Worth, Sam
First of all thank you for your well meant feedback. Not only do I beg to differ it seems to me you are missing the point.
I agree with Nedim and let me add that people like him and Manual Dorantes e.g. who program terrific styles from scratch should be held in the highest esteem. Nedim is correct when saying which of you (and that includes me) has ever programmed any style from scratch?). So for starters my programming cannot compare to their level.
That being said one must understand first and foremost that when I get a new keyboard like when I did in October when I got the PA-500musikant I start programming for myself. Because I do not like the out of the box performances, many styles, etc.etc. It is like an addiction really. The 3.0 update from Korg convinced me even more that I could and should do better.When I had finished (sort of really, cause one is never finished orf course) and had other people have a go with it I got that many compliments that I thought it would be a shame not to share it with other Korg owners.
Having learnt from prior offerings and mistakes I thought it would be wise not to offer it for sale cause it would frighten many people off, forums would accuse me of commercial activities and keep you away, etc.etc.
So for the record and for the last time ,I offered my latest Resources entirely for FREE but simply added that a small donation on an entirely voluntary basis would be appreciated. I was naive enough (God forgive me at the age of 59) to think people would actually be happy to share with me the price of say a new DVD. I know I would be.....
Anyway circumstances have proved me wrong and Nedim right. The issue is not a financial one. The issue is appreciation. About 100 people have asked for and received my latest resources, no strings attached. 80 have not bothered about feedback in any form or matter. Ten have made a modest donation and another ten have at least had the grace to reply by mail or on the forum expressing their views, gratiude or whatever form of feedback.
There are several sources on the internet where you can buy good styles at a price. If you are interested you should do so cause these programmers are the salt of the earth, keyboard wise. But the least you can do elsewhere is to show appreciation (which is respect) and not sit down on your arse behind your keyboard and expect everything to come your way fo free by merely dropping a two-line email.
As far as I am concerned this discussion is closed, but feel free............
kind regards,
John Smies
Holland
brand new 2011 software for KORG PA arranger keyboards
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
"There are several sources on the internet where you can buy good styles at a price. If you are interested you should do so cause these programmers are the salt of the earth, keyboard wise. But the least you can do elsewhere is to show appreciation (which is respect) and not sit down on your arse behind your keyboard and expect everything to come your way fo free by merely dropping a two-line email.
As far as I am concerned this discussion is closed, but feel free............ "
I was with you all the way John until you said this last bit. There is nothing wrong with sitting on your arse waiting for things to be given to you for free. If i could get paid for sitting on my arse doing nothing i would be the best "sitting on my arse doing nothing" person in the world !!
.
If you want people to provide feed back for your hard work then distribute your work for free and ask for feedback !!! But you gave it away for free and then asked for money !! Thats a seriously conflictuing message and its no wonder you fell foul of other forums rules.
Some people may have recieved your product and not liked it and were too polite to say so. Perhaps as much as 80% ! You will never know what most people thought of your work because you did not make it a condition of your free (well sort of ) gift that they do so.
right now there is nothing stopping you from emailing the people to whom you distributed your work to anmd asking them for some honest feedback. I bet you if you asked them for it most would provide it.
John, if playing with your Pa and producing performances is your thing just for fun, then please keep having fun. If you want to share your work with people and get their views on your work for your own satisfaction and for the knowledge that you have done a good job thats cool too but do it properly.
But the moment you ask people for money for your work , you cross a threshold and it now becomes a commercial venture and it doesnt matter how well meaning you want to be, there are principles that you need to be aware of.
Listen i am not here to preach. I just dont want you (or my friend Nedim ) to feel sore about this experience or korg owners because people who took your product did not show the kind of appreciation you had perhaps hoped for but did not make clear you wanted.
Here's an idea for you. Through your own experience you have noted that many people dont know much about their PA's particularly in terms of saving , editing and manipulating the internal resources. How about making a video on the web , perhaps putting it up on myspace or facebook or youtube where people can log on and view your tuturials and provide feedback to you directly ?
There is definately a need for that and i am sure people would provide feed back if you asked them for it.
And Nedim, me and you are stilll cool
As far as I am concerned this discussion is closed, but feel free............ "
I was with you all the way John until you said this last bit. There is nothing wrong with sitting on your arse waiting for things to be given to you for free. If i could get paid for sitting on my arse doing nothing i would be the best "sitting on my arse doing nothing" person in the world !!
. If you want people to provide feed back for your hard work then distribute your work for free and ask for feedback !!! But you gave it away for free and then asked for money !! Thats a seriously conflictuing message and its no wonder you fell foul of other forums rules.
Some people may have recieved your product and not liked it and were too polite to say so. Perhaps as much as 80% ! You will never know what most people thought of your work because you did not make it a condition of your free (well sort of ) gift that they do so.
right now there is nothing stopping you from emailing the people to whom you distributed your work to anmd asking them for some honest feedback. I bet you if you asked them for it most would provide it.
John, if playing with your Pa and producing performances is your thing just for fun, then please keep having fun. If you want to share your work with people and get their views on your work for your own satisfaction and for the knowledge that you have done a good job thats cool too but do it properly.
But the moment you ask people for money for your work , you cross a threshold and it now becomes a commercial venture and it doesnt matter how well meaning you want to be, there are principles that you need to be aware of.
Listen i am not here to preach. I just dont want you (or my friend Nedim ) to feel sore about this experience or korg owners because people who took your product did not show the kind of appreciation you had perhaps hoped for but did not make clear you wanted.
