Kronos vs Tyros 4 Articulate? Crescendos

Discussion relating to the Korg Kronos Workstation.

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Sharp
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Post by Sharp »

My challenge: Show an example of Korg's best uilleann pipes, compared to the Tyros 4. Line them up and start the joust to see who ends up with their ass in the mud in defeat. I'm backing Yamaha SA2 all the way on this challenge.
Ok...Suck on this... :-)
Uilleann Pipe


lol... Ok, to be fair I did play this on a Triton Extreme, but the point I'd be making here is that with a good keyboard and it's sampler, you can make it what you want. You can also ....FAR..... exceed anything a Tyros 4 can throw out with minimal investment into a few sample CD's and your Kronos.

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Post by xmlguy »

sparkie wrote:
mkpcola wrote:Here we go again. I tried to stop this thread...
Yammy tyros4 articulation sounds are good because they put in a lot of hours of sound programming and custom samples recording(recording of specific nuances). And You have to PAY for it. Almost twice of Kronos 61 key version. You get what you pay for..Still don't get it???

Tyros4 articulation voices are not included in Low end PSR ($1700 or less).
Jeez...
Hey man who peed in your Wheaties? Your not the Korg Guru! If typing or reading this thread bothers you then ..guess what.. Dont read it! I know what the KBs cost! I was simply asking if Super Articulation could be implemented on the Kronos..And if so how is it done. JEEZ!!!!!!!!!

Thanks XMLGUY for your input. PSR S900 is a good addition, looks like it has been discontinued.
Hi sparkie, the PSR-S900 was replaced by the PSR-S910, adding quite a few more SuperArticulation! voices in the process, for about the same price. Both have an excellent organ flutes section with virtual drawbars, besides the SA! voices. They also have an extensive collection of the MegaVoice articulated voices besides SA!, along with software to automatically add articulations to midi tracks, allowing you to replace existing tracks with articulated instruments. This is very important to be able to effectively use the articulations for guitar, sax, etc. without having to program the articulations manually. After processing, the guitar tracks will have string noise, hammers, and slides, for example, when using any of the guitar MegaVoices.
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Post by xmlguy »

Sharp wrote:
My challenge: Show an example of Korg's best uilleann pipes, compared to the Tyros 4. Line them up and start the joust to see who ends up with their ass in the mud in defeat. I'm backing Yamaha SA2 all the way on this challenge.
Ok...Suck on this... :-)
Uilleann Pipe


lol... Ok, to be fair I did play this on a Triton Extreme, but the point I'd be making here is that with a good keyboard and it's sampler, you can make it what you want. You can also ....FAR..... exceed anything a Tyros 4 can throw out with minimal investment into a few sample CD's and your Kronos.

Regards
Sharp.
Nice try, but no vibrato on aftertouch, no falls at the end of notes, no glissandos, etc. It's also not what the TrEx or Kronos has out of the box. I'm not saying that you can't improve what they have by adding samples and some programming. There will be the issue of how to invoke these articulations like falls dynamically (not a mere pitchbend - an actual sampled fall) by adding them to the end of notes that are already playing. Maybe you know how to do that, since I don't see a way to do a glissando, for example, without having to play all the notes on the TrEx. With SA!, it does the glissando between the notes for you(see 4:57 on the following).

Forward to 3:30 on the following for the pipes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJMqdYWneLM

You can load samples on the Tyros too, by the way. But you can't create SuperArticulation voices because Yamaha hasn't exposed any way to do the programming for the articulation behavior for custom voices with samples. Obviously, I'm not saying that Yamaha is the be all and end all of sample articulation, they're just more progressed than most workstations and arrangers I've seen. Softsynths are quite a bit more powerful for articulation programming than any of the workstations.

Let's make a list of all the articulated voices that come with the Kronos, out of the box.
Last edited by xmlguy on Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
sparkie
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Post by sparkie »

Sharp..FOUL! You sampled it! :) Nice Pipe thoough..

