I've always used KORG synths, but 2XPro is my first arranger. Want to try driving the Style with a MIDId electric guitar, but don't know if it's possible. (?) Want your opinions and suggestions. Has anyone tried this?
THANKS, Lefty
can an electric guitar drive arranger?
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karmathanever
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I have never had the opportunity to try this but if you can get the keyboard to receive MIDI data (notes etc,,) then it has to work.
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guitar > arranger issue
Thanks, Karmathanever, for your response and comment.
I seem to recall an oblique reference to doing this in the 2XPro demo video (NAMM?), but thought maybe I just imagined it. Didn't want to spend time pursuing the idea if it was not feasible. Would be great for multi-instrumentalists if it worked.
Don't have all my ducks in a row yet to attempt this, but will report on it as I move forward.
All the best, Lefty7
I seem to recall an oblique reference to doing this in the 2XPro demo video (NAMM?), but thought maybe I just imagined it. Didn't want to spend time pursuing the idea if it was not feasible. Would be great for multi-instrumentalists if it worked.
Don't have all my ducks in a row yet to attempt this, but will report on it as I move forward.
All the best, Lefty7
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Bruno 123
- Full Member
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:17 am
- Location: West Palm Beach, Florida
When I moved to Florida in 1984 there was little call for a guitar player so I bought a Yamaha keyboard. I sang and played the guitar on some songs and played songs on the keyboard where the guitar did no justice.
Two years later I added a midi pick-up to my guitar and bought a Roland unit that received the guitar signal and sent it to the keyboard via a Midi wire. I was able to trigger any instrument on the keyboard with my guitar. The midi channel must be the same on the guitar and the keyboard. The left hand on my new Technics keyboard was set to channel five keyboard; I set the guitar unit (Roland) to send the midi message on the same channel –channel five.
Now I was able to control keyboard as if I was playing my left (for the chords) which gave me a guitar chord strum, my voice and the complete accompaniment of the keyboard.
As nice as I thought that was I could not play solos on either instrument. Now I will use Midi file (Sequence) as my background and I am free to do whatever with my guitar. After many years of playing I am consider a keyboardist and use my guitar on rare occasions.
Just sharing, John C.
Two years later I added a midi pick-up to my guitar and bought a Roland unit that received the guitar signal and sent it to the keyboard via a Midi wire. I was able to trigger any instrument on the keyboard with my guitar. The midi channel must be the same on the guitar and the keyboard. The left hand on my new Technics keyboard was set to channel five keyboard; I set the guitar unit (Roland) to send the midi message on the same channel –channel five.
Now I was able to control keyboard as if I was playing my left (for the chords) which gave me a guitar chord strum, my voice and the complete accompaniment of the keyboard.
As nice as I thought that was I could not play solos on either instrument. Now I will use Midi file (Sequence) as my background and I am free to do whatever with my guitar. After many years of playing I am consider a keyboardist and use my guitar on rare occasions.
Just sharing, John C.
Guitar/MIDI shopping #1
Thanks, John. Your comments and others have encouraged me to go forward with this; I think it can work. For me, the next step is to have MIDId guitar.
A search on the Musician's Friend website for "midi guitar" yielded 35 matches.
On the high end, there were some actual MIDI guitars: (2) by Line 6, supported by their Variax software, ($1200-$1500); (2) by Godin, ($1600); and the Parker Fly Mojo, (+$4000). The Godin and Parker Fly integrate with the Roland system and/or Boss effects. These are obviously offered as synth guitars to bona fide professional (or well-healed!) GUITAR PLAYERS. Using one of these as a MIDI controller would be major overkill.
X-Trade mentioned the cheap ones designed as game controllers. MF lists the You Rock Guitar (YRG-1000) MIDI Controller Electric Guitar, new for $199, (used: $159). This has frets and simulated strings, not buttons, and comes preloaded with customizable presets, 25 sample guitar sounds, 99 synth sounds, etc.