Here's an idea for you. Through your own experience you have noted that many people dont know much about their PA's particularly in terms of saving , editing and manipulating the internal resources. How about making a video on the web , perhaps putting it up on myspace or facebook or youtube where people can log on and view your tuturials and provide feedback to you directly ?
There is definately a need for that and i am sure people would provide feed back if you asked them for it.
And Nedim, me and you are stilll cool
I disagree Worth...
The principles of Freeware, with an option of a donation to the creator by the end user are WELL established. John's request in this regard is completely in keeping with tradition and expected practice.
What you are not getting is the point that so many have, essentially, b**shi**ed John JUST to get a free copy of the software. The result of many hours of work.
And from the sound of it (from your post - re sitting on your ar*e and getting everything for free) you would not be above that type of BS either.
To criticise John for asking for a donation is totally wrong in my opinion. He created the data he is perfectly entitled to ask for some form of voluntary donation in return.
Please note he made the condition that the donation be VOLUNTARY, not compulsory!!
If it were compulsory, all the cheapskates certainly would have been weeded out.
I think John's main concern was the lack of real appreciation (and NOT token words in an email), and the staggering number of people who believe if it's posted in a forum or online it's fair game, and should be free...
No wonder the world is in the state it's in, when everyone expects the world to owe them a living!!
The principles of Freeware, with an option of a donation to the creator by the end user are WELL established. John's request in this regard is completely in keeping with tradition and expected practice.
What you are not getting is the point that so many have, essentially, b**shi**ed John JUST to get a free copy of the software. The result of many hours of work.
And from the sound of it (from your post - re sitting on your ar*e and getting everything for free) you would not be above that type of BS either.
To criticise John for asking for a donation is totally wrong in my opinion. He created the data he is perfectly entitled to ask for some form of voluntary donation in return.
Please note he made the condition that the donation be VOLUNTARY, not compulsory!!
If it were compulsory, all the cheapskates certainly would have been weeded out.
I think John's main concern was the lack of real appreciation (and NOT token words in an email), and the staggering number of people who believe if it's posted in a forum or online it's fair game, and should be free...
No wonder the world is in the state it's in, when everyone expects the world to owe them a living!!
Worth,
You are telling me all sorts of things that I might do, could have done, etc.etc. I have done Worth. And have done with it. I am telling you that even the folks who only liked 20 or 30% of my resources will either use them anyway or will be unable for lack of knowledge to incorporate them into their own set up. I honestly do not understand some people expecting my resources to be the answer to their prayers (for money or for free) and replace their existing Resources. I mean if I send you 100 styles tomorrow, would it not be fair (and intelligent) to assume you might like a certain percentage of those 100 styles which you would then incorporate in your Resources set up ?
And as to those who did provide feedback, check page 3 of my webpages:
http://pasounds.intropagina.nl/user-com ... urces.html
I regret though that you find it necessary to side with those and those forum moderators who go to extremes, like banning me for life, because I had expected some sort of contribution. I also resent the fact that you keep on hammering on the same string that is that my endeavours are somehow commercial. If someone does something for me I generally like to do something in return, be it a bunch of flowers for the misssus or whatever.......
You are telling me all sorts of things that I might do, could have done, etc.etc. I have done Worth. And have done with it. I am telling you that even the folks who only liked 20 or 30% of my resources will either use them anyway or will be unable for lack of knowledge to incorporate them into their own set up. I honestly do not understand some people expecting my resources to be the answer to their prayers (for money or for free) and replace their existing Resources. I mean if I send you 100 styles tomorrow, would it not be fair (and intelligent) to assume you might like a certain percentage of those 100 styles which you would then incorporate in your Resources set up ?
And as to those who did provide feedback, check page 3 of my webpages:
http://pasounds.intropagina.nl/user-com ... urces.html
I regret though that you find it necessary to side with those and those forum moderators who go to extremes, like banning me for life, because I had expected some sort of contribution. I also resent the fact that you keep on hammering on the same string that is that my endeavours are somehow commercial. If someone does something for me I generally like to do something in return, be it a bunch of flowers for the misssus or whatever.......
john and Miden , i am not trying to start a row with either of you. Miden you dont know me but i was one of the Authors of the Korg arranger Secrets DVD that was sold to many of the members here. I know what it is to put in many hundreds of hours of work and spend my own money to provide a not for profit benefit for fellow musicians around the world. so i am speaking to John not in any way to attack him but to hopefully encourage him to use his time energy and skills in a way that wont leave a sour taste in his mouth. He does not need defending. And he does not have to pay any attention to my post if it is of no use to him.
John if you werent looking for some form of financial compensation then why ask for a donation at all ?It cost you nothing but your time to produce this work and from what i have read you did the work for your own benefit in the first place anyway so it cost you nothing right ? If you wanted feedback on the work you did then ask for feedback. I have already pointed out that you can still do that.
All i am saying is that if being finacially compensated is not any part of the issue for you then dont ask for any finacial compensation whatsoever . You dont need money to develope performances for your own benefit right ???
But if compensation/recognition or what ever term you want to use is important to you , then dont be too suprised if people did not pay for your work after they downloaded it when you left them with no obligation to pay or provide feedback.
Even Miden did not pay or provide feed back to you after downloading your product and deciding he didnt want it. He only did so after you posted up your disappointment here on the forum. And he probably like many others who did the same is one of your supporters !!
And just so we are clear i am one of your supporters too even though i did not download your product or think it was of any use to me.
You should not be surprised if forum administrators get tetchy about you 'selling' a product ( in their view) that they did not grant permission or invite you to sell to their members. I am surprised that you were surprised.