I can see now that I am going to have to check out a S910.
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Post by DaveBoulden »

All this talk of articulations popped up a little light-bulb above my head and remembere dsomething I read about the OASYS: I just read this on Korg USA's site regarding the EXS3 library:
The new Legato Technology allows you to play using true legato notes. Now you can use Soft Velocity with slow attack, Medium Velocity Legato or Hard Velocity with Fast Attack. Basically, by playing normal phrases, the type of legato will be automatically selected and the accents of your performance will determine the attack; for example, while performing softly, the slow natural attack will be performed.
Is this functionality also on the Kronos?
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Post by Sharp »

Nice try, but no vibrato on aftertouch, no falls at the end of notes, no glissandos,
lol... take it from me an Irish man, that's as real as you can get from any keyboard. Real Uilleann pipes also don't do vibrato either. You can only flutter the notes and that's not the same thing as vibrato at all as you cannot use your breath to control it, you can only flutter notes with your fingering.

That said, it is all there if you listen again. Go to 2:28 seconds and you will hear a slow glissando as well as straight notes fluttering.
It's also not what the TrEx or Kronos has out of the box.
Correct, but for in around 100 Euro I purchased an entire library of sounds like this that cover all Celtic and most Ethnic Instruments. Nooo.... Workstation or Arranger even comes remotely close to producing sounds like that out of the box... none.

So they way I'd be looking at this is, if you take everything the Kronos has and if you find it's a little weak in a certain area, a small investment will solve that problem forever.
I'm not saying that you can't improve what they have by adding samples and some programming. There will be the issue of how to invoke these articulations like falls dynamically (not a mere pitchbend - an actual sampled fall) by adding them to the end of notes that are already playing.
Prgoarmming will obvisouly give you far more control, but there's a lot you can do with a good sample library just be loading it straight. The World Winds library I was running on the Triton Extreme above uses velocity switching and sounds offering dual tuning spanned over more than one octave. So you can achieve quite a lot before resorting to programming.
With SA!, it does the glissando between the notes for you(see 4:57 on the following).

Forward to 3:30 on the following for the pipes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJMqdYWneLM
He's activating layers by switches. As you know, since the Trinity Series SW 1 and SW2 on your KORG can do the same thing.

There are many ways to do the same things, what Yamaha are doing here is not a technology. I was doing all that on my AKAI Samplers 20 years ago.

It boils down to one thing and one thing only here, Samples. If you have them, then there's nothing stopping you from producing the most amazing sounds in the work from a Kronos. People need to realise the Sampler function of the Kronos is meant to be use for things like this. If anyone find it a little weak in a certain area, buy a AKAI disk. Problem solved.
You can load samples on the Tyros too, by the way.
Err... That's not exactly true. The Tyros does not support a single commercial format that can retain multisample or program data at all. It can only load basic WAVE files one by one where you must then assemble by hand into a multisample, and then create the program yourself.

The Tyros is as basic as hell when it comes to anything out side of selecting a factory preset.

Either that or buy sounds from someone else that has done all the donkey work for you and saved the data in Tyros format. That's a very very rare thing to find though.
But you can't create SuperArticulation voices because Yamaha hasn't exposed any way to do the programming for the articulation behavior for custom voices with samples.
Only because the sound engine interface is also as basic as hell. They have intentionally locked away the keyboards full abilities from the end user.

To that I say... WTF...!!!
Tyros users are like sheep being milked like Cows. The Tyros 5 will have more SA voices, all of which they could sell on a memory stick for 100 bucks, but nope... people will have to shell out 4 grand for the pleasure of a few extra sounds and a incremental upgrade that goes with it.

They won't unlock the sound engine because there are so few new sounds actually released in the new Tyros 4, it would take someone only a nights work to sample them and load them into a Tyros 3.
Obviously, I'm not saying that Yamaha is the be all and end all of sample articulation, they're just more progressed than most workstations and arrangers I've seen. Softsynths are quite a bit more powerful for articulation programming than any of the workstations.
KORG's DNC and RX Technology far exceed what Yamaha have already :-)
Let's make a list of all the articulated voices that come with the Kronos, out of the box.
Also depends on your view. I could say for example that every single COMBI sound is a SA Voice and much more. That's before even going onto prog mode.

