Roland's and Yamaha's plans to surpass the Kronos?

balfi · Post by **balfi** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:53 pm

Yeah you are right Apex. I blame my fact checker..it's her night off lol. Still...could be interesting..and would solve your quandry about whether or not to open the box!!

Morshu · Post by **Morshu** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:58 pm

The motif gave me chills because of some of the immensely powerful sounds it had, but it sucked because they appeared to all be samples? no real synthesizer, and when you adjust cutoff and resonance, it makes this wierd splitting noise as you turn it, its not smooth like it should be. I could complain about the motif forever, but i have to acknowledge its power. Still, i hate yamaha with a burning passion for not releasing anything thats a real synth in so long. (most of those things you posted as REAL synths, werent quite synths in my opinion, they were more like romplers aside from maybe 3 of them like the dx200 and an200 or whatever it was called)

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:46 pm

apex wrote:
balfi wrote:Someone in the motifator forum said the word is out (yeah yeah another rumor) that Yamaha is going to announce a motif xf rack at Winter NAMM. That would certainly sit well with the Kronos. I saw your response to that in motifator Apex
see rumors are horrible...

this is an exact copy of his post...

Talking about racks, some guys have said that maybe we’ll see the Motif XF rack this Winter NAMM. I think that is possible, considering Motif XS rack hit the market one year later than Motif XS workstation…

what he said and what you said is two different things.... lol[/i]

Oh I'm the guy who said that LOL

But yes it's important for all of you to know the fact of a Motif XF rack is just speculation...

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:29 am

Still, i hate yamaha with a burning passion for not releasing anything thats a real synth in so long.

The synth market is small, compared to, say, the guitar market, and the real synth market is much smaller. Real synths don't sell well. Period.

The AN1x, my favorite VA synth, didn't sell in a large number despite its low price. The Waldorf Q didn't sell well. The Korg Z1 didn't sell well. The Adromeda didn't sell well. The list goes on and on.

The only modern (sort of) real synths that sold well are the JP-8000 and Access Virus. But their sales figures pale in comparison to a typical rompler sales.

BTW, do you own a real synth?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:39 am

Chriskk wrote:
Still, i hate yamaha with a burning passion for not releasing anything thats a real synth in so long.
The synth market is small, compared to, say, the guitar market, and the real synth market is much smaller. Real synths don't sell well. Period.

The AN1x, my favorite VA synth, didn't sell in a large number despite its low price. The Waldorf Q didn't sell well. The Korg Z1 didn't sell well. The Adromeda didn't sell well. The list goes on and on.

The only modern (sort of) real synths that sold well are the JP-8000 and Access Virus. But their sales figures pale in comparison to a typical rompler sales.

I don't know what the sales figures are, but while Yamaha has no real synths in their line, Roland has the Gaia and V-Synth; Korg has Micro-Korg, Micro-Korg XL, and R3. Then there are the ones from Moog, Dave Smith, Alesis/Akai, Nord, Novation. So I don't know if "no market" really explains why Yamaha doesn't have anything.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:23 am

Scott wrote:I don't know what the sales figures are, but while Yamaha has no real synths in their line, Roland has the Gaia and V-Synth; Korg has Micro-Korg, Micro-Korg XL, and R3. Then there are the ones from Moog, Dave Smith, Alesis/Akai, Nord, Novation. So I don't know if "no market" really explains why Yamaha doesn't have anything.

Yamaha really only has AWM2 as their synth engine for all their current workstation and synths. I think they should get something new and maybe with some cool modulation features like AMS, step sequencer, mod sequencers, etc. AWM2 has been on the market since late 90's if I'm not mistaken. In comparison with the same timeline, Korg has many more synth engines to offer: HI, MMT, EDS, Kronos (replace this with the 9 synth engines)

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:41 am

AWM2 has been on the market since late 90's if I'm not mistaken.

True, but not every AWM2 is the same. Yamaha has made numerous improvements in the AWM2 engine. Yamaha just keeps calling their sample playback engine the AWM2. Yamaha could have easily invented new fancy acronyms.

In contrast, Korg keeps inventing new acronyms for their sample playback engines. ACCESS, HI, EDS, HD-1....they are basically the same.

Vlad_77 · Post by **Vlad_77** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:49 am

Yamaha doesn't need to create a "real" synth. They have a real lion's share of the market and they are smart in just enhancing the Motif. It's a cash cow and Yamaha knows this.

I spent two hours with the Motif XF three days ago and many might laugh but I actually like my X8 better. (Yes the X8 is not a "real" synth either). I am not trashing Yamaha as sales show that scads of people play them. But for me it just didn't have that "buy me now" quality. I felt the same about the M3 when I tested it back when I was considering either it or the X8.

I guess it really comes down to the speculation again that Yamaha does not want/need to better the Kronos.

I posted this earlier but I will reiterate: while I am not looking for a Kronos killer or a do it all keyboard, if I WOULD have to bet on a company that CAN produce something insanely powerful it is Kurzweil. They DO have a track record for innovation and they are making a comeback with the backing of Hyundai. They are being VERY quiet about the next instrument at the moment but there ARE hints here and there.

