What is wrong with my M50?

[Xenomorph]

I know 3 other locals and had them run the test using C053 and other progs and sure enough, same issue. On another note, they have all had their M50's longer than I and NONE of them have had a hanging note just as I haven't.

Korg will reply when they have something to say and when they've narrowed it down to a cause. I'm assuming that hasn't been accomplished yet. If Jerry or someone else comes in here and says it's being worked on, we all know a lot of others will be in here begging for a time frame and it may get out of hand. I say wait until there's some solid info to be given but that's just me

If I had hanging notes while playing out I may be one of those impatient ones

[FifthElement]

I know 3 other locals and had them run the test using C053 and other progs and sure enough, same issue. On another note, they have all had their M50's longer than I and NONE of them have had a hanging note just as I haven't.

Korg will reply when they have something to say and when they've narrowed it down to a cause. I'm assuming that hasn't been accomplished yet. If Jerry or someone else comes in here and says it's being worked on, we all know a lot of others will be in here begging for a time frame and it may get out of hand. I say wait until there's some solid info to be given but that's just me

If I had hanging notes while playing out I may be one of those impatient ones

Don't agree. Someone from Korg should acknowledge users concerns and at least say they are working on it or a firmware update will sort it.

That way they will see fewer people returning their M50s for a refund. It will also assure people that they have some quality control and customer after service - which isn't obvious at the moment.

[Xenomorph]

Well my viewpoint is if someone returns it(and I mean NO offense to those that DID return one) knowing its a software issue and will be addressed at some point, well that's their loss. Yeah yeah back to the old "but the customer deserves to be satisfied 100%" argument and I'm fine with that but that's a lot of lost time that could otherwise be spent enjoying the M50 when it does work which for even those that had an issue was 99.9% of the time.

If it the problem can be solved with an update(and everything we've seen shows it can be), I just don't see a point in returning it. To do what? Buy one again down the road hoping it already has the update? And what when you get it home and its the same version? You'll update it on your own...mind as well have kept the original one and learned it inside and out.

Maybe I'm talking out my ass but patience is indeed a virtue and I believe some is needed right now is all

Go ahead, flame away

[FifthElement]

Personally, I would be returning it for a competitors product not to buy another M50.

This is the first Korg I've bought since the M1 and I've had many keyboards in between. None of the Rolands, Yamahas or Nords I've had in the meantime have had such a serious fault as a note sticking completely in live performance - in fact they haven't had a fault at all of any sort!

If Korg have a fix for this intrinsic fault they need to get it out to M50 users ASAP. How their QC can be so bad as to miss such a vital basic fault is beyond me. Don't they bother testing stuff these days!

[StudioMan]

I will admit, if I didn't see the Video, I would have serious doubts, but ya, that's an issue..

The M50 is a FINE instrument for the $, and Korg is one of the most respected names in the business, they will figure it out..

But is just a little odd nobody has at least said "ok, we saw it, we are on it"!

Good job tho to the guy who found this issue.. Hard to argue with the way he replicated the issue..

Interesting!

Mike

[jerrythek]

Hello folks:

I have been travelling (to Japan) and haven't seen the forums as of late.

Let's separate the issues being discussed here, the video relates to mono/legato mode and has nothing to do with hanging notes.

Every Program listed is set to Mono mode, with legato set as well. So the sounds are designed to be played monophonically (1 note at a time). When holding a note and then playing a second note you will get a "hammer-on" type of effect and the M50 is stretching the first sample up to the second pitch. When you let go of the top note you will notice that the pitch jumps back down to the lower pitch.

With me so far?

So there is a limitation of how far you can stretch a single sample upward, and if you exceed that limit there can be problems.

Ideally, if a sound is set to mono you should not play multiple notes, as you are currently experimenting with. Sometimes when a sound is set to be played a certain way you need to follow those rules. I find that even with the current settings if I play cleanly and don't hold notes at extreme ranges I have no problem.

If you don't like the setting, change it from mono back to poly. Then you'll have no problems. And you can still choose Legato for Poly sounds, and even choose Single triggering or not. All found on the Program basic page.

Being able to make a sound do something strange is not always a fault, per se, but can be achieved by also "breaking the rules" of a given setting or parameter.

The character you are describing as Ring Mod to me is simply the interaction of pitches with the distortion effect. I don't hear anything else strange.

Does this explanation help you to understand what is happening? Let me know.

Regards,

Jerry

[John Hendry]

What Jerry said makes total sense and glad He explained what was happening here. It reminded me of losing polyphony from the description. I had some concerns but figured Korg would fix any bugs with an OS upgrade. BTW I still have had no stuck notes with small time spent with M50 but added a few more hours, enough to see it's working as I expected it to. Just wish I was a better sound programmer. Really makes you appreciate some of programming that was done in the past. You really have to pay attention listening and put in some time programming, not playing.

Thanks to Jerry for giving us his time, not every product comes with a forum like this with the Company's Rep stopping by to tell us what our discoveries mean using the equipment.

Thanks to Troy for making it known....


John^^

[troyguitar]

I don't think it's quite as simple as was described, though I don't actually have the m50 here to be sure.

IIRC, I could hold the lowest note on the keyboard and "hammer" the highest note without any issues. It only seemed to happen when playing certain sequences of notes.