I'll leave it at that and one more mp3.
http://www.irishacts.com/lionstracs/worldwinds.mp3

That's what a selection of 100 bucks offers.

Regards
Sharp.
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Post by xmlguy »

Hi Sharp, I know what you're saying and I agree with all of it I think, but I guess the difference is that I think a workstation like the Kronos should have their best articulation voices on board, not as third party purchases or left to be manually programmed. Does Kronos have DNC and RX technology? I haven't seen any mention of it. I agree with your assessment of Yamaha's limitations, but this is just as much of a WTF for Korg, to be fair. I think it's crazy for any of the manufacturers to give preference to the arrangers for their best articulation technology. I can understand not having the arranger features on the workstations (even though the hardware should be able to do that too). Workstation buyers want the best sounds they've got, too, right? I do. You do, too, right?

BTW, when I said vibrato, I was referring to the fluttering you're talking about, which is the kind of vibrato+tremolo done on the chanter. I was using the keyboardist term for invoking that articulation - as the aftertouch on that SA voice does flutter, not vibrato. It's kinda hard to get vibrato on a doublereed. :) I'm not a reedplayer, but I sat near the reeds in concerts when I was playing brass (French horn, trumpet, Bb cornet, baritone). One reason I like the reeds on my keys is because I missed out playing them when brass was my only choice after I had picked that path in school.
Last edited by xmlguy on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by SpIdErWeB »

Realism isn't only on how good and how many samples are used... So sampling alone isn't a good solution if the Sample Player doesn't allow "scripting"...

It's the only way to realize conditional programming and get glissando, staccato over legato, strum down and up, etc... Without using Switch, or different keys, etc...

It's no matter of synthesis quality or samples size... And it could clearly be done if Korg want to include this scripting feature in HD-1... Then it would clearly kill other system such the Tyros 4.

Phil
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Post by DaveBoulden »

SpIdErWeB wrote:So sampling alone isn't a good solution if the Sample Player doesn't allow "scripting"...

It's the only way to realize conditional programming and get glissando, staccato over legato, strum down and up, etc... Without using Switch, or different keys, etc...

It's no matter of synthesis quality or samples size... And it could clearly be done if Korg want to include this scripting feature in HD-1...
Hence my question above about the OASYS version of the EXS3 library doing automatc legato switching and whether or not it's implemented on the Kronos.
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Post by Sharp »

Hi Sharp, I know what you're saying and I agree with all of it I think, but I guess the difference is that I think a workstation like the Kronos should have their best articulation voices on board, not as third party purchases or left to be manually program
I think it's very much a balancing act between end user price, function and where to draw the line and just release the product.

When you consider the new sound engines, and sample expansions, they have done an awful lot of work. When you also consider the final price tag, your getting something that's better than the OASYS for half the price.

Given all that, I think the Kronos is the best it can be while also maintain the balance.

For example, a copy of VSL will set you back more than the Kronos cost.
Does Kronos have DNC and RX technology?
Nope.
Seems KORG Italy do their own thing.
I agree with your assessment of Yamaha's limitations, but this is just as much of a WTF for Korg, to be fair. I think it's crazy for any of the manufacturers to give preference to the arrangers for their best articulation technology
Exactly, it's actually stupid to think that KORG Italy are developing an entirely different system at this stage from what KORG Inc are building. More and more as time goes by the Pa-Series move away from how the workstations work.

The Pa-Series even gets modes for emulating guitars.
I can understand not having the arranger features on the workstations (even though the hardware should be able to do that too). Workstation buyers want the best sounds they've got, too, right? I do. You do, too, right?
Yep... not everything makes sense I'm afraid. To a point I can understand why Yamaha do it as they know that the majority of their arranger (Tyros users) are retired gentlemen / ladies who will buy Yellow Snow if it came in a Yamaha box, but KORG's arrangers are pack with some very advanced tech and the likes of greatly enhanced EDS sound engines that go way beyond the M3. Why they are not sharing that technology across to the workstations makes no sense to me at all.