You said you wanted feedback on the work you had done and i suggested you email all the people that you provided your software to and ask for feedback. Its not difficult if that is the main driver for you. That feedback might help you in furture ventures.
Lets not kid each other. You did a hell of a lot of work and you quite rightfully feel you should get some form of recognition or compensation for it. All i was pointing out is that there are more forthright ways of achieving both .
If you have to ask for a voluntary donation , then guess what ? it is nolonger voluntary .......
As i understand it you have now stopped asking for a 'voluntary' donation and now wont distribute your product unless people pay for it for whatever price you have determined.
So now you are sending out mixed messages. Either this thing is a commercial venture or it isnt. which is it ?
Anyway i am sorry if you were offended if i thought it was a commercial venture but you can understand my confusion.
All i am saying in the end is that if you make it clear what you expect from people when you 'give/sell' them something , you and they are less likely to disappointed with the outcome.
You cant hear the tone of my comments but genuinely they are not meant to offend you although its clear you dont like what i have said so far. Pick from what i have said whatever bits you can use and ignor the rest
Best of luck in your endeavours.
Worth
John if you werent looking for some form of financial compensation then why ask for a donation at all ?It cost you nothing but your time to produce this work and from what i have read you did the work for your own benefit in the first place anyway so it cost you nothing right ? If you wanted feedback on the work you did then ask for feedback. I have already pointed out that you can still do that.
All i am saying is that if being finacially compensated is not any part of the issue for you then dont ask for any finacial compensation whatsoever . You dont need money to develope performances for your own benefit right ???
But if compensation/recognition or what ever term you want to use is important to you , then dont be too suprised if people did not pay for your work after they downloaded it when you left them with no obligation to pay or provide feedback.
Even Miden did not pay or provide feed back to you after downloading your product and deciding he didnt want it. He only did so after you posted up your disappointment here on the forum. And he probably like many others who did the same is one of your supporters !!
And just so we are clear i am one of your supporters too even though i did not download your product or think it was of any use to me.
You should not be surprised if forum administrators get tetchy about you 'selling' a product ( in their view) that they did not grant permission or invite you to sell to their members. I am surprised that you were surprised.
You said you wanted feedback on the work you had done and i suggested you email all the people that you provided your software to and ask for feedback. Its not difficult if that is the main driver for you. That feedback might help you in furture ventures.
Lets not kid each other. You did a hell of a lot of work and you quite rightfully feel you should get some form of recognition or compensation for it. All i was pointing out is that there are more forthright ways of achieving both .
If you have to ask for a voluntary donation , then guess what ? it is nolonger voluntary .......
As i understand it you have now stopped asking for a 'voluntary' donation and now wont distribute your product unless people pay for it for whatever price you have determined.
So now you are sending out mixed messages. Either this thing is a commercial venture or it isnt. which is it ?
Anyway i am sorry if you were offended if i thought it was a commercial venture but you can understand my confusion.
All i am saying in the end is that if you make it clear what you expect from people when you 'give/sell' them something , you and they are less likely to disappointed with the outcome.
You cant hear the tone of my comments but genuinely they are not meant to offend you although its clear you dont like what i have said so far. Pick from what i have said whatever bits you can use and ignor the rest
Best of luck in your endeavours.
Worth
Actually this is untrue...Whilst the timing of the posts MAY have indicated that, I actually posted feedback on the package AFTER I had actually tried it, to see if it was of any value to me and then to pay for it, if it was.worth wrote: Even Miden did not pay or provide feed back to you after downloading your product and deciding he didnt want it. He only did so after you posted up your disappointment here on the forum.
At least I DID try it and not just criticise it, or dismiss it "out of hand" only because it was not FREE!!
Oh and Worth, I did know you were one of the people behind the video (I personally found it as not really very useful at all, as most of what was covered I knew already) but I am sure there were many who did like it.
Much the same as this package from John. It was not for me, but it was still a very good and well programmed resource.
And, as I recall this video WAS promoted on these forums, NOT as a freebie, but as a paid for product!!
In fact it is still is up there as a sticky, as a COMMERCIAL product for sale!!
So I am at a bit of a loss why you are criticising John for doing similar and asking for payment...
And there is NO mixed messages about offering the software to people to try for free and THEN make a donation.
As I said this way of operating goes way back to BBS services, and is still alive and well today in the world of 3rd party software!!!
It is how 3rd party developers survive!!!
Dennis
Hello Worth,
Thank you for your indepth response. However,there are so many wrong assumptions in your last entry that I hardly know where to start. And then I did not even know about your DVD project which as Dennis points out is very commercial and apparently on forums as well.
Some of your comments:
John if you werent looking for some form of financial compensation then why ask for a donation at all ?It cost you nothing but your time to produce this work and from what i have read you did the work for your own benefit in the first place anyway so it cost you nothing right ? If you wanted feedback on the work you did then ask for feedback
I would have considered a donation, and still do, a form of recognistion and appreciation for what I have done, even if I set out to do so for myself. It cost me 80 hours approx. and I cannot understand why anyone would like to share the fruits of my labour without doing anything in return.
But if compensation/recognition or what ever term you want to use is important to you , then dont be too suprised if people did not pay for your work after they downloaded it when you left them with no obligation to pay or provide feedback.
This is the very attitude which I am criticising. I wholeheartedly disagree.
Even Miden did not pay or provide feed back to you after downloading your product and deciding he didnt want it. He only did so after you posted up your disappointment here on the forum. And he probably like many others who did the same is one of your supporters !!
