Please help

[Rob Sherratt]

Marko,

Have you tried all the ready-made Korg Brass Ensemble combis that use the EXPCM01 and EXPCM02 samples? IMHO there are some fantastic sounding brass ensembles there.

Regards,
Rob

[MarkoX50]

No,because I dont have expansion...Can you tell me exactly which sample from EXPCM01/2 to use

[Rob Sherratt]

Here is a list of "brass ensemble" sounds to try. I excluded from the list most of the woodwind combis and programs but you may like to try woodwind mixes as well later on.

Standard Combis:

A026 Brass & Sax Section
A056 Super Sax Section
A072 Trumpets & Brass Open Tone
A088 Alto & Brass Section
A097 Brass & Strings Orchestra
B010 Slow Brass 1 SW1 Oct
B039 Pipes & Strings & Brass
B104 FrenchHorns&Bones
C001 Reed/Str/Brass/Orch
C010 Sforzando Brass
C026 Cupmute Ensemble Brass

Standard Programs:

D008 Stereo Open Brass
D009 Big Stereo Brass
D010 Thin Stereo Brass
D011 Trumpets Xfade
D012 Warm Brass
D013 Full Brass Section
D014 Mono Brass
D015 SFZ Brass
D016 Brass Vel. Fall 3-Way
D017 Sharp Brass 1
D018 Sharp Brass 2
D019 Sharp Brass sfz
D020 Sharp Brass Velo Fall
D021 Pop Brass L/R
D022 Dyna Brass Section
D023 Brass Section 1
D024 Brass Section 2
D025 Brass Tp Vib
D026 Hybrid Trombone Section
D027 Hybrid Trombones sfz
D028 Sax & Brass
D029 Pop Brass/Bari Sax
D030 Sharp Brass & Sax Octave
D031 Jazzy Tp & Sax
D032 Trumpets Velocity
D033 Trombone Duo
D034 2 Trumpets Vib
D035 2 Trumpets Vib Octave
D036 2 Trumpets Oct-Velo Fall
D037 Sharp 2 Trumpets
D038 Bright Trumpet Section
D039 T.O.P Section
D040 Tp/Tb Section Vel Fall
D041 Tp/Tb Brass Vib
D042 Tp/Tb Slow Legato
D043 Tp/Tb Vib Octave Brass 1
D044 Tp/Tb Vib Octave Brass 2
D045 Trombones 4-Way
D046 Trombones Xfade
D047 Brass & Saxophones
D048 Stereo Brass & Tubas
D049 French Horn Ensemble
D050 French Horn Duo
D051 Nu French Horn Ensemble
D052 Nu Big Band Brass 5th
D053 Brass doit/fall Hit !
D054 Mute Tp/Tb Ensemble
D055 Sharp Mute Tp/Tb
D056 Sharp Mute Tp/Tb Octave
D057 Sharp Mute Tp/Tb sfz
D058 Sharp 2 Mute Trumpets
GM062 Brass Section 1
g(1)062 Brass Section 2

Programs requiring EXPCM01.KEP samples to be loaded:

E000 Stereo Dyn Brass Ens EX1
E001 Sforzando Brass EX1
E016 3 Brass Ens EX1
E017 Stereo Big Brass Ens EX1
E018 Trumpet & St Brass EX1
E019 Trombone & St Brass EX1
E020 Dyna Slow Brass Ens EX1
E021 St Slow Brass Ens EX1
E022 Cup Brass Ens EX1
E023 Stereo Atk Trumpets EX1
E024 Stereo Cup Trumpets EX1
E025 Stereo Atk Trombones EX1
E026 Stereo Cup Trombones EX1
E027 Stereo Atk F.Horns EX1
E028 Stereo Open F.Horns EX1
E029 3 Way FrenchHorns EX1

Programs requiring both EXPCM01.KEP & EXPCM02.KEP samples

E126 Brass&Sax Big Band EX1&2

[ozy]

It sound shallow,i dont know...I want richer sound

you are right, it's ugly and shallow.

But that happens all the time with workstations.

TRY THIS:

it's an old trick, based pn psychoacustics.

the human brain detects the instruments from its higher frequencies,

the bottom frequencies are more indistinct,

while you will immediately tell a flute's "breath" from a sax's "growl".

So, choose a brass or woodiwind program which is really distinct and peculiar, very "saxy" or "trumpety", no matter how thin or shallow it is.

you don't need an "ensemble" program (i.e.: a program which emulates a brass orchestra): you may just use one trumpet and one tenor sax. What you need is the high-frequencies peculiarity, not the volume.

Single-instrument programs usually are more articulated, so they sound better than the common "Count Basie Orchestra" preset.