In a sense, Kurzweil WAS doing some of the stuff that Kronos/OASYS does now way back when. I still marvel at the synthesis power of the PC3x and the K2000RS I own. Kurzweil does need to update the ROM set - ESPECIALLY the stock piano. (They are close to releasing new ROM sets for the PC3 and PC3K series but alas, no new piano). Kurzweil needs to make a user friendly AI - FUNs are not so fun

But having said all of this, I am happy with all of my equipment and I am not looking for a Kronos killer because I do not believe in obsolescence. I am torn between a V-Synth GT (yes, I realize Sina's argument of limited polyphony, but, the GT is NOT made with a workstation gestalt in mind) and a Jupiter 80. Each of these keyboards can do things that nothing in my current can do so I want to add to my palette. I AM keeping my fingers crossed however as it MAY be that I can buy both, then I will retire to my synth attic (I hate caves) and be a happy camper. If it turns out that I can only get one or I cannot get either,m I still have some serious firepower anyway - at least IMHO. Yep, I still love my XV-88. How silly, no?

Ahimsa,
Vlad

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:28 am

"Each of these keyboards can do things that nothing in my current can do so I want to add to my palette."

Excellent statement of my attitude, don't whine about what you have or don't have, learn what you have and add to your palette.

I will go out on a limb.. I believe the big 3 (or 4) will come out with something new and exciting in the next 2 to 5 years

I too have the V-synth GT and JP80 on my short list.

Mystic38 · Post by **Mystic38** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:08 pm

A superset means 100% + ie including all of the above.. in the motif the location of waves in rom are the same from the early days... so the XF is the XS PLUS additional waves.. and similarly for ES > XS
This means that songs and patches created on an XS can be opened, editied and resaved in an XF.. (imagine being able to seamless convert fantom X sounds and songs into a FG).. this is a big PLUS for yamaha and a strong reason for the good customer retention rates, despite the motif being limited in many ways vs both roland and korg.

apex wrote:what exactly do you mean by "superset" of the XF soundset..."best of"? And all things considered... Kronos may not outsell for the simple fact of when the XF was released... the loyal Motifers already did their upgrade, so money for the Kronos may not be "available"....

and the massive customer base of the motif is not only based on their soundset (but it is a large portion), but also their pattern mode sequencer and DAW compatibility. With that said, if they release a "non-workstation" type of synth, do you think their customer base would remain faithful?... if that's the case, then why aren't the s90 series boards sales through the roof... that's essentially what an s90 xs is right? An XS without a sequencer/sampler?

Zeroesque · Post by **Zeroesque** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Randelph wrote:A waste of forum space, folks trippin on Sina172. Like the OP requested, let's stay on topic!

Personally, I'm waiting for Yamaha and Roland to make something incredibly user friendly. OK, maybe Roland.

The keyboard market is not that large, and the main innovations for workstations have come from Japan. They're well know for making gadgets of every which sort.

But you get someone like Apple or Clavia, and suddenly what was accessible mainly to technically oriented folks can be grokked by a larger mainstream audience. I LOVE my Nord Stage, both for its sounds and ergonomics, and its a welcome relief sometimes to just play and not fuss with technology.

There IS obviously a market for such advanced instruments like the Kronos, but now that lcd screens, faster processors, flash memory, etc. is widely and cheaply available, there will come a time when an Apple like product blazes across the scene, bringing more of the hip to keyboards, similar to the popularity of guitars.

What I've wanted for sometime now is a party keyboard:
> Killer boom box speakers built-in (like 3x's more powerful than the best onboard keyboard speakers out there)
> A small mixer on the top panel: a coupla mic inputs, guitar input, knob accessible reverb
> Drum pads setup FOR A SECOND PLAYER (one guy on keys, one guy on the drum pads)
> Full drum machine capability: not like the M3 or Kronos, which has an accessible but one unchanging pattern at a time- this would presumably be located with the drum pads, and would be optimized for fun and intuitive beat creation and stringing patterns
> Similar setup for fx so that another player could manipulate fx in real time
> In addition to its internally mounted power supply, there'd be an input for 12 volts, so that with a car battery you could play anywhere
> In an ideal world, it'd be a folding keyboard, under 40 pounds and under $2,000!

But beyond that fantasy... Roland and Korg are obviously showing the way. Korg has managed a dedicated Muse Receptor type of sound generation, relying on software driven sound engines, to which they can add endlessly to, as well as streaming sample delivery- both of those technologies/approaches are going to be part of the next generations; and of course Roland is showing how far you can go with modeling technology, which will also be the basis for much to come.

But regardless of the technology used, the next REALLY BIG thing will be when some of this exciting stuff is honed into a user experience that doesn't require such a huge investment of time and expertise.

The problem with this vision is that it takes a relatively large amount of talent, experience and possibly equipment to entertain people by playing a keyboard as compared to, say, strumming a guitar. It takes even more practice to sing while playing a keyboard as opposed to, say, singing while strumming a guitar. And most people can't keep a beat to play the drums, even on pads.