Wrong. Dennis omitted to mention that he did pay me, though not in hard currency. He has got a PA-2X and he was the guy who sorted out everything I had programmed on my PA-500m and with lots of patience went thru my programming and pinpointed the flaws etc.etc. He also provided ample feedback, see a.o. my webpages ;
http://pasounds.intropagina.nl/user-com ... urces.html
And just so we are clear i am one of your supporters too even though i did not download your product or think it was of any use to me.
Puzzling, to say the least. Why would someone so well versed in Korg PA arranger keyboards, even being a “supporter of mine “ not be curious or interested to download my product and form an opinion of his own. This is absolutely bafffling.
You should not be surprised if forum administrators get tetchy about you 'selling' a product ( in their view) that they did not grant permission or invite you to sell to their members. I am surprised that you were surprised.
From what I just learnt about your DVD and its promotion you did worse than me,but how many more times do I have to tell anyone that offering software on the appropriate forum and asking for a voluntary donation is NOT selling, is NOT commercial and does NOT run counter to the purpose of such a forum
.If you have to ask for a voluntary donation , then guess what ? it is nolonger voluntary .......
That is outright nonsense. My English may not be as good as yours but asking for a voluntary donation is what is says it is: voluntary.
As i understand it you have now stopped asking for a 'voluntary' donation and now wont distribute your product unless people pay for it for whatever price you have determined.
That is correct. I refuse to be taken for granted, not that it will make any great difference. My resources are out in the wild and will circulate globally in the course of the year no doubt. If you bother to read my webpages you will notice that I have upped the game to, steady yourself to your seat, 25 euros.
So now you are sending out mixed messages. Either this thing is a commercial venture or it isnt. which is it ?
If in your English this means commercial ,so be it. I beg to differ.
All i am saying in the end is that if you make it clear what you expect from people when you 'give/sell' them something , you and they are less likely to disappointed with the outcome.
You have got a point here. I never anticpated though that people would be so tight-fisted or worse, waiting to get things on the sly.
You cant hear the tone of my comments but genuinely they are not meant to offend you although its clear you dont like what i have said so far. Pick from what i have said whatever bits you can use and ignor the rest
Thank you. I will take your word for it and not be offended, assuming you mean well.
best wishes,John
Thank you for your indepth response. However,there are so many wrong assumptions in your last entry that I hardly know where to start. And then I did not even know about your DVD project which as Dennis points out is very commercial and apparently on forums as well.
Some of your comments:
John if you werent looking for some form of financial compensation then why ask for a donation at all ?It cost you nothing but your time to produce this work and from what i have read you did the work for your own benefit in the first place anyway so it cost you nothing right ? If you wanted feedback on the work you did then ask for feedback
I would have considered a donation, and still do, a form of recognistion and appreciation for what I have done, even if I set out to do so for myself. It cost me 80 hours approx. and I cannot understand why anyone would like to share the fruits of my labour without doing anything in return.
But if compensation/recognition or what ever term you want to use is important to you , then dont be too suprised if people did not pay for your work after they downloaded it when you left them with no obligation to pay or provide feedback.
This is the very attitude which I am criticising. I wholeheartedly disagree.
Even Miden did not pay or provide feed back to you after downloading your product and deciding he didnt want it. He only did so after you posted up your disappointment here on the forum. And he probably like many others who did the same is one of your supporters !!
Wrong. Dennis omitted to mention that he did pay me, though not in hard currency. He has got a PA-2X and he was the guy who sorted out everything I had programmed on my PA-500m and with lots of patience went thru my programming and pinpointed the flaws etc.etc. He also provided ample feedback, see a.o. my webpages ;
http://pasounds.intropagina.nl/user-com ... urces.html
And just so we are clear i am one of your supporters too even though i did not download your product or think it was of any use to me.
Puzzling, to say the least. Why would someone so well versed in Korg PA arranger keyboards, even being a “supporter of mine “ not be curious or interested to download my product and form an opinion of his own. This is absolutely bafffling.
You should not be surprised if forum administrators get tetchy about you 'selling' a product ( in their view) that they did not grant permission or invite you to sell to their members. I am surprised that you were surprised.
From what I just learnt about your DVD and its promotion you did worse than me,but how many more times do I have to tell anyone that offering software on the appropriate forum and asking for a voluntary donation is NOT selling, is NOT commercial and does NOT run counter to the purpose of such a forum
.If you have to ask for a voluntary donation , then guess what ? it is nolonger voluntary .......
That is outright nonsense. My English may not be as good as yours but asking for a voluntary donation is what is says it is: voluntary.
As i understand it you have now stopped asking for a 'voluntary' donation and now wont distribute your product unless people pay for it for whatever price you have determined.
That is correct. I refuse to be taken for granted, not that it will make any great difference. My resources are out in the wild and will circulate globally in the course of the year no doubt. If you bother to read my webpages you will notice that I have upped the game to, steady yourself to your seat, 25 euros.
So now you are sending out mixed messages. Either this thing is a commercial venture or it isnt. which is it ?
If in your English this means commercial ,so be it. I beg to differ.
All i am saying in the end is that if you make it clear what you expect from people when you 'give/sell' them something , you and they are less likely to disappointed with the outcome.
You have got a point here. I never anticpated though that people would be so tight-fisted or worse, waiting to get things on the sly.
You cant hear the tone of my comments but genuinely they are not meant to offend you although its clear you dont like what i have said so far. Pick from what i have said whatever bits you can use and ignor the rest
Thank you. I will take your word for it and not be offended, assuming you mean well.
best wishes,John
The Korg Arranger Secrets Project was a not for profit venture. We made and priced the DVD's with full consultation with the members of the forum that expressed their interest in the DVD's.We asked them extensively what they wanted and worked out how many dvd's needed to be produced and what it would cost to produce and distribute them. only our initial costs were returned. neither myself or Rob recieved any compensation no for the time and effort it took to film ,edit andf distribute the DVD's and get the project running. It was only after we had sought full consultation with the forum members that were intersted that we paid for out of our own money the services of the demonstrator and the copying and packageing and distribution etc. we spent a lot more than 90 hours of our time to provide this benefit to the forum members .
