Getting the lead here

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:37 pm

I'm having issues with creating a good patch similar to the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv7CcZVn0Y8

All of my attempts just sound very... dry.

I contacted the artist- he's very busy, so he was only able to send a short response; the basic timbre is a hypersaw layered below a single saw, with it's cutoff being modulated and heavy amounts of distortion applied.

So I've been trying to many different combinations of saw, hyper and distortion to get a decent sound... and it always falls flat.

I can get the background hypersaw just fine; two saws, some detune, hybrid high/lowpass to generate those upper frequencies as well as some EQ around ~10000hz to give it that almost noise-like feel.

Where I'm having trouble is the saw layered over it. I can't seem to give that almost vocal-like characteristic. Do I just need to experiment with different modulation amounts and distortion settings? Any idea about what frequency range I should distort for that vocal characteristic?

I've also tried adding in a second, sync'd saw and modulating it's tune with the cutoff for more of a vocal sound, but still nothing.

I'm stuck, any ideas what I could be missing? The only post-processing I'm doing is compression and delay, should I add anything else to the mix? Any ideas of EQ ranges to boost/cut?

DaniH · Post by **DaniH** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:27 am

I'd say synced saws moderate distortion with a high gain on it. That's what it sounds like to me at least.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:16 am

that's what I thought, but the producer says it's just a single saw. I did try sync modulation anyways, and I can't seem to generate the right tone.

I can do it in 5 seconds on the Slim Phatty, except the the LFO is keytriggered so I can't modulate cutoff overtime without using an outside modulator- and logic doesn't like my SP. Plus, I'd need to use a separate synth for the hypersaw.

On the SP it's just a saw, tons of resonance and full Overload... I don't get why gain boosting the R3's resonant, modulated saw won't work.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Tue May 24, 2011 7:39 pm

accidentally edited my last post instead of posting a new one, woops

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:15 am

One thing you might not realize is that it's not a straight saw - it's a 5th Saw. Start with the DWGS 5thSaw wave, and you'll hear the missing component - the 5th harmonic. The rest is fine tuning the distortion and the harmonics. Use a hard clip waveshape. This is also one of the few examples where I would use Unison - because it's mostly a mono lead. You can fatten it up with a detuned ring mod square, and then carefully use tight FX to thicken it without muddying it. It needs to keep a crisp sound. You can try the Distortion and Cabinet FX, as well as a stereo delay with a very short 20ms or so time. Delay with short timings doesn't even sound like a delay - it just thickens like vocal doubling. The key hear is depth without losing the crisp/sharp/cutting sound.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:46 am

xmlguy wrote:Start with the DWGS 5thSaw wave, and you'll hear the missing component - the 5th harmonic.

MUCH better. You're right, that was definitely the missing link. Now to work on making the supersaw more stabby (which should be helped by compression) and I've got a patch!

Hell, all the other stuff you suggested takes what his patch does and improves it. Just using the 5th got the patch where it needed to be.

Thanks.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:05 am

tpantano wrote:
xmlguy wrote:Start with the DWGS 5thSaw wave, and you'll hear the missing component - the 5th harmonic.
MUCH better. You're right, that was definitely the missing link. Now to work on making the supersaw more stabby (which should be helped by compression) and I've got a patch!

Hell, all the other stuff you suggested takes what his patch does and improves it. Just using the 5th got the patch where it needed to be.

Thanks.

Glad to help! Now you can train your ear to hear that 5th - if it sounds like a guitar power chord - it's probably a 5th or a 3rd. A synth lets us do 5th leads much easier and faster than guitarist can do them, since we can do power chords with one note hit while they have to use at least two strings.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:08 am

I'm assuming it's just implying the fifth though, right? adding it's harmonics but not the actual base frequency?

Also, is anyone else able to pick out the notes better than I can? Because I'm sequencing as much as I know to the R3 and running it in a loop, this way I can work on the patch without playing.

So far I've got the first measure (assuming it's 210 BPM not 105) with the eigth notes
C3 C2 G2 C3 C2 Eb3 C2 F3

but for some reason my ear doesn't want to progress any further...

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:24 am

tpantano wrote:I'm assuming it's just implying the fifth though, right? adding it's harmonics but not the actual base frequency?

Also, is anyone else able to pick out the notes better than I can? Because I'm sequencing as much as I know to the R3 and running it in a loop, this way I can work on the patch without playing.

So far I've got the first measure (assuming it's 210 BPM not 105) with the eigth notes
C3 C2 G2 C3 C2 Eb3 C2 F3

but for some reason my ear doesn't want to progress any further...

Nope, each note is a real perfect fifth. It's a C+G. Every note is a 5th chord. So using the root notes you've given so far, it's really C(3)5 C(2)5 G(2)5 C(3)5 C(2)5 Eb(3)5 C(2)5 F(3)5

You just don't play the fifth on the keyboard - it's part of the patch. When you play C3, you get C(3)5th = C3+G3

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Wed May 25, 2011 3:46 am

xmlguy wrote:
tpantano wrote:I'm assuming it's just implying the fifth though, right? adding it's harmonics but not the actual base frequency?

Also, is anyone else able to pick out the notes better than I can? Because I'm sequencing as much as I know to the R3 and running it in a loop, this way I can work on the patch without playing.

