the way it has worked right back to Pa1x days. I guess someone who still has a Pa1x might be able to confirm.

Shall we also investigate the exact details for the other chord scanning modes and "upper" and "lower" scannning zone options? ...

... I wouldn't be surprised if the same algorithm is used ... ie there might be two 17 semitone spreads supported on either the lower or upper split ranges as well, just in case the user moves the split point and plays both hands in the same split zone.

Thanks,
Rob