I am nolonger involved in the sale of the DVD because after many months i had no time to myself. it was left to the other originators and distributors to continue to make it available for those members that still wanted it at the same cost to cover distribution.
The point i was making and that i hope john accepts is that there better ways to do what he is doing to avoid being disappounted with the results.
i was not and am not critiscing him.
I am nolonger involved in the sale of the DVD because after many months i had no time to myself. it was left to the other originators and distributors to continue to make it available for those members that still wanted it at the same cost to cover distribution.
The point i was making and that i hope john accepts is that there better ways to do what he is doing to avoid being disappounted with the results.
i was not and am not critiscing him.
Worth I did not even hint that it was a Profit Making venture...I was merely pointing out that the DVD project was in a similar vein to John's.worth wrote:The Korg Arranger Secrets Project was a not for profit venture. We made and priced the DVD's with full consultation with the members of the forum that expressed their interest in the DVD's.We asked them extensively what they wanted and worked out how many dvd's needed to be produced and what it would cost to produce and distribute them. only our initial costs were returned. neither myself or Rob recieved any compensation no for the time and effort it took to film ,edit andf distribute the DVD's and get the project running. It was only after we had sought full consultation with the forum members that were intersted that we paid for out of our own money the services of the demonstrator and the copying and packageing and distribution etc. we spent a lot more than 90 hours of our time to provide this benefit to the forum members .
I am nolonger involved in the sale of the DVD because after many months i had no time to myself. it was left to the other originators and distributors to continue to make it available for those members that still wanted it at the same cost to cover distribution.
The point i was making and that i hope john accepts is that there better ways to do what he is doing to avoid being disappounted with the results.
i was not and am not critiscing him.
Although the one clear difference is that you did not offer for people to download it (or get a DVD) for free and then if they like it, make a donation.
No, in your case it was commercial, to a point, in that it was a 100% for sale item, and therefore, in my view, outside the Freeware, Trialware Donation-ware options that John provided.
Your comments certainly seemed like criticism, surrounded by platitudes,
BUT as John is prepared to take you at your word that no criticism (tacit, or explicit) was intended, then then I too believe that there as no malice in your comments.
Time to move on perhaps
Dennis
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Actually Denis, it was, it was offered first and then pay, thats how i got it.
It was a big project, Rob, James, Chris, Worth and few others i think, i was
also offered part which couldnt take at the time. Most of the DVDs were
mailed out without payments recieved. The whole pricing was consulted
with every single member here on the forum as i remember.
It was a big project, Rob, James, Chris, Worth and few others i think, i was
also offered part which couldnt take at the time. Most of the DVDs were
mailed out without payments recieved. The whole pricing was consulted
with every single member here on the forum as i remember.
http://www.basaristudios.com
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL.
2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
Cubase 8.5 Pro. Windows 7 X64. ASUS SaberTooth X99. Intel I7 5820K. ASUS GTX 960 Strix OC 2GB. 4x8 GB G.SKILL.
2 850 PRO 256GB SSDs. 1 850 EVO 1TB SSD. Acustica: Nebula Server 3 Ultimate, Murano, Magenta 3, Navy, Titanium.
I don't think John's project can be compared to to the DVD tutorial project. From the posts that I've read before seems like a lot of forum members participated by giving their opinions about the concepts, pricing..etc. So there was a very specific production direction aimed at a lot of people who knew what they wanted , what they expected, and what kind of price they were going to be obligated to pay. Even korg approved it and posted the link to the product on their own official website. I bought one myself from Frank (audioworks) and also left positive comments about it. Nothing indepth, but very useful for people like me who owned an arranger keyboard for the first time.
The whole thing was so ligit. A professionally made product...properly advertised...and properly priced. The best $30 i've spent so far.
On the other hand John's project went under a lot of confusing changes in the span of two weeks. First it started as a personal project, then it turned into a shareware/voluntary basis donation, then into a shareware/20 Euros suggested donation, and finally into a fully commercial project in such a short time. The timing of the post is the most critical part. You posted it on December 17th. it's basically the busiest time of the year for most people around the world. Just because you sent 100 e-mails to people , it doesn't mean all those actually downloaded the software, and then loaded into the keyboard. Then, they had all the time during their christmas/new year celebrations/vacations to sit down and try out the performances and start mailing checks. You're lucky if even 20 people got around to even test it. For the most part the file is still attached to the e-mail you sent them, or just sitting on their desktop somewhere...some dont' even know how to load the file,, even if you wrote the best instruction manual in the world. Some didn't hear any difference and some did.
You managed to receive 20% feedback and some small donations. You even had a member to sort out performances on his keyboard for you for free. That sounds like a very good success rate for a two weeks period, knowing that you never consulted your project with anyone in here. You didn't provide one single demo of your work against the factory performances. You just asked people to contact you and you started shooting e-mails around the world..and then you want to be compensated and you want to be compensated now!
Everything is wrong with how you introduced your work, knowing that you did all this already once before and you were frustrated with the results.
Why can't you make some audio demos of your project that could describe your work best. Example: Make a recording of a factory Sax performance, then, make another one of a sax performance that you've created. people will listen to A, and then to B...I would've totally listened to a demo and heard the diff instantly and left a comment. There's no need for me to have the entire file and then be put in a uncomfortable situation where i'm expected to return a timely feedback as well as a donation because you spent 80 hours.
