How to use a second MIDI controller w/ Kronos

Boynton · Post by **Boynton** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:39 am

Searched the threads - not gonna read through all them. Wish every comment made about Kronos was in flat-file like Twitter. Much easier to search. The days of tree-branch discussion are coming to an end. Everyone goes off-topic anyway, and everyone basically wants to know the same stuff.

Here's my latest:

How would you use a second MIDI keyboard i.e. a synth action 61 or 49 to play additional sounds in a combi? I'd like to get the 73, have one sound source with two manuals (keyboards). I have come to realize that even with an 88, trying to do everything from one keyboard is always a compromise. Sometimes you need to reach up and grab something. How will this work?

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:56 am

The same way you do it on any Korg workstation in a combi.

You can set different timbres to respond to different MIDI channels. I have two or sometimes three additional controllers going through a merge box to the In of my Karma Workstation, to control various sounds (saves me having to physically change sounds in the middle of a song). But the two-keyboard setup is most efficient. Connect MIDI out of the controller to In of the workstation, change the MIDI channel of the controller keyboard to 2 or 16 (personal preference), or something else if you want (take note what channels KARMA often uses in a combi - 2,3,4,5 probably), then in your combi set up a timbre to respond to that MIDI channel.

By the way, there is a 'search' button at the top of the forum pages. Right between Memberlist and Usergroups

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm

If anyone has hands on experience of a Kronos, or of the user documentation, I'm interested to know if the Kronos USB MIDI implementation is better than that on the M3 or Pa2x ?

With my Korg M3 and Pa2x, the USB MIDI implementation was limited to connection to a host computer only, and it offered a single MIDI host device interface with 16 MIDI channels that could be shared among multiple chained devices. So I had to merge the MIDI data streams from multiple devices on a computer (using software called MIDI-OX), and I had to ensure no two devices were transmitting on the same MIDI channel simultaneously. Also I could not connect a MIDI USB device like another keyboard or a USB controller like the AKAI MPC series, or the Korg NANO series to my Pa2x or M3.

Here are the specific questions re Kronos:

1. Does the Kronos allow multiple USB MIDI devices i.e. say 10 different MIDI devices, each with 16 MIDI channels, in this example allowing 160 MIDI channels in total?

2. Does the Kronos have an internal MIDI mapper so that external device MIDI channels can be mapped onto the internal MIDI channels used by each of the nine Kronos synth engines?

3. Can we connect multiple USB MIDI devices like the NANO series directly, or do we have to go through a host computer via a USB MIDI host link?

4. Does the Kronos allow the assignment of MIDI key-presses, bank/prog changes and controllers so that all nine of the Krono's synth engines can be simultaneously used and controlled by external MIDI controllers?

P.S. I do own a non-Korg workstation that implements all the above, and it's great for connecting my Korg NanoPad and NanoKontrol directly into it, something I was never able to do with Korg workstations

Thanks,
Rob

Citizen Klaus · Post by **Citizen Klaus** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:23 pm

Rob Sherratt wrote:2. Does the Kronos have an internal MIDI mapper so that external device MIDI channels can be mapped onto the internal MIDI channels used by each of the nine Kronos synth engines?

4. Does the Kronos allow the assignment of MIDI key-presses, bank/prog changes and controllers so that all nine of the Krono's synth engines can be simultaneously used and controlled by external MIDI controllers?

Not sure exactly what you mean by mapping to "each of the nine Kronos synth engines," but it looks like the Kronos will adhere to the standard Program/Combi/Sequencer layout. We already know that the Kronos can run as many of the synth engines in Combi or Seq modes as you want (up to the limit of the 16 simultaneous instrument channels), and the functionality you ask about here is already incorporated into the Combi/Seq architecture.

So I'd say, barring any sudden revelations, that the answer is most likely "yes," just perhaps not in the exact way you're thinking of.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:08 pm

(up to the limit of the 16 simultaneous instrument channels)

There is no reason for such a limitation apart from legacy thinking by the designer. If a MIDI controller or playback engine e.g. VSTi or hardware player is identified by a unique device ID, then every MIDI controller can have 16 channels, every playback engine can have 16 channels and so on. Then the workstation should provide a MIDI mapper which assigns controller channels to playback engine channels. Then the MIDI mapper should allow any MIDI event coming from the controller to be assigned to any controllable feature in the playback engine.

If Kronos is sold with the virtue of having nine synth engines, then we should be able to plug nine MIDI USB controller keyboards into it, each keyboard playing each of the synth engines simultaneously, with independent sustain, joystick control of pitchbend/ leslie effect etc.

Take a look at MIDI device implementation in Cakewalk, Cubase, Logic etc. You can have multiple MIDI devices each with a unique device ID and its own 16 MIDI channels. Cakewalk, Cubase, Logic etc. can record an infinite number of MIDI channels so long as each channel number is prefixed with the appropriate device ID.

My question about Kronos' MIDI implementation is still open ...

Regards,
Rob

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:14 pm

I think you'll find it works the same way as the M3.

Also, I think you might have misunderstood the 'engines'. They don't run 'standalone' as separate entities like softsynths might, but rather a track/timbre just references a program number (just like in the M3), and that program number could be AL-1, CX-3, HD-1, etc. Again, just like EDS and Radias programs in the M3.

I also personally can't imagine any problem with having 16 MIDI channels - I rarely use the full eight in a combi on my Karma Workstation, let alone the full 16 in sequencer mode.

And if you are working on a song, you can always bounce tracks to audio tracks, of which there are also 16 (or 8 stereo)

Citizen Klaus · Post by **Citizen Klaus** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:27 pm

X-Trade wrote:Also, I think you might have misunderstood the 'engines'. They don't run 'standalone' as separate entities like softsynths might, but rather a track/timbre just references a program number (just like in the M3), and that program number could be AL-1, CX-3, HD-1, etc. Again, just like EDS and Radias programs in the M3.