Choose a dry, effect-less sound with plenty of presence. You'll had fancy reverb later, if you want, but less effect will usually make for a more detailed and "acoustic" sound.

[of course, if you are skilled at using EQ, exciter and compressors/limiter, go ahead. But a raw "maynard ferguson" trumpet sample will cut like a knife].

Then, layer another program: this time you need a big, fat, analog horns sound (with low cutoff frequency and NO resonance, so that you don't really ear that it's a synthesyzer sound. Not too fast attack in order to avoid anticipating the low frequencies. let the ear perceive the spoecific high frequencies first, then kick him in the guts]).

Choose a "prophet horns" program, or something like that.

Then play the two together.

the brasses will sound like acoustic brasses, but they will get a whole new "punch" from the analog sound

Careful: a "analog brass" preset won't work, because it will provide too much high frequencies, and they will be too obviously synthetic.

You must sum "sampled acoustic realism" and "analog power", not the other way round.

The brain will hear the high frequencies of the sax and trumpet and will say "listen, sax and trumpet". then will ear the analog sound and will translate it into "listen, they are MANY". The two signals together will add to "brass section".

Try, it works.

You want to ear a sample, listen to Joe Zawinul playing "Y'elena" live in "Vienna Nights" (or is it "75"?): the brass section playing the riffs is just a couple of presets from Korg M1 (which your M3 can outperform easily), summed to the prophet T8 horns. You will never tell it's not Count Basie.

This doesn't solve the other problem with samples brasses: they are inarticulated, they are flat, the notes start and end almost identical no matter how many EG you use. Sampled articulation is often worse (the "falling trombone" presets on the M3 are pathetic)

But for solving that, there's only VL synthesis. Buy 4 or 5 yamaha vl70m synths, program each one as a different instrument of the brass session, and play them with a breath controller.

This is how I do.

problem here is that 5 vl70m cost more than a m3m-88... for a 5 note polyphony.

And they'll always need some analog fattening anyway.

[MarkoX50]

Thanks,but I created yesterday a really cool brass section
I am going to record it

[MarkoX50]

Here it is...First brass is from last year concert of Michael Jackson(keyboard player is also playing m3),and second is of course mine...I think that my sound is pritty similar,but I added on EQ higher frequencies

http://www.box.net/shared/hzhsuruy9b

[ozy]

well, you nailed the MJ patch you wanted to emulate,

but that's definitely not a "brass section" sound,

that's a "rompler synth playing a brass section" patch.

We were talking of two completely different things.

[Gargamel314]

ozy - that looks pretty interesting, i'm interested - i always thought a lot of the brass ensemble sounds of the M3 were kinda fake sounding, i'm starting to see why. looking forward to messing around with some brass sounds this weekend now

[synthguy]

If you're trying to nail a patch used in a song, that's usually not too hard to do because many of them were done on a KORG.

But if you want a more authentic brass section sequenced, the only way to do it is to sequence a brass section which is a collection of instruments roughly like that in a brass band. Find the trumpet, sax, trombone etc patches that sound best to you with your playing, and go in and play each part monophonically on separate tracks, the way the real players do it. And don't quantize anything. Doing the brass parts on separate tracks will make brass falls sound quite realistic if done right, because each note will have its own start time and bend rate.

Doing it live is a headache, because playing brass on a keyboard always sounds like a keyboard is playing them, because the notes happen at the same time and always have the same sound on each key. The best thing to do is use ozy's suggestion above, using a very expressive analog brass patch that blends well with the sampled patches. That way, you get some articulation from the analog patch that's extremely hard to do in a sampled patch. And if you're a keyboard wizard, you can try changing your fingering so that each note starts at a slightly different time with each chord. But if you can manage that, I want you to help me with my album!

[ozy]

, you can try changing your fingering so that each note starts at a slightly different time with each chord. But if you can manage that, I want you to help me with my album!

sorry I can't help you with your new album,

but what I currently do is the following:

I linked 4 monophonic VL synths, each playing a different instrument (eg alto, tpt, bone, tenor) layered with a prophet's horns patch.

Plenty of velocity, aftertouch and breath control.

Each instrument has a slightly different timing, panning, reverb, and envelopes.

Problem is:

The first synth will always play the first note I hit, the second the second, etc (no way to turn this a different way, at least with yamaha - and there's no other choice for VL brass and wind synths).

So I had to learn fingering the chords and solos so that, eg, a solo line which starts with a sax is consistently played by a sax and I don't get the odd bone note in a sax solo just because I play a thrill

Unnerving.

Not to mention playing a sax line with right hand and having the trumpet play second line, and avoid switching parts...

I am not risking it live for now. Just training.

But with big band chords, it's way easier and any imperfection make for some AWESOME brass and horns emulation!