Make it simple. You're a long time member of this forum, and you've met the requirements for advertising a product. It's all written in plain English in the FAQ section. If you've produced something, dont' play a game with it. Introduce it with good demos, or even a few file sample, set a price and that's it. If you cant' make demos, ask someone to do it for you....I'll do it for you ...Just drop this donation thing..If you're confident it's good, sell it!
The whole thing was so ligit. A professionally made product...properly advertised...and properly priced. The best $30 i've spent so far.
On the other hand John's project went under a lot of confusing changes in the span of two weeks. First it started as a personal project, then it turned into a shareware/voluntary basis donation, then into a shareware/20 Euros suggested donation, and finally into a fully commercial project in such a short time. The timing of the post is the most critical part. You posted it on December 17th. it's basically the busiest time of the year for most people around the world. Just because you sent 100 e-mails to people , it doesn't mean all those actually downloaded the software, and then loaded into the keyboard. Then, they had all the time during their christmas/new year celebrations/vacations to sit down and try out the performances and start mailing checks. You're lucky if even 20 people got around to even test it. For the most part the file is still attached to the e-mail you sent them, or just sitting on their desktop somewhere...some dont' even know how to load the file,, even if you wrote the best instruction manual in the world. Some didn't hear any difference and some did.
You managed to receive 20% feedback and some small donations. You even had a member to sort out performances on his keyboard for you for free. That sounds like a very good success rate for a two weeks period, knowing that you never consulted your project with anyone in here. You didn't provide one single demo of your work against the factory performances. You just asked people to contact you and you started shooting e-mails around the world..and then you want to be compensated and you want to be compensated now!
Everything is wrong with how you introduced your work, knowing that you did all this already once before and you were frustrated with the results.
Why can't you make some audio demos of your project that could describe your work best. Example: Make a recording of a factory Sax performance, then, make another one of a sax performance that you've created. people will listen to A, and then to B...I would've totally listened to a demo and heard the diff instantly and left a comment. There's no need for me to have the entire file and then be put in a uncomfortable situation where i'm expected to return a timely feedback as well as a donation because you spent 80 hours.
Make it simple. You're a long time member of this forum, and you've met the requirements for advertising a product. It's all written in plain English in the FAQ section. If you've produced something, dont' play a game with it. Introduce it with good demos, or even a few file sample, set a price and that's it. If you cant' make demos, ask someone to do it for you....I'll do it for you ...Just drop this donation thing..If you're confident it's good, sell it!
Last edited by Sam CA on Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sam
OK...time for me to speak up.
First of all to John, It is super that you are talented enough to create new performances ect for the Korg...and I applaud your efforts. I do personally think the Korg performances suck on the PA2XPRO. I am glad you created something for yourself that you like! I got the idea that is why you spent 80 + hours???? YES? ...OR is there something behind the scenes here??
From the original post...it looked to me like you did this for yourself? Then decided others may benifit as well. And noble thought and idea for sure.
My kind of forum member.
I DID NOT originally download the files. I did not have time to mess with it and I was concerned it was done for A DIFFERENT KB than mine!!!! Later it was mentioned that there was a version for the PA2XPRO, BUT it was based on the PA500 Musicant...which I think is a Oriental version?
So my interest was not as keen as f it were something based on PA2XPRO and for non Orienta market.
Still I had some interest to see if a large portion of it was something that fit my style of music. Love sones, slow ballads, musical theatre, standards, classic Rock from 50's, 60's and intrumental pieces of all kinds.
So, I went ahead and ask John for a download of it, thinking I would load it and see what it was...more of curousity than need.
AT THAT TIME I told John I was going to try to make time to load it and IF I liked it and was going to make use of it I sure would do a donation as I am not a freeloader!
I have not had time to load it...and now I am selling my PA2XPRO anyways.
I am not a cheapskate...and I do not want to be put in that basket with others that may be.
Now for the emotional part...I have felt llike we have been prodded and shamed to donate even if we are not using it...but did download it. Sorry, not trying to be an Ass...but that's the feeling I get...right or wrong.
Was it a round about way to get the donations without really selling it?? I do not know. Only John knows that answer.
OK..All that said....
So, I guess my question is...are there that many folks that downloaded it...and ARE USING lots of the content for there playing? Some may say it's nice work...BUT may not really love it or more importantly use it (keep it in).
Anyone that downloaded it...and likes it and uses it (a major portion of it) should donate to John as a curtisy AND more importantly you got something that makes your KB better and your enjoyment better. It is certainly much more than a style or 2 or a new sound or a couple performances..Isn't it? It was a major effort. If lots of the folks that downloaded it LOVE it and use it,then your dissappointment in the donation level is vaid. Do you know how many share your love of it?
And do you even know how many have loaded it?
Another example, I don't currently have a Yamaha arranger, BUT I do download free (totally free) styles and midi's from different sites in case I later would like to try them out, IF I get a Tyros later.
So, John, just because someone downloaded it..does not mean they should donate. If they check it out and think it's cool but don't really use it or a major portion of it why should they spend money on it? Maybe a small group can use it because of the way it is, maybe it is the way the PA shuld have been?? A question I can not answer, although a valid one.
So, if your expectation was that most people that downloaded it was going to donate, your expectation was in error. What you would hope is that it is so general purpose, and MANY love it and MANY would donate to reward your efforts.
