KRONOS Rack?

[vEddY]

I may have expressed myself badly.
They trust their masterkeyboard, pedals, etc.
The whole discussion is about: how many sliders and faders to put on the Kronos rack. Are they all necessary to "rack people"?

Hmm, there seems to be a lot of "bad expressions" here then. Because I thought you were talking about live performance when you were talking about sound quality and presence. I was thinking about "on stage". No sane person would want to have much to do with a rack unit in terms of fiddling around, agreed

In studio, people will probably fiddle with controls on a rack unit more then on stage. But still, way less then with a keyboard. I believe that's a "pretty well balanced judgement"

[SpIdErWeB]

faders (for instance) are necessary for the sound, since Karma is an integrated part of the sound in the Kronos...

I wouldn't use the Karma without faders, knobs and buttons...

Phil

[ozy]

faders (for instance) are necessary for the sound, since Karma is an integrated part of the sound in the Kronos...
I wouldn't use the Karma without faders, knobs and buttons...
Phil

faders are necessary for karma,

faders are necessary for hammond emulations as well,

and for mixing,

but ANY master keyboard will give you faders today.

What's the point of having them on the rack?

(Please remember that faders can't be placed ANYWHERE, there's a circuit component below the fader's surface).

Faders mean money, and mean space.

[removing them means software revision, of course. But the link between ANY paramenter and a midi CC is always there. There's just to DISABLE software components, not to ADD them].

If a Kronos rack needs to exist (and I think it does),

including real estate for faders would make it impossibly large.

IMHO,

the best choice is excluding faders (AND the vector joystick) and creating a compact rack for those who run sound control from a master keyboard.

That would cut the cost and space (let's try to keep it under or within 5U, and rackmountable - the M3m's odd shape has made carpenters around the world rich, and musicians hysterical) and would appeal to people who don't CHOOSE a synth for LIFE but want to use many.

I know that could sound bad to real believers, but I'd like Kronos EPs and Wavestation and legacy "Korgish" sounds, whil keeping other timbres from Kurz (better strings and pads and good EPS) and others from Yamaha (better winds).

Replacing faders with knobs - ase seen in the aboove photoshop - wouldn't cut much into the cost and the real estate needed, so it's not a really smart option.

Imagine a 2000 quids ($ or eur, alas, being equated in Korg's financial universe) fee for accessing all of the Kronos sonic power, without giving up on the feeling and sounds of your nord stage, or pc388, or prophet, or mc3000, or a90, or whatever.

Am I alone?

Are we "technological atheists" so few?

Is everybody on Earth "denominational"? "Love the Korg sell the Yammy", "love the Yammi sell the Roland", "in the Kronos out everything else"?

I don't think so.

[EvilDragon]

The best way about Kronos would be making a tabletop mountable to the rack. This way two distinct crowds can be satisfied - the rack users, and in-studio fellas who might need some hands-on control that might not be available from their MIDI controller (vector joystick, ribbon, for example).

Having some sliders and knobs and buttons around could also be nice for table-top users. They could be somewhat smaller size so they all can fit. All in all I think it would be useful.


Any kind of software revision for Kronos rack would be doubling the job on every possible OS release... I might be even more welcoming to the idea of using a slightly smaller touchscreen (6", for example) instead of cutting on the controllers...




$2000 would be awesome, yep!

[gjvti]

...but ANY master keyboard will give you faders today.....

... but not any keyboard controller can send sysex necessary to manipulate karma parameters, for example, with their large amount of values. In fact I know only two hardware devices capable of sending sysex
1) Novation ReMote series - doesn't support Korg 16 byte messages
2) Something form CME (Bitstream? - don't remember correctly) - BUT I never had any response to my questions form CME nor any of it resellers - so very untrusted solution obviously.
Anyone can name Korg sysex compatible hardware controller with sliders/knobs?

[vEddY]

The best way about Kronos would be making a tabletop mountable to the rack. This way two distinct crowds can be satisfied - the rack users, and in-studio fellas who might need some hands-on control that might not be available from their MIDI controller (vector joystick, ribbon, for example).
$2000 would be awesome, yep!

I see that our brainstorming sessions have left a mark Nice

[EvilDragon]

I see that our brainstorming sessions have left a mark Nice

Ha, naturally!

[ozy]

tabletop mountable to the rack. slightly smaller touchscreen (6", for example) instead of cutting on the controllers...

from this point on, a serious industrial design study should be done.

I won't throw around ideas just to see what sticks with the forumers.

I think that an external fader, you can always find

and external lcd becomes hugely expensive

And the M3's 6" display is NOT an example of precise interface.

Imagine patching the ms20 emulation on it...

[RadekK]

or - worse - it would require a computer and a knob-ladden controller keyboard (and the need of programming it to match the knobs with the K's controls... ),

Kronos is already based on a common computer hardware. Matching external controllers could be easy as selecting option on screen, then moving a controller.

which would defeat the very idea of a workstation: being computer-less and self-contained.

Kronos doesn't have a pianoroll yet (right?). I'm sure there will be more complaints why supposedly simple things get omitted. It puzzles me... Why manufacturers can not get all basic things done? Bureaucratic inertia, or not trying to be too competitive with PC based DAW?

There was a case with Motif XS which has certain sequencer functionality removed. Manufacturer's excuse? Use a PC...

it'd probably sell in minuscule amount, right?

