So the synth bug bit me hard!

JimH · Post by **JimH** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:30 am

I have a Roland KC500. I don't like it for piano sound and I pretty much never use it now. I'd like to sell it and go with QSC K10 or K12. I'm not sure which---I'd like the smaller size of the K10 but I'm not sure if they would have enough bass for keyboards. I've never heard them.

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:36 am

This discuss is off on a tangent.

I like Trigonometry

I use Mackie SRM450's for live keyboard playing/

The D-50 is a great keyboard, while mine is not for sale, I believe they should fetch around $350 to $500

I've got welts up and down my arms and legs from all the times I've been bitten by the synth bug. I am about to draw blood from the kronos bite.

While I still have my wavestation, karma and M3. having all these is one combi is one exciting feature to me.

I don't know much about the PS60 but the Radias is one cool keyboard. Here again, mines is not for sale!

I recommend get as many keyboards as possible and never sale anything.

I truly miss the TritonLe, SP606, MO-6, micron and QS-6. I could shed a tear for the JV880, Matrix1000, even the K1r

never sale anything! just buy more, it's the only cure the synth bug bite.

SpIdErWeB · Post by **SpIdErWeB** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:15 pm

A second keybed for the Kronos, I see three solutions:

1- a master keyboard of your choice.

2- a second workstation such the Motif XF, Fantom G, Kurz PC3 or equivalent (which might sound obsessive since the Kronos will cover workstation functions already, so it will be mainly to get different sound color)

3- an analog synth such: Virus TI, Nord Wave, Roland VSynth GT or equivalent. This could bring interesting sounds to the setup.

Phil

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:21 pm

SpIdErWeB wrote:A second keybed for the Kronos, I see three solutions:

1- a master keyboard of your choice.

2- a second workstation such the Motif XF, Fantom G, Kurz PC3 or equivalent (which might sound obsessive since the Kronos will cover workstation functions already, so it will be mainly to get different sound color)

3- an analog synth such: Virus TI, Nord Wave, Roland VSynth GT or equivalent. This could bring interesting sounds to the setup.

Phil

I agree on the pc3 because of this:

kronos 61 + pc3 76 would give you a LIGHT array of piano-friendly [excluding classical], synth-friendly and organ-friendly keys.

There's the redundancy issue, but the master keyboard functions of the pc3 could be very useful.

I disagree on the "analogue" idea, because those are NOT analogues.

What's the purpose of adding a nord VA to the kronos' VA engines?

If you add an analogue to the kronos, let it be a real analogue.

If money is the issue [moneywise, just moneywise, kronos 73 + phatty.... eeech! Kronos 61 + prophet08... ouch!], then...

go back to the masterkeyboard box.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:06 pm

I see this is a very individual choice! I do like the nords. I do not know how redundant they would be. The Moogs are ok but I would like more keys. I never looked at or heard a prophet, as far as I know, and I certainly wish the thought had never been placed in my head! I really loved what I heard so far but that isn't going to be a choice for a very long time.

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:20 pm

Bertotti wrote:I never looked at or heard a prophet, as far as I know, and I wish the thought had never been placed in my head!

I am an evil agent of the Vast Secret Analogue Conspiracy!

Resistance is futile! Surrender to the Will of the Masters of the Universe!

Bertotti wrote:I see this is a very individual choice!

amen.

Everything we tell you is just proposal, idea, brainstorming, food for thought. Digesting it is YOUR job

Bertotti wrote:I love nord, I do not know how redundant they would be.

by "nord" in this case we mean the nord VAs (or VA+rompler), not the pianos, right?

In this case, if we got to the extremes, then NO instrument is "redundant": a Virus VA doesn't sound like a Nord Lead and not like a Novation nor like a [eeeech!] Akai Miniak or a radias, and collectively they don't sound like a Kornos or oasys engine.

You want THAT nord special sound, THAT OTHER special Virus quality? All together? Are you such a refined sound designer?

In this case you could/should have 20 synths.

You should/could have kronos+motif, or kronos+fantom, kronos+virus, etc.

But I always found ridiculous to have 35 rhodes on a synth and 35 more on another, 12 korg pan flutes and 5 yamaha pan flutes, 85 korg pads, 60 motif pads and 123 fantom pads...

Of course, if you run a studio and must meet ANY request...

In that case, money and space are not an issue, right?

IF on the contrary you MUST CHOOSE (money+space are limited)

then redundancy is an issue,

and if you'd use the Nord for emulating a moog, the kronos for emulating... amoog, the novation for emulating... a moog...

then they ARE indeed redundant.

You said NEED two manuals and ONE instance of EVERY GOOD sound generation mode...