If it were a commercial product:
1) It better be great and apply to the intended market
2) Pretty bug free
3) LOTS of demo's available for folks to see if it's what they want before paying for it.
4) Be really tuned for each PA that it is intended for
5) Well documented
The only thing else for me to say is:
If I load it and If I use it...I will donate to your efforts as I will be using your work.
Still. I commend your efforts to do the work! And I hope you enjoy it yourself for your own KB as that is the real reason you did it??
Thanks for the opporunity to try something different John....
I may still make time to check it out.
Lee
First of all to John, It is super that you are talented enough to create new performances ect for the Korg...and I applaud your efforts. I do personally think the Korg performances suck on the PA2XPRO. I am glad you created something for yourself that you like! I got the idea that is why you spent 80 + hours???? YES? ...OR is there something behind the scenes here??
From the original post...it looked to me like you did this for yourself? Then decided others may benifit as well. And noble thought and idea for sure.
My kind of forum member.
I DID NOT originally download the files. I did not have time to mess with it and I was concerned it was done for A DIFFERENT KB than mine!!!! Later it was mentioned that there was a version for the PA2XPRO, BUT it was based on the PA500 Musicant...which I think is a Oriental version?
So my interest was not as keen as f it were something based on PA2XPRO and for non Orienta market.
Still I had some interest to see if a large portion of it was something that fit my style of music. Love sones, slow ballads, musical theatre, standards, classic Rock from 50's, 60's and intrumental pieces of all kinds.
So, I went ahead and ask John for a download of it, thinking I would load it and see what it was...more of curousity than need.
AT THAT TIME I told John I was going to try to make time to load it and IF I liked it and was going to make use of it I sure would do a donation as I am not a freeloader!
I have not had time to load it...and now I am selling my PA2XPRO anyways.
I am not a cheapskate...and I do not want to be put in that basket with others that may be.
Now for the emotional part...I have felt llike we have been prodded and shamed to donate even if we are not using it...but did download it. Sorry, not trying to be an Ass...but that's the feeling I get...right or wrong.
Was it a round about way to get the donations without really selling it?? I do not know. Only John knows that answer.
OK..All that said....
So, I guess my question is...are there that many folks that downloaded it...and ARE USING lots of the content for there playing? Some may say it's nice work...BUT may not really love it or more importantly use it (keep it in).
Anyone that downloaded it...and likes it and uses it (a major portion of it) should donate to John as a curtisy AND more importantly you got something that makes your KB better and your enjoyment better. It is certainly much more than a style or 2 or a new sound or a couple performances..Isn't it? It was a major effort. If lots of the folks that downloaded it LOVE it and use it,then your dissappointment in the donation level is vaid. Do you know how many share your love of it?
And do you even know how many have loaded it?
Another example, I don't currently have a Yamaha arranger, BUT I do download free (totally free) styles and midi's from different sites in case I later would like to try them out, IF I get a Tyros later.
So, John, just because someone downloaded it..does not mean they should donate. If they check it out and think it's cool but don't really use it or a major portion of it why should they spend money on it? Maybe a small group can use it because of the way it is, maybe it is the way the PA shuld have been?? A question I can not answer, although a valid one.
So, if your expectation was that most people that downloaded it was going to donate, your expectation was in error. What you would hope is that it is so general purpose, and MANY love it and MANY would donate to reward your efforts.
If it were a commercial product:
1) It better be great and apply to the intended market
2) Pretty bug free
3) LOTS of demo's available for folks to see if it's what they want before paying for it.
4) Be really tuned for each PA that it is intended for
5) Well documented
The only thing else for me to say is:
If I load it and If I use it...I will donate to your efforts as I will be using your work.
Still. I commend your efforts to do the work! And I hope you enjoy it yourself for your own KB as that is the real reason you did it??
Thanks for the opporunity to try something different John....
I may still make time to check it out.
Lee
Sam,
"...Everything is wrong with how you introduced your work, knowing that you did all this already once before and you were frustrated with the results. ..."
Fine, let's just leave it at that as far as our opinions are concerned.
.... If you cant' make demos, ask someone to do it for you....I'll do it for you ...
You said it. It is on its way as we speak.......
Lee,
"From the original post...it looked to me like you did this for yourself? Then decided others may benifit as well. And noble thought and idea for sure. My kind of forum member. "
That was and still is the starting point Lee.
....based on the PA500 Musicant...which I think is a Oriental version?
So my interest was not as keen as f it were something based on PA2XPRO and for non Orienta market.
Still I had some interest to see if a large portion of it was something that fit my style of music. Love sones, slow ballads, musical theatre, standards, classic Rock from 50's, 60's and intrumental pieces of all kinds....
Forgive me for saying so Lee bu this is someting I find fault with. Throughout the internet you can find that the Musikant is a basic PA-500 produced for the German market with extra samples and styles geared towards this market. Actually the type of music styles you are looking for happens to be there in abundance. ( I will send you something via WETRANSFER to clariy).
..Now for the emotional part...I have felt llike we have been prodded and shamed to donate even if we are not using it...but did download it. Sorry, not trying to be an Ass...but that's the feeling I get...right or wrong.....
Very wrong and I am sad that all of the things I have said and done should lead you to such a conclusion.
...So, John, just because someone downloaded it..does not mean they should donate. If they check it out and think it's cool but don't really use it or a major portion of it why should they spend money on it? Maybe a small group can use it because of the way it is, maybe it is the way the PA shuld have been?? A question I can not answer, although a valid one....
Touching upon the essence of this whole story this is Lee. Let me explain one last time. Any pre-supposition of mal intent, commercialism on my behalf is ill-founded. That much should be clear for starters. Also my tremendous involvement and hours spent.