Yup. And it looks as though things will work in a fashion similar to the OASYS: Combis and Seq songs can be comprised of up to 16 instrument parts. Each of those parts consists of a program, which can be either a single HD-1 part or any combination of two of the remaining EXi engines (e.g. AL-1 and CX-3, or MS-20EX and MOD-7). The whole "nine synth engines" business just means that you'll have 8 options (HD-1 excepted) from which to select your two EXi engines per program.

The biggest question, really, is how EP-1 and SGX-1 will be handled. Since they're (at least partially) sample-based, will they count like HD-1 programs, or will they be regarded as EXi parts? Edit: Based on the screenshots at Korg's site ("Nine Engines Overview", under the "Features" tab), it looks like SGX-1 and EP-1 both count as EXi parts. So that's good news.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:34 pm

In case anyone wonders, we have already advertised the Groove X-R and Groove workstations as having the ability to play more than 10 VSTi or ASIO synth engines simultaneously.

That means the user can plug at least ten MIDI USB keyboards into the Groove X-R, and each keyboard can be assigned to play its own dedicated VSTi or ASIO synth engine running concurrently on a single Groove X-R. Every VSTi gets its own dedicated sustain, volume, pitchbend or whatever other controllers you want to assign to it.

There is a limit to processor power, even with a Phenom processor and real-time Linux, and some VSTi's are inefficient, so there will be some combinations of ten synth engines that will not coexist. But we will provide some combis of ten VSTi's running simultaneously that demonstrate this working at Musikmesse. Some of the VSTi's we demonstrate will be the most popular Native Instruments synth engines which can be purchased by the user. Others will be synth engines we are including as standard, there will be at least 50 different synth engines, and you can choose any ten of them to play concurrently. If they are lightweight synths then you can play and control 20 or more of them concurrently from up to 20 external MIDI keyboard controllers if you wish

I hope the Kronos can do the same "concurrent MIDI" thing using its nine synth engines as the Groove X-R, because we will then be on a level playing field with our advertizing.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:13 am

Those familiar with the OASYS will understand the basic idea:
* The KRONOS is 16-part multitimbral
* Each timbre is a Program, which can use two engines at once (so, a max of 32 engines simultaneously - not nine)
* To use additional MIDI controllers, just assign them to different MIDI channels
* No support currently for additional controllers connected directly via USB

Hope this helps!

- Dan

Boynton · Post by **Boynton** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:19 pm

Thx everyone. Sounds like a winner!

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:03 pm

Rob Sherratt wrote:There is no reason for such a limitation apart from legacy thinking by the designer.

come on, the proteus 2000 [when? 2001? 1999? ] had 16 channels for EACH of its midi physical inputs.

I ran the percussion-side (dedicated audio outputs) in "multi" mode with a sequencer (could have been a drumset)

and the "synth" side with keyboards.

Each of the sets on 16 channels. With midi-based routing/panning to the audio physical outputs.

That's 11 or 12 years ago.

And I am speaking of a strictly hardware, old fashioned 1U box.

Go figure what an open computer-based architecture could do.

two physical midi inputs (din and usb), a "midi source" setting in each routing parameter, and... voilà. it's 32. even if the combis remain a 16 slot affair, that could be used for midi control of effets, external control, control of audio processing, etc etc

They midi a/ midi b trick is there in any stupid cakewalk master, can't it be there in a 4 grands workstation?

I appreciate the Kronos' sonic quality (better: I will when I'll hear it person), and I think that it could be enough reason for buying a good synth,

but I'd feel more comfortable not being fed "22nd century innovation" sales plugs, pls.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:27 pm

ozy wrote: I'd feel more comfortable not being fed "22nd century innovation" sales plugs, pls.

Is that a quote from Korg's marketing? Just wondering, since I've never heard it or read it in connection with the KRONOS.

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:10 pm

danatkorg wrote:
ozy wrote: I'd feel more comfortable not being fed "22nd century innovation" sales plugs, pls.
Is that a quote from Korg's marketing? Just wondering, since I've never heard it or read it in connection with the KRONOS.

In my job we call it "hypercorrection".

You see a bad bias, you correct it in an exagerate way, by overemphasizing it...

... so that you are shure you get at least a minor correction, and at the VERY least a comprehesion of the bad bias.

In doing so, you trust intelligent people will self-correct.

Eg: Patricia throws 3/4 and gets 1 meter off target? You have her throw heavily upperhand, get her to throw 5 meters off target the other way...

... until she finally finds her correct position middle way.

That's the metaphor.

Now, don't push me into translating it

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:50 pm

Who's Patricia?

BTW, I take full responsibility for the "22nd century" quote. I said it during one of my NAMM demos (I think you missed that one, Dan) but afterwards, an enraged Rich F. dragged me backstage by my ear and chewed me out royally for hyperexaggerting. When I told him I never heard that term before, he glared at me intensely for a few seconds before striking me squarely in the jaw. I have to say, it was a really uncomfortable situation. Not the punching part so much as he forced me to send an apologetic email to the president of Korg Japan in which I had to type "I will not hyperexaggerate" 1000 times on a stupid PC that had an intermittent 'e' key. Anyway, Ozy was there during my demo and so he's just reporting verbatim what he heard me say in my spiel. So let's not blame him for his reportage. In reality, it's all my fault.

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:34 am

peter_schwartz wrote:Who's Patricia?

Cindy's sister.

peter_schwartz wrote:"I will not hyperexaggerate" 1000 times on a stupid PC that had an intermittent 'e' key.

you should have bought the 88 keys version. better for ribattuto