... then the only things not redundant with the Kronos are:

a) real analogue or real analogue+digital [DSI evolver, moog, prophet, etc]

b) physical acoustic modeling of winds (not available except on computer [see below])

c) different key types (for optimizing different playing styles and engines)

d) good and abundant master controls

e) exotic synth engines available only on computers [mega-giga sample libraries, WIVI, resynthesis engines, etc etc ets]

So, the less redundant [best bang for the buck] solution is

kronos+master

the second best is

kronos + analogue with good keys (but in that case, not kronos 61)

the third best is

kronos + master + computer

My kronos + pc3 idea is "faulty" because of the redundancy between the sound engines). Pity. It wouldn't be if kronos was a rack (kurzweil has far better master features)

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:41 pm

When you all say master I am a little confused. I started life just looking for a synth of some sort to play on, of course not knowing the right questions leads to lots of ideas from you all that have the experience. I miss my Kimball organ, it was just fun! I want quality and will save as much as needed or do as many extra jobs beyond my first to get it. I want my kids to learn. So in that vein I went from r-3 to radias to Kronos. On Kronos I won't be dissuaded 88 keys is my first board of extreme quality. Next is up for choice. I was leaning towards the Nord C2 because it at has four good organ sounds and two boards and pedals if so desired later but it isn't cast in stone. I need the main board first to see what I can accomplish tone wise. A Kronos with two KB would make me happy. But now that I have heard the Prophet there really is no way to get that analog sound without analog, well there might be but I don't know it. So I'm down to master being a little uncertain of the definition of master. I don't know what boards are considered master but will begin my google quest, or the prophet. Obviously this will be a journey covering years but is great to begin searching for because of the vast variety of gear out there and the way it changes so fast. Anyway evil analog agent I love the crazy ideas no matter how pricey because what is out of range now may well be a comfortable buy is a couple years!

The propeht I just googled was incredible! Prophet 08 wasn't as expensive as I thought it was going to be. I figured it was more then the Kronos but it iis less! Kronos first and may/probably prophet 08 end of next year! The tones from the first couple vids on the Dave Smith website sold me on it for a second board jsut now. Thanks!

Beware the

evil analog agents

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:04 pm

Bertotti wrote:When you all say master I am a little confused.

In short, this is it [I try to make myself clear. If I exagerate in simplifying, tell me to eff off: I don't mean to patronize].

I'll talk to you like you were a 5 years old, and as if I was a cretin.

The kronos has a BIG BAD HUGE amount of sound in it.

It can be a very nice hammond organ and a quite convincing minimoog at the same time.

You don't need many sound sources after you get such a beast (except may be very special engines like a real analogue or certain mega-sample-libraries)

But it has too little keys and controls to play all that at the same time.

I thought you talked about this, when you said you missed the "organ" configuration.

Now:

the SECOND, control, keyboard could be a synth (keys+sound engine) OR could be a plain masterkeyboard/controller.

the difference is:

300 euros will give you a wonderful masterkeyboard,

a decent synth worth adding to the kronos will cost you 1500/2000 or more. Anything less than that, would be made redundant by the kronos itself.

Taking a master keyboard (let's say, a 88 keys piano-like keyboard), which is cheap,

and connecting that to the kronos would allow you to

* solo on the kronos keyboard set to a moog sound while comping on a kronos piano sound on the 88 keyboard.

OR

* you could buy a 73 or 88 piano-keys kronos, comp on it, and play kronos synth lines on a 61 keys masterkeyboard on top of it.

Those synth lines are worth as much as any nord's or virus' [with the limitations discussed above].

or of course you could have:

* a hammond solo sound on the top master keyboard
and another hammond comp/bass sound on the kronos, exploiting tewo different kronos patches.

A master is:

a keyboard with good keys (and good controls for optimizing the key's velocity and aftertouch response),
many controllers (pedals, knobs, faders, breath control, ribbon controller, percussion pads, you name them) and
with a dedicated software section which allows you to carefully manage how these controllers can drive external synths (e.g.: choosing that three knobs will drive the filter of an external synths, 3 more will drice the EQ of another synth, etc. choosing that two octaves will drive a bass sound and the remaining 3 will play a synth solo on two different external synth engines).

It is usually a dedicated, sound-less device [studiologic, roland, oberheim made excellent such instruments] , OR you can use some synths (like the kurzweil pc3 series) as masterkeyboards because they have huge controllers.

In the case of kurz pc3, it's a wonderful "master" albeit it's a synth. You can play breath control+keys on a channel, ribbon+keys on another, fixed velocity keys on a third, synth-piano keys on a 4th channel. Of course you pay also for the synth engine though, and that makes it a "redundant" and expensive tool. You'd get more hammonds and rhodes which are probably not better than the kronos'. at 1500/1600 euros, it's some "money per key". uhm...