I waded through all 23 user reviews. To me, the general consensus seemed to be that real guitar players - who were buying this as some type of alternate guitar - thought it, and most of its onboard sounds, were somewhere between disappointing and useless junk. But the people who were looking for a MIDI controller/guitar liked it, and some were apparently having a lot of fun with it. It is far from perfect, though; one reviewer referred to it as "a great idea whose time has not yet come." I was getting pretty jazzed about the thing until I read that there IS NO STRING MUTING. (A jazz-player reviewer mentioned that he can't play a chord using only strings 6-4-3-2, because strings 1 and 5 will 'sound' whether you want them to or not.) I'm a lefty player, playing right-hand strings upside down - so, for me, this was the kiss of death, and my search continues. But for someone else who doesn't have a problem with the string mute issue, it might be a very cool (and affordable) thing.
Next time, I'll share whatever shopping details I come up with for guitar/MIDI conversion boxes and rack-mount components. Seems obvious that that's the way I must go...
Have some fun,
Lefty
A search on the Musician's Friend website for "midi guitar" yielded 35 matches.
On the high end, there were some actual MIDI guitars: (2) by Line 6, supported by their Variax software, ($1200-$1500); (2) by Godin, ($1600); and the Parker Fly Mojo, (+$4000). The Godin and Parker Fly integrate with the Roland system and/or Boss effects. These are obviously offered as synth guitars to bona fide professional (or well-healed!) GUITAR PLAYERS. Using one of these as a MIDI controller would be major overkill.
X-Trade mentioned the cheap ones designed as game controllers. MF lists the You Rock Guitar (YRG-1000) MIDI Controller Electric Guitar, new for $199, (used: $159). This has frets and simulated strings, not buttons, and comes preloaded with customizable presets, 25 sample guitar sounds, 99 synth sounds, etc.
I waded through all 23 user reviews. To me, the general consensus seemed to be that real guitar players - who were buying this as some type of alternate guitar - thought it, and most of its onboard sounds, were somewhere between disappointing and useless junk. But the people who were looking for a MIDI controller/guitar liked it, and some were apparently having a lot of fun with it. It is far from perfect, though; one reviewer referred to it as "a great idea whose time has not yet come." I was getting pretty jazzed about the thing until I read that there IS NO STRING MUTING. (A jazz-player reviewer mentioned that he can't play a chord using only strings 6-4-3-2, because strings 1 and 5 will 'sound' whether you want them to or not.) I'm a lefty player, playing right-hand strings upside down - so, for me, this was the kiss of death, and my search continues. But for someone else who doesn't have a problem with the string mute issue, it might be a very cool (and affordable) thing.
Next time, I'll share whatever shopping details I come up with for guitar/MIDI conversion boxes and rack-mount components. Seems obvious that that's the way I must go...
Have some fun,
Lefty
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Bruno 123
- Full Member
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:17 am
- Location: West Palm Beach, Florida
Lefty, in the quality area there are two items: 1- The guitar to Midi pickup. If you have a favorite guitar of your own it is possible to use it by mounting the pick up on your guitar. 2- This unit receives the signal and sends it to the keyboard or a sound module. The Guitars that have all of this built in are normally expensive -- the cheaper units do a poor job.
I had a guitar which was set up so that each string on the guitar was sent separately to the sound module; meaning that I could have six different instrument sounds, (Not useable) But having the 5th and 6th stings trigger a bass guitar and the remaining four for melody was good.
Keep in mind that the units of today are better than the one I had years ago. Nevertheless my main complaint; when I played fast notes the unit delayed them. When I cut my chords to create a rhythm the unit became confused as to which chord to play.
Because I now play a keyboard on the job, I can control all the sounds with ease; no effort that is how the keyboard is set up. The guitar is not. My bottom line (and no reflection on what you are thinking of doing) is that the guitar in itself has such a beautiful sound I decided to not change it with all the available gimmicks. The amount of effort I would be putting into the midi set up I put into my playing.
Having said all of that – it was fun playing when I owned it. They made a unit for guitar that allowed you to play your chords and you were able to control the type of chord; major, minor, dom7th, minor 7th with the volume foot pedal. Can you imagine Singing, playing chords, your foot selecting one of the above and a customer walks up to ask for a request. aaaaah. I returned the unit.
I hope some of this helps. John C.
I had a guitar which was set up so that each string on the guitar was sent separately to the sound module; meaning that I could have six different instrument sounds, (Not useable) But having the 5th and 6th stings trigger a bass guitar and the remaining four for melody was good.