I don't think so.

Then it's even more mystery to me...

My guess is what really sells workstation are sounds (for majority), and that most buyers just want something to play with. Things like sequencer, multitrack recorder, even synthesis types... they're are a second thought. More like "checklist fillers". Yamaha and Roland so far have been ridding that way for very long...
Kronos has changed something thought - we will see to what degree after reaction of other manufacturers.

[ozy]

oh, what a nice finger...no, stop: look, a squirrel!

Radekk, you know the story about the finger pointing at the moon, and the dog looking at the master's finger, instead of the moon?

The thread is about RACKmounting the Kronos. Or not. And how, if and when.

There is a whole forum full of threads about everything else kronos-related.

You picked the word "computer" in my post without any connection to what I was speaking about, and got started about... what?

If ALL threads are about ANYTHING, and if everybody posts just by free association,

nothing is going anywhere.

In the specific, your assertions that a) "what matters in synths is sound, not accessories" and b) "synth engines are secondary",

are totally contradictory.

What do you you think produces sound in synths? Synth engines!

May we please have a modicum of connection between eyes, brain and fingers?

[vEddY]

Kronos doesn't have a pianoroll yet (right?). I'm sure there will be more complaints why supposedly simple things get omitted. It puzzles me... Why manufacturers can not get all basic things done? Bureaucratic inertia, or not trying to be too competitive with PC based DAW?

Or maybe they're just waiting for Clarity to be finished to release it. Which would make absolutely _no sense_ since that would be like "Oh, yeah, we invented the workstation concept, now we're tearing it apart because we don't feel like upgrading sequencers on our keyboards that are/have been obsolete for the past 10 or so years".

Now that would be an exercise in futility and insane marketing. Can't wait to see Clarity released and see what the marketing approach to that one will be.

P.S. When Roland bought Cakewalk a couple of years ago - I wrote in a post here that KORG should work on a sequencer/DAW or work with some DAW manufacturer, and fast. My first impulse - since it was the only "available" one not bought by someone much bigger - was Ableton (Live). They eventually did bundle Live with some of their products (nano series). LE Versions, but that was a "misguided step in the right direction". As there's a whole bunch of DAWs out there for free that can do the job. Reaper comes to mind.

[vEddY]

Let's go back to the subject at hand.

It's quite natural to assume - as ozy suggests - that people that want rack units already have some sort of master keyboard with knobs, sliders, joysticks etc etc. That's reasonable.

Kronos Rack would be a feasible product even without an awful lot of those. It has a DAW integration and a decent master keyboard could easily be programmed to abuse all of the remote control possibilities of Kronos. No argue there.

The question remains, will Korg do it. Even with a bit smaller screen, like 6", it would still be heavily useable.

That being said, I'm at awe that no single keyboard manufacturer is able to make a decent master keyboard that would make everyone happy. Like - with 2-3 midi outputs, fully programmable, with two wheels and a ribbon control, 8-16 sliders and knobs (infinite). Not to mention the fact that it could have some sort of prog and combi mode where you could layer sounds and control all of your external equipment.

Something like that with VSTi compatibility would - I think - make a killer product as it would be supremely versatile. Just my 2c.

[ozy]

The question remains, will Korg do it.

they will.

Or I'll go Kayser Soze on them.

"He lets the last Hungarian go. then he goes after the rest of the mob. He kills their kids, he kills their wives, he kills their parents and their parents' friends. He burns down the houses they live in and the stores they work in, he kills people that owe them money. And like that he was gone. Underground. Nobody has ever seen him since. He becomes a myth, a spook story that criminals tell their kids at night. "Rat on your pop, and Keyser Soze will get you." And no-one ever really believes. "

[SpIdErWeB]

For having an Oasys by the past, and having used the Karma, I know I wouldn't like to have it on any way without all controllers... period.

That's also probably why the M3M does have fader, pads en knobs.
Even the missing Pads on the Kronos is already a restriction IMHO.

Saving $700 and not having the keyboard, I/O and controllers... yeah, maybe there's some potential customers for that (I actually understand the reasons and logic), but I'm not one of them, I will even stick with a Kronos 88.

So, I'm just out of the discussion for now

Phil

[RadekK]

Radekk, you know the story about the finger pointing at the moon, and the dog looking at the master's finger, instead of the moon?

Yes... I should stay more on a topic. Sorry...
However I can not see why (at times) being a bit offtopic could be so bad?

nothing is going anywhere.

My guess is... we may discuss to a deepest lengths yet it's Korg's decision in the end. So it's just (probably) all academic anyway.

In the specific, your assertions that a) "what matters in synths is sound, not accessories" and b) "synth engines are secondary",

are totally contradictory.

What do you you think produces sound in synths? Synth engines!

Well... I should express it more clearly... Lots of different sounds (as presets) can be done in just "rompler way". Sounds are what potential buyers are hearing, the method of obtaining them may be secondary for them. Fantoms and Motifs have practically unchanged (save the latest ARXs or discounted plugin boards after ES) sounds generators for years. Yet lots of people were buying them and using them. That's including synthy sounds done by rompler imitation too. My observation is that majority of consumers don't really care about technical stuff. Now with Kronos things get curious marketing wise but... enough of offtopic.

May we please have a modicum of connection between eyes, brain and fingers?

Of course. I'll try to focus in this thread on possible ways which Kronos may be implemented in a rack form.