On the receiving end it turned out that despite help form others the conversion towards PA-2X falls short of expectations. The conversion to PA-800 is fairly successful all the same. Of course major results when using a 500 or better even 500M.
TASTE.... there is no accounting for tastes. I have had mails over the last 12 months (so that include my prior set in May) saying I see you have done a great job but alas it is not to my taste. Fine, I happen to have a rather middle-of-the-road taste.
EXPECTATION: what can you expect, either for free or commercially buying software such as styles, midi files, performances etc. I mean I like most of you downloaded the Latin stuff by Manual Dorantes which is truly impressive, but some of those styles ( creatively done as they may be) don't do much for me or leave me cold. (apart from the technical aspect that is). So If I re-arrange ALL performances onboard as well as re-arranging the complete internal style memory it is totally absurd to expect that you will retain my Resources as standard in your PA and fill it up with a couple of things you already had residing in your own set up.
(with the odd execption of course.) It is perfectly legit to assume that people will go through all of my resources extensively and in the end return their own set up and fill it up with sounds, styles, perf. etc. that they liked in my new resources. I think we can at least agree on that.
....The only thing else for me to say is:
If I load it and If I use it...I will donate to your efforts as I will be using your work...
If everone had said that this whole discussion would have been non-existent.
....
Still. I commend your efforts to do the work!......
Thank you.
John
"...Everything is wrong with how you introduced your work, knowing that you did all this already once before and you were frustrated with the results. ..."
Fine, let's just leave it at that as far as our opinions are concerned.
.... If you cant' make demos, ask someone to do it for you....I'll do it for you ...
You said it. It is on its way as we speak.......
Lee,
"From the original post...it looked to me like you did this for yourself? Then decided others may benifit as well. And noble thought and idea for sure. My kind of forum member. "
That was and still is the starting point Lee.
....based on the PA500 Musicant...which I think is a Oriental version?
So my interest was not as keen as f it were something based on PA2XPRO and for non Orienta market.
Still I had some interest to see if a large portion of it was something that fit my style of music. Love sones, slow ballads, musical theatre, standards, classic Rock from 50's, 60's and intrumental pieces of all kinds....
Forgive me for saying so Lee bu this is someting I find fault with. Throughout the internet you can find that the Musikant is a basic PA-500 produced for the German market with extra samples and styles geared towards this market. Actually the type of music styles you are looking for happens to be there in abundance. ( I will send you something via WETRANSFER to clariy).
..Now for the emotional part...I have felt llike we have been prodded and shamed to donate even if we are not using it...but did download it. Sorry, not trying to be an Ass...but that's the feeling I get...right or wrong.....
Very wrong and I am sad that all of the things I have said and done should lead you to such a conclusion.
...So, John, just because someone downloaded it..does not mean they should donate. If they check it out and think it's cool but don't really use it or a major portion of it why should they spend money on it? Maybe a small group can use it because of the way it is, maybe it is the way the PA shuld have been?? A question I can not answer, although a valid one....
Touching upon the essence of this whole story this is Lee. Let me explain one last time. Any pre-supposition of mal intent, commercialism on my behalf is ill-founded. That much should be clear for starters. Also my tremendous involvement and hours spent.
On the receiving end it turned out that despite help form others the conversion towards PA-2X falls short of expectations. The conversion to PA-800 is fairly successful all the same. Of course major results when using a 500 or better even 500M.
TASTE.... there is no accounting for tastes. I have had mails over the last 12 months (so that include my prior set in May) saying I see you have done a great job but alas it is not to my taste. Fine, I happen to have a rather middle-of-the-road taste.
EXPECTATION: what can you expect, either for free or commercially buying software such as styles, midi files, performances etc. I mean I like most of you downloaded the Latin stuff by Manual Dorantes which is truly impressive, but some of those styles ( creatively done as they may be) don't do much for me or leave me cold. (apart from the technical aspect that is). So If I re-arrange ALL performances onboard as well as re-arranging the complete internal style memory it is totally absurd to expect that you will retain my Resources as standard in your PA and fill it up with a couple of things you already had residing in your own set up.
(with the odd execption of course.) It is perfectly legit to assume that people will go through all of my resources extensively and in the end return their own set up and fill it up with sounds, styles, perf. etc. that they liked in my new resources. I think we can at least agree on that.
....The only thing else for me to say is:
If I load it and If I use it...I will donate to your efforts as I will be using your work...
If everone had said that this whole discussion would have been non-existent.
....
Still. I commend your efforts to do the work!......
Thank you.
John
Lee,
I have not sent you anything for the PA-2X. Besides I think I already did send you the BKP file for the PA-2X, and even the seperate files , or not ?
It has been 'optimised " but apparently results are disappointing. I cannot
check for lack of the instrument. What I can guarantee you is that the files and the BKP is SAFE to load (provided of course you have made a good BKP back up file of your own data ). So no worries there.
I sent you the demo I made with my former PA-500 in June, as well as some personal recordings to share with you the kind of music I make and like, and hence my programming is in line with that kind of music.......
greetings,
John
I have not sent you anything for the PA-2X. Besides I think I already did send you the BKP file for the PA-2X, and even the seperate files , or not ?
It has been 'optimised " but apparently results are disappointing. I cannot
check for lack of the instrument. What I can guarantee you is that the files and the BKP is SAFE to load (provided of course you have made a good BKP back up file of your own data ). So no worries there.
I sent you the demo I made with my former PA-500 in June, as well as some personal recordings to share with you the kind of music I make and like, and hence my programming is in line with that kind of music.......
greetings,
John