Keep in mind that the units of today are better than the one I had years ago. Nevertheless my main complaint; when I played fast notes the unit delayed them. When I cut my chords to create a rhythm the unit became confused as to which chord to play.
Because I now play a keyboard on the job, I can control all the sounds with ease; no effort that is how the keyboard is set up. The guitar is not. My bottom line (and no reflection on what you are thinking of doing) is that the guitar in itself has such a beautiful sound I decided to not change it with all the available gimmicks. The amount of effort I would be putting into the midi set up I put into my playing.
Having said all of that – it was fun playing when I owned it. They made a unit for guitar that allowed you to play your chords and you were able to control the type of chord; major, minor, dom7th, minor 7th with the volume foot pedal. Can you imagine Singing, playing chords, your foot selecting one of the above and a customer walks up to ask for a request. aaaaah. I returned the unit.
I hope some of this helps. John C.
Shadow converter - and why bother?
Thanks again, John, for your views on this. It’s all helpful.
I know you understand what I’m trying to do, but for others, I’ll restate it: I want the chords coming from a MIDI guitar source to be scanned and recognized, to drive the Style Play of my 2XPro.
There are several answers as to WHY I want to do this. While I write some material on the keyboard, usually I write using a guitar, and I need get the guitar-written material up and running quickly. (I’ve spent years building up rhythm tracks one lonely sound or instrument at a time.) I see the use of Style as a way to streamline my production process, and it was one of the reasons I bought the 2X. And I’m very happy to say it works great for this purpose when I’m on the keyboard.
So why not just play those same chords on the keyboard? Why bother with the guitar idea? You who are (or were!) guitar players will get this. I’m a lefty player – sort of. That is to say, I’m one of those crazy individuals who taught themselves to play left-handed using a right-handed guitar turned upside down. So I play lefty-but-strung-righty. And because of that, I play some chords that no regular guitar player could ever play – unless they were righty, playing a fully left-handed ax flipped over. I’ve learned to make use of these unorthodox voicings, and would like to run them straight into the 2X for chord recognition, (they are some weird ones!), and the unit’s Style accompaniment.
Understand that I have no intention of retaining the MIDI guitar track. It would just be a chordal cue for the Style to follow. The real guitar tracks would be added later, elsewhere.
Back at the Musician’s Fiend (sic) website, most of the ‘matches’ for midi guitar don’t apply here. There are several small “MIDI conversion” boxes by Sonnuus for guitar, bass, etc. ($99-$150), but they are monophonic and won’t do chords. Others are stompbox-type pedals designed to control amplifiers made by the same makers.
Then there is the “Shadow Quick Mount Guitar to MIDI converter system” (at a fast $650, MF price). Ouch. This has a pickup, and is along the lines of what you described – and might just do the job – provided one is willing to blow those bucks. I’m considering it, and will have to look into it.
Thanks for the help.
Have some fun,
Lefty
I know you understand what I’m trying to do, but for others, I’ll restate it: I want the chords coming from a MIDI guitar source to be scanned and recognized, to drive the Style Play of my 2XPro.
There are several answers as to WHY I want to do this. While I write some material on the keyboard, usually I write using a guitar, and I need get the guitar-written material up and running quickly. (I’ve spent years building up rhythm tracks one lonely sound or instrument at a time.) I see the use of Style as a way to streamline my production process, and it was one of the reasons I bought the 2X. And I’m very happy to say it works great for this purpose when I’m on the keyboard.
So why not just play those same chords on the keyboard? Why bother with the guitar idea? You who are (or were!) guitar players will get this. I’m a lefty player – sort of. That is to say, I’m one of those crazy individuals who taught themselves to play left-handed using a right-handed guitar turned upside down. So I play lefty-but-strung-righty. And because of that, I play some chords that no regular guitar player could ever play – unless they were righty, playing a fully left-handed ax flipped over. I’ve learned to make use of these unorthodox voicings, and would like to run them straight into the 2X for chord recognition, (they are some weird ones!), and the unit’s Style accompaniment.
Understand that I have no intention of retaining the MIDI guitar track. It would just be a chordal cue for the Style to follow. The real guitar tracks would be added later, elsewhere.