That said, I believe the really big thing you're talking about has already happened and actually exists in several forms: karaoke, home keyboards (Casio, Yamaha portables), Acid/Fruity Loops, and Guitar Hero-type games. I'm not sure if there's anything meaningful in combining any of those or anything meaningful in trying to bridge the gap between pro keys and any of those beyond what currently exists in arranger workstations.

But if you really have a vision, I say you should try something and maybe become the Steve Jobs of the synth world!

jeebustrain · Post by **jeebustrain** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:47 pm

Vlad_77 wrote: In a sense, Kurzweil WAS doing some of the stuff that Kronos/OASYS does now way back when. I still marvel at the synthesis power of the PC3x and the K2000RS I own. Kurzweil does need to update the ROM set - ESPECIALLY the stock piano. (They are close to releasing new ROM sets for the PC3 and PC3K series but alas, no new piano). Kurzweil needs to make a user friendly AI - FUNs are not so fun

new ROM sets for the PC3 series? sweet!

You're right about the Kurz UI. While I know that it's an amazingly powerful instrument, I have a hard time really understanding VAST very well. I can tweak sounds, but haven't been able to build anything from scratch yet.

As far as Yamaha and Roland go - I have never really been into Roland synths, so I won't comment on any of that (even though I wouldn't mind a V-Synth just to have one). I had a Motif6 at one point (the original) and really liked the sequencer and thought the programming interface was intuative, but was fairly underwhelmed with the ROM and the overall sound. It became a bit more usable for me when I incorporated the VA PLG card, but I still ended up getting rid of it after I got my Fusion. I've followed Yamaha over the years and have tried out about every Motif line since then and they all sound the same to me - the EPs and acoustic sounds are nice, but the synth sounds, cheesy organs, and other pseudo-analog-ish type noises all sound like artificial junk to my ears. Very lo-fi and over processed. And when Yamaha dropped the PLG capability, it was the nail in the coffin for me. Then again, I don't think I'm part of their target market these days.

I would love to see some sort of Kronos-like Yamaha super synth, with a virtual CS80, modeled CP80, GL-1, SY99, etc... All the groundbreaking stuff they've done over the years. I kind of doubt that will happen though - they seem to be firmly in the direction of either the Chick Corea/Stevie Wonder types (mostly Pianos and EPs) or the amateur Hip-Hop producer (relying more on sequencer functionality and a lot of "good enough" canned sounds and arps).

That's just my own ignorant opinion though.

Vlad_77 · Post by **Vlad_77** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:12 pm

I don't think your opinion is ignorant at all Jeebustrain especially in light of the fact that you have played every iteration of Yamaha. I really am convinced that it goes back to the notion that Yamaha has a secure market position that I believe the other three big manufacturers don't have.

Yamaha DID have some great synths in the past though. And what's cool about Kronos is that we get a DX-7 for free in MOD-7. I t does make me curious though as to why Yamaha didn't integrate their older innovative synths WITH the Motif series. It seems to me at least that at the time it would have been real gravy.

I do like Roland keyboards as evidenced by my current rig list and as I stated the next possible additions are either a JP 80 or a V-Synth GT. I find more and more that I am leaning to the GT because of its experimental nature. While I am certain that Supernatural is very cool thanks to the balanced reviews of RonF and Bruce Lychee, I really do have enough instrument emulations in my existing gear. To me at least, there is almost a mythic quality about the V-Synth. I have talked to really die-hard Roland fans - and I mean HARD CORE they will play nothing ELSE but Roland - state that the V-Synth was the last real synth Roland produced.

Truth be told though I have barely gotten into the depths of Kronos. The extra sound banks with the impending OS update will allow me to explore more fully and just maybe my G.A.S. for a V-Synth might be alleviated!

Ahimsa,
Vlad

jeebustrain · Post by **jeebustrain** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:22 pm

Vlad_77 wrote: Yamaha DID have some great synths in the past though. And what's cool about Kronos is that we get a DX-7 for free in MOD-7. I t does make me curious though as to why Yamaha didn't integrate their older innovative synths WITH the Motif series. It seems to me at least that at the time it would have been real gravy.

they technically did on the original Motifs with the PLG cards - they had a VA card, a VL1 card, a DX card, and a couple others. But the actual interface was a bit kloodgy (and made bootup dog slow). Only about 1/3 of the parameters (I can only speak to the VA one since that was all I had) were available on-board. Everything else you needed the PC editor for (which was a buggy POS). They sounded really good though - fat and rich - and the aliasing on the VA card was smooth as butter - and you could stack 3 cards together if you wanted to gain more polyphony.

It's a shame that they seem to take the same approach with their flagship keyboards that they do with their toy home keyboards that are sold at Wal-Mart.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:42 pm

jeebustrain wrote:new ROM sets for the PC3 series? sweet!

You're right about the Kurz UI. While I know that it's an amazingly powerful instrument, I have a hard time really understanding VAST very well. I can tweak sounds, but haven't been able to build anything from scratch yet.

What's tripping you over? Please compile a list of questions and PM me, I'll gladly help you understand VAST more. It's not really that hard.