So far I've got the first measure (assuming it's 210 BPM not 105) with the eigth notes
C3 C2 G2 C3 C2 Eb3 C2 F3

but for some reason my ear doesn't want to progress any further...
Nope, each note is a real perfect fifth. It's a C+G. Every note is a 5th chord. So using the root notes you've given so far, it's really C(3)5 C(2)5 G(2)5 C(3)5 C(2)5 Eb(3)5 C(2)5 F(3)5

You just don't play the fifth on the keyboard - it's part of the patch. When you play C3, you get C(3)5th = C3+G3

Any ideas on getting the background hypersaw to sound more like the song? I've been trying different arrangements of saw detunes, unison amounts, filter types and points etc. to get the right frequencies in the mix but can't seem to get it in the right range. It sounds very mid-heavy with some really high frequencies giving it a noisy breathe to me. Will a lot of it be based on mixing?

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:13 am

tpantano wrote:
xmlguy wrote:
tpantano wrote:I'm assuming it's just implying the fifth though, right? adding it's harmonics but not the actual base frequency?

Also, is anyone else able to pick out the notes better than I can? Because I'm sequencing as much as I know to the R3 and running it in a loop, this way I can work on the patch without playing.

So far I've got the first measure (assuming it's 210 BPM not 105) with the eigth notes
C3 C2 G2 C3 C2 Eb3 C2 F3

but for some reason my ear doesn't want to progress any further...
Nope, each note is a real perfect fifth. It's a C+G. Every note is a 5th chord. So using the root notes you've given so far, it's really C(3)5 C(2)5 G(2)5 C(3)5 C(2)5 Eb(3)5 C(2)5 F(3)5

You just don't play the fifth on the keyboard - it's part of the patch. When you play C3, you get C(3)5th = C3+G3
Any ideas on getting the background hypersaw to sound more like the song? I've been trying different arrangements of saw detunes, unison amounts, filter types and points etc. to get the right frequencies in the mix but can't seem to get it in the right range. It sounds very mid-heavy with some really high frequencies giving it a noisy breathe to me. Will a lot of it be based on mixing?

The high frequencies may be entirely do to harmonics of the distortion applied when the saw waves are clipped into square waves. It will take a bit of time to get the right balance. Sometimes I'll spend hours just tuning the filters and FX to get the right mix for a single phrase, where each note hits the right set of harmonics.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:21 am

xmlguy wrote:
tpantano wrote:
xmlguy wrote: Nope, each note is a real perfect fifth. It's a C+G. Every note is a 5th chord. So using the root notes you've given so far, it's really C(3)5 C(2)5 G(2)5 C(3)5 C(2)5 Eb(3)5 C(2)5 F(3)5

You just don't play the fifth on the keyboard - it's part of the patch. When you play C3, you get C(3)5th = C3+G3
Any ideas on getting the background hypersaw to sound more like the song? I've been trying different arrangements of saw detunes, unison amounts, filter types and points etc. to get the right frequencies in the mix but can't seem to get it in the right range. It sounds very mid-heavy with some really high frequencies giving it a noisy breathe to me. Will a lot of it be based on mixing?
The high frequencies may be entirely do to harmonics of the distortion applied when the saw waves are clipped into square waves. It will take a bit of time to get the right balance. Sometimes I'll spend hours just tuning the filters and FX to get the right mix for a single phrase, where each note hits the right set of harmonics.

Wait, should I be applying distortion to both timbres or just the fifth-saw timbre?

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Wed May 25, 2011 5:21 am

You can do it all on one timbre. OSC1 = 5th Saw, OSC2=detuned saw, Waveshaper=SubOscSaw (or Hard Clip).

That's quite a few saws for the price of 1 timbre, since the 5thSaw is a blend of 2 saws. Then you can put motion on OSC2 Tune and WaveShapeDepth with the LFOs. I don't think using a layer is going to give you much here = because there's only one basic sound of each note - not two elements. You'll do better with unison in this case and one timbre.

tpantano · Post by **tpantano** » Wed May 25, 2011 7:48 pm

xmlguy wrote:You can do it all on one timbre. OSC1 = 5th Saw, OSC2=detuned saw, Waveshaper=SubOscSaw (or Hard Clip).

That's quite a few saws for the price of 1 timbre, since the 5thSaw is a blend of 2 saws. Then you can put motion on OSC2 Tune and WaveShapeDepth with the LFOs. I don't think using a layer is going to give you much here = because there's only one basic sound of each note - not two elements. You'll do better with unison in this case and one timbre.

With distortion, the second saw causes... how do I put this... sort of, counter-rotations against the modulated filter. it makes it peak at a random repeated interval, rather than with smooth regularity of an LFO.

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Wed May 25, 2011 8:28 pm

as usual, you are making it too difficult [I gotta chance my signature motto back to "less is more!"].

effects are not really that much. There's just a light distortion. Light as in light.

it's just a very basic sync.

try the following parameters

osc 1 pulse wave, starting width 50%. pitch = e3

osc 2 saw, pitch = c2 (less than osc 1, of course)

sharp attack on both filter and amp envelope

one LFO modulates osc 1 frequency

another lfo modulates osc 1 pulse width

Filter is a 24db LPF

filter settings: cutoff 65/70% of range, resonance 33% of range, env amount 35% of range

find a way (pedal, aftertouch, velocity) to move the LFOs' amplitude

add some portamento

make it a mono/unison patch

try this. only AFTER that, add some slight distorsion

no need to "super" anything.