Back at the Musician’s Fiend (sic) website, most of the ‘matches’ for midi guitar don’t apply here. There are several small “MIDI conversion” boxes by Sonnuus for guitar, bass, etc. ($99-$150), but they are monophonic and won’t do chords. Others are stompbox-type pedals designed to control amplifiers made by the same makers.
Then there is the “Shadow Quick Mount Guitar to MIDI converter system” (at a fast $650, MF price). Ouch. This has a pickup, and is along the lines of what you described – and might just do the job – provided one is willing to blow those bucks. I’m considering it, and will have to look into it.
Thanks for the help.
Have some fun,
Lefty
The Graphtech Ghost Pickup System + Hexpander MIDI Interface can be fitted to any standard guitar, and might be what you are looking for.
Andy
Shadow vs. Graph Tech; MIDI converters
Thanks, Andy, for the tip about the Graph Tech system. OK. "Hexpander": ‘hex’=6, that is, 6 individual assignable MIDI channels – one per string. Not mono! (You are, of course, also correct in regard to the Line 6 Variax guitars.)
If anyone is interested, here's a quick comparison between two guitar-to-MIDI systems currently being offered: the Shadow Quick Mount vs. Graph Tech. (And, of course, I'd like to hear from anyone who knows more about them.)
The “Shadow Quick Mount Guitar to MIDI Converter System” is apparently a complete system ($650; there were no reviews.) No modifications to instrument. The detachable hex magnetic pickup mounts “in seconds!” to the strap button of any electric or acoustic steel string guitar. Once the analog signals from strings are converted, analyzed, and the pitch determined, the microprocessor sends note and velocity data (as standard MIDI message) to any MIDI synth, sequencer or computer. The keypad (which can be mounted on the guitar) allows MIDI program changes (0-99). There was no mention as to power, so I assume battery.
The “Graph Tech Ghost Pickup System and Hexpander MIDI Interface”, on the other hand, is sold in component pieces. This system requires some routing and modifications to the instrument to install the 13-pin jack and preamp module. Power is conveyed through the 13-pin from a converter, so no battery. (This basic part of the system is $250; no reviews.) Then, according to your particular guitar application, you must select and purchase the correct loaded saddle(s) or bridge MIDI pickup, and exchange it with the original saddle(s)/bridge. (Not to be confused with the guitar’s conventional pickups; they stay where they are.) The MIDI pickups are offered in various configurations for the particular guitar involved. (The pickup adds another $110-$200. And when calculating price, don’t forget that you still need to modify the ax and make the installation.) Once installed, it’s ready to plug into pitch-to-MIDI converters by Roland, (GR33; GR-55; GI-20; VG99; V Bass); the McMillen StringPort, Axon, (AX-50; AX-100), the Yamaha G50, "and many more.”
In the Graph Tech system, with the basic (preamp) kit plus the hex pickup installed, you still need to send it to a pitch-to-MIDI converter before it can talk to the Korg unit. Such a converter is not offered by GT.
So I'm considering what to use here. Any suggestions? Wish KORG had something to offer me here, with regard to the pitch-to-MIDI conversion. The Z3 came out in 1990; waiting for Korg to offer something new for guitar players but so far NADA.
Most of the Roland units mentioned above are guitar or bass synths ($800-$1600) except the GI-20, MIDI Guitar Interface (which is no longer in production; it retailed for about $500.) StringPort and the Axon units contain sounds, and are controlled via editing software, obviously designed for computer-based recording. The Yamaha G50 has been discontinued.
I know this is a Korg forum, and I’m talking MIDI guitars. But I love that instant-band (without a rehearsal!) aspect of the Style from my 2X, and want it to work with a guitar also. Should be cool when it's working.
Have some fun,
Lefty
If anyone is interested, here's a quick comparison between two guitar-to-MIDI systems currently being offered: the Shadow Quick Mount vs. Graph Tech. (And, of course, I'd like to hear from anyone who knows more about them.)