Other synths (nord VAs, prophet, phatty) make for LOUSY master keyboards. Their keys and controls barely control themselves, let alone other synths [the kronos is 9 synths, never forget that. You control that from a masterkeyboard... it's got to be a GOOD one, with separate controls on several channels].

Korg synths are NOT famous for being so great "master" keyboards.

is that clear?

have I gone too simple? Didn't mean to consider you incompetent.

My bottom line is:

you miss your organ?

You want a two-keyboards kronos?

buy the kronos and add a masterkeyboard. if you buy the weighted kronos, add a waterfall keyboard (good for hammond+synth emulations)

if you buy the kronos synth action 61 keyboard,

and a plain 88 keys piano-like master (used ones: oberheim mc1000 at 300 euros, roland a 90 at 400. New ones: studiologic, or whatever).

"master functionalities" means: the second keyboard will be able to drive the kronos, select sounds, have separate pedal controls, control synth paramenters through knobs (you play the piano on the kronos and control its sound from the kronos panel, while playing a synth on the matrekey and fiddle its filter from the master's knobs).

All of this doesn't need more than 300/400 euros to add to your kronos budget.

The prophet08 was a funny idea: it can work as a VERY BASIC masterkeyboard [NO WAY of carefully programming it to send knob controls on several midi cyhannels. it's just one more set of keys on a single channel... not very good], but would add a complementary sound to the kronos.

but that's at a 2000 bucks price tag...

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:28 pm

I got you! And no it wasn't to basic! I think it was perfect, I do not live well with assumptions and I was making some. A master keyboard is exactly what I was eluding to before but I didn't know what it was called. My keys vocabulary is not large but I am working on it. I apologize it it seems redundant and forced you to type a lot but it did have all the answers i needed. I do want a master and it will be added right after a Kronos unless I stumble on a good deal. I will google the names you mentions and take a look but as you said it is exactly what I was asking for earlier. Master keyboard= extra board with no frills! Frill was my way of saying synths! Thanks for straightening me out and the education!

I'm liking this Studiologic VMK-161 61 Key Waterfall Action Controller. I didn't know waterfall meant organ like action, this one had 8 or 9 each programmable buttons knobs and slider. Might be a good addition to the 88 key Kronos, following Ozy's suggestions which make sense to my goal, now that I understand it all a little better! A little over 500 US. I am going to reevaluate my position on which will be 88 keys and which will be 61. I'm a bit tossed up there. I think it would be nice to have a more portable Kronos and it doesn't sacrifice any functionality to have the smaller board but I am not sure what to think of the studio logic board. I need to find one or something with similar key bed to try. Sorry to keep dragging this on everyone but it sure is helping me a lot. i hope someone else is getting some benefit out this thread as well.

SpIdErWeB · Post by **SpIdErWeB** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:51 pm

@ozy: I agree, real analog will be better than another VA synth.

However, a Nord, Virus or VSynth GT will still bring sounds the Kronos does have, even if they're also VA. There aren't necessarily emulating a moog, they just do have their own sound signature.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a VSynth GT now because Roland's coming next year with a new version (for sure, you can mark my word), perhaps earlier... so I would prefer to wait.

The little phatty is an interesting choice... but personally I would like better to go for the Voyager (but it clearly depends of the budget which is unknown)

Phil

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:02 pm

I edited my post above to show the direction I am going. I like the master controller idea. I just didn't understand the term, but it was what I meant in my own way when I asked for a no frill key bed. We live we learn, the last week in this forum has my head spinning at times. I had to read Ozy's dumbed down for my level post a few times! I'll just pretend I am 40 years younger so it won't be so humiliating!

You have all been a big help, if any of you get to my neck of the woods let me know the least I can do is offer up a beer and a steak. I might suck at key but I can cook!

Synthoid · Post by **Synthoid** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:06 pm

Bertotti wrote:You have all been a big help, if any of you get to my neck of the woods let me know the least I can do is offer up a beer and a steak. I might suck at key but I can cook!

Sounds good.

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:08 pm

Synthoid wrote:
Bertotti wrote:You have all been a big help, if any of you get to my neck of the woods let me know the least I can do is offer up a beer and a steak. I might suck at key but I can cook!
Sounds good.

SOUNDS VEEEERY GOOD!

Mid-rare for me!

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:12 pm

I'm in South Dakota! I usually cook ribeye but mine needs to be rare, very rare! And no beer but hard cider for me!

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:20 pm

I have just realized how bad I've been bitten by the synth bug. I find myself check the Korg site daily, just to see if the manual is available yet!

This obsession has got to stop, The Kronos will not bring anything really new to my sound pallet, It will consolidate many capabilities into one keyboard.

Another thing, don't think you have been bitten, the Kronos is in the blood stream, evident by the post that read like half of us already have the Kronos at home.

Good job Korg, I Haven't been this full of equipment lust since the M3 was announced.