For example, a single Program on a Pa Arranger can have 16 OSC's. It's like a mini combi mode and you and mix more than one program together at the same time.

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Sharp.
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Post by Sharp »

SpIdErWeB wrote:Realism isn't only on how good and how many samples are used... So sampling alone isn't a good solution if the Sample Player doesn't allow "scripting"...

It's the only way to realize conditional programming and get glissando, staccato over legato, strum down and up, etc... Without using Switch, or different keys, etc...

It's no matter of synthesis quality or samples size... And it could clearly be done if Korg want to include this scripting feature in HD-1... Then it would clearly kill other system such the Tyros 4.

Phil
This is exactly what KORG are doing with DNC.

DNC allows you to setup condition that offer function and cycles. For example, you could have a few different guitar noises you could assign to any one of the 16 layers a single sound can contain, and then have them trigger off different ways, even at total random cycles that have nothing to do with note velocity.

Note on / off, repeating notes not sounding exactly the same(no machine gun effect), legato detection, layer velocity and more....

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Post by SpIdErWeB »

I'm not enough familiar with DNC but I'm quiet sure it does go as deep as Kontakt scripting found in Strawberry or LA scoring Strings libraries...

However, I have no doubt Korg does have knowledge and people capable to include it in the software update if they really want to do so.

Phil
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Re: Kronos vs Tyros 4 Articulate? Crescendos

Post by Unicorn »

sparkie wrote:No I am not promoting the Tyros.. But just heard a nice Tyros 4 video from Kraft music. Can the Kronos articulate the sound as in this video explains? Crescendos between the notes .. I like the finger guitar example..very nice. Any Oasys examples?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuwjrDb-0hY

starts around 4:30
No, KRONOS cannot. Demo Tyros 4, you will be blown away by the playability of these keys.
Cheers,
Unicorn
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Post by burningbusch »

When listening to the sax, trumpet, clarinet etc on that Tyros 3 example above I was struck by what I dislike about many of these articulated sounds. To me, the single most important aspect of a wind/bass/sax emulation is that you can control the timbre and volume from ppp to fff AFTER you depress the note. That's where the core expressiveness of these instruments comes from and yes breath controller works best for this. In the sax example you can hear numerous times where he plays a couple of notes at one sample layer and triggers a new note a velocity layer, so the tone changes abruptly. You get no sense of a column of air flowing through the instrument, rather you hear each note articulated as if it were a fresh burst of air each time. Hence, it immediately sounds fake to my ears. Most of the articulations come off as more of a way to distract your ears away from the pretty average sounding samples and the lack of core expression. Many pro jazz players play pretty damn straight without a lot of idiosyncratic gimmicks.

Good legato and the connectedness of the sound is critical. VSL legato mode is superb with their solo woodwinds. I don't like their saxes much. The Yamaha VL and SampleModeling do a great job with the column of air connectedness and basic expression.

I thought the harmonica example was pretty cool. I think this SA technology works better with guitars and more percussive/plucked/struck instruments. All this is not to say Korg shouldn't be doing more in this area. I just don't see it as some huge piece missing from the Kronos.

Busch.
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Post by mkpcola »

LOL...
It is fun that people talk about something they will not get out of Kronos.
Some don't even have any idea about tyros4 demo voices. They are called superarticulation3 voices or SA3. They can not be found on cheaper new arrangers like PSR(they have old version of SA1 or 2). So don't argue s**t!...Many in here seem to like tyros4 voices. Get Tyros4(if you are that rich.. LOL) or Korg PA2Xpro or newer PA3X.
You WILL not get nuances control voices(articulation voices) out of Kronos. Its Synth engine simply does not support it.
In fact, Kronos synth engine is just OPPOSITE. It aim to generate its own sounds out of samples/oscillators via various synth engines, effect processor, etc.. while the user control the sound output via joystick, ribboncontrol etc..
Please... stop nonsense demand/opinions.
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