In any case, my goal was to be able to more or less replicate guitar-style leads without having to spend years learning to play keys well. In other words, the mono + legato modes are pretty much mandatory for epic "sweep-picking" phrases and "Eruption tapping".

[jpscoey]

...there is a limitation of how far you can stretch a single sample upward, and if you exceed that limit there can be problems...

Jerry

Don't get me wrong, I really am thankful to own equipment by a company that does keep an eye on customers comments & concerns,

but I tried (several times) to replicate Troy's sequence of notes,

and did not encounter the same problem.

To anyone who didn't read my earlier post, this was done on my M50-88, therefore a MUCH wider range was covered.

If Jerry's (at first glance, plausible) explanation is correct, why doesn't this phenomenon occur over a seven octave range???


.

[jerrythek]

I personally have no problem playing all those sounds in any style... I had to work to cause the issue to happen. I understand that no user likes to be told, "play cleaner/better/whatever", so please don't think I was being over simple. But what I explained is exactly the technical issue as tested and confirmed with Korg inc.

So Troy certainly experienced what he experienced. And it doesn't have to happen with slightly cleaner playing.

And Jps... the differerce in keybeds is not the issue - if played in a certain fashion you will see the behavior on the 88.

But again, this can be controlled and doesn't have to happen.

Regards,

Jerry

[troyguitar]

That still doesn't really explain why one can hold the lowest note on the keyboard whilst hammering the highest note on the keyboard without having any problems.

And, now that I think about it, I don't think it has anything to do with "cleaner" playing. The point of that kind of phrase is to do the whole thing legato, so all of the notes are supposed to be played with some overlap...

I still think it's a more complex problem than merely the range between the lowest and highest notes in a phrase.

[FifthElement]

I still don't see how the playing style or playing "cleaner" should ever cause a note to continue sounding when not being played (beyond its normal sustain) - unless the sample is faulty or badly programmed or a "key off" is not being received/sent.

I've certainly not seen this on any other manufacturer's keyboards (in the last 20 years or so) irrespective of the sample/synthesis technique or indeed my own technique.

This Korg "technical issue" still sounds like a fault to me. A stuck note is a stuck note in my book - and should NEVER happen!

[John Hendry]

Jerry said: "So the sounds are designed to be played monophonically (1 note at a time). When holding a note and then playing a second note you will get a "hammer-on" type of effect and the M50 is stretching the first sample up to the second pitch. When you let go of the top note you will notice that the pitch jumps back down to the lower pitch.

Ideally, if a sound is set to mono you should not play multiple notes, as you are currently experimenting with. Sometimes when a sound is set to be played a certain way you need to follow those rules. I find that even with the current settings if I play cleanly and don't hold notes at extreme ranges I have no problem. "

Well, if they are monophonic sounds to be played one sound at a time then it seems reasonable that if you try to play them like poly sounds you will experience issues with hardware reality.

Attitude on any issue affects perception and here an adjustment to accept the reality of this type of sound seems needed. As for hanging note issues I have not had it happen on the M50 at least not yet but have had it happen randomly on other boards and know the "all notes off" feature on many is there for a reason. I wonder if users using it slightly different in some same way are causing this and mine would do it too. We should look for usage patterns that cause it to help Korg resolve it. This seems to be an OS update resolution and I am sure Korg will resolve it. I expected "something" to need to be resolved in OS as M50 does a lot of things and just came out. Bad attitude maybe;-)

John^^

[jerrythek]

I still don't see how the playing style or playing "cleaner" should ever cause a note to continue sounding when not being played (beyond its normal sustain) - unless the sample is faulty or badly programmed or a "key off" is not being received/sent.

I've certainly not seen this on any other manufacturer's keyboards (in the last 20 years or so) irrespective of the sample/synthesis technique or indeed my own technique.

This Korg "technical issue" still sounds like a fault to me. A stuck note is a stuck note in my book - and should NEVER happen!

I'm sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my first post. I am not talking about hung notes - this thread has progressed to discussing two different points, and I was removing the stuck note issue from my dialog. I was only addressing Troy's reported behavior, which was not about stuck notes.

Sorry if I was unclear.

regards,

Jerry

[FifthElement]

I still don't see how the playing style or playing "cleaner" should ever cause a note to continue sounding when not being played (beyond its normal sustain) - unless the sample is faulty or badly programmed or a "key off" is not being received/sent.

I've certainly not seen this on any other manufacturer's keyboards (in the last 20 years or so) irrespective of the sample/synthesis technique or indeed my own technique.

This Korg "technical issue" still sounds like a fault to me. A stuck note is a stuck note in my book - and should NEVER happen!

I'm sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my first post. I am not talking about hung notes - this thread has progressed to discussing two different points, and I was removing the stuck note issue from my dialog. I was only addressing Troy's reported behavior, which was not about stuck notes.

Sorry if I was unclear.

regards,

Jerry

So, the stuck note fault is a separate issue? IMO it is by far the most immediate and more serious problem than the correct application of mono or poly mode in some patches.

What is Korg's response on this? Is it acknowledged? Can it be fixed with a firmware update or is it a more serious issue? Are M50 users expected to just acccept stuck notes during a non-sequenced live performance?

With respect, Jerry, this issue needs addressing not separating.