The “Shadow Quick Mount Guitar to MIDI Converter System” is apparently a complete system ($650; there were no reviews.) No modifications to instrument. The detachable hex magnetic pickup mounts “in seconds!” to the strap button of any electric or acoustic steel string guitar. Once the analog signals from strings are converted, analyzed, and the pitch determined, the microprocessor sends note and velocity data (as standard MIDI message) to any MIDI synth, sequencer or computer. The keypad (which can be mounted on the guitar) allows MIDI program changes (0-99). There was no mention as to power, so I assume battery.
The “Graph Tech Ghost Pickup System and Hexpander MIDI Interface”, on the other hand, is sold in component pieces. This system requires some routing and modifications to the instrument to install the 13-pin jack and preamp module. Power is conveyed through the 13-pin from a converter, so no battery. (This basic part of the system is $250; no reviews.) Then, according to your particular guitar application, you must select and purchase the correct loaded saddle(s) or bridge MIDI pickup, and exchange it with the original saddle(s)/bridge. (Not to be confused with the guitar’s conventional pickups; they stay where they are.) The MIDI pickups are offered in various configurations for the particular guitar involved. (The pickup adds another $110-$200. And when calculating price, don’t forget that you still need to modify the ax and make the installation.) Once installed, it’s ready to plug into pitch-to-MIDI converters by Roland, (GR33; GR-55; GI-20; VG99; V Bass); the McMillen StringPort, Axon, (AX-50; AX-100), the Yamaha G50, "and many more.”
In the Graph Tech system, with the basic (preamp) kit plus the hex pickup installed, you still need to send it to a pitch-to-MIDI converter before it can talk to the Korg unit. Such a converter is not offered by GT.
So I'm considering what to use here. Any suggestions? Wish KORG had something to offer me here, with regard to the pitch-to-MIDI conversion. The Z3 came out in 1990; waiting for Korg to offer something new for guitar players but so far NADA.
Most of the Roland units mentioned above are guitar or bass synths ($800-$1600) except the GI-20, MIDI Guitar Interface (which is no longer in production; it retailed for about $500.) StringPort and the Axon units contain sounds, and are controlled via editing software, obviously designed for computer-based recording. The Yamaha G50 has been discontinued.
I know this is a Korg forum, and I’m talking MIDI guitars. But I love that instant-band (without a rehearsal!) aspect of the Style from my 2X, and want it to work with a guitar also. Should be cool when it's working.
Have some fun,
Lefty
Last edited by Lefty7 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
more info
Some follow-up info:
The Shadow system is from a W. German maker, with little or no tech support in US. I located only one review from an owner/user. After shelling out $650, he was not overly thrilled; also, he had taken too long to determine the new unit had a potential problem, and could no longer return it for exchange. (Sound familiar? I've done this more than once.)
It appears that guitarists almost unanimously prefer the Graph Tech hex pickup and preamp system over the Roland offerings.
Also, the Roland guitar synths don't get high marks with regard to tracking and latency of incoming MIDI signal. Of course, this is dependent on the user's knowledge of adjustments in signal level, sensitivity, etc. Overall, the best reviews in this area went to Axon, especially the AX-100, which is out of production, off the shelves, and not even on ebay.
At this point, I'm still deciding on what to use for the MIDI or "synth access" guitar. Was planning on building one from a cheap but playable Telecaster, but Carvin makes several that utilize the Graph Tech components - already installed and ready to go - for about what it would cost to build one, (meaning one less thing to farkle with).
I just want to make this work. I didn't really want a guitar synth, just a pitch-to-MIDI conversion to send to the Pa2X Pro. But I may have to get a guitar synth just to get that converter I need.
Hey, we need a guitar synth, Korg! Roland gave it a shot, and inadvertently did a lot of your R&D for you. Isn't it time you stepped forward? There are a lot of guitar players just waiting for this technology to bump up a notch.
So I'm waiting to see what the NAMM show brings.
Have some fun everyone,
Lefty
The Shadow system is from a W. German maker, with little or no tech support in US. I located only one review from an owner/user. After shelling out $650, he was not overly thrilled; also, he had taken too long to determine the new unit had a potential problem, and could no longer return it for exchange. (Sound familiar? I've done this more than once.)
It appears that guitarists almost unanimously prefer the Graph Tech hex pickup and preamp system over the Roland offerings.
Also, the Roland guitar synths don't get high marks with regard to tracking and latency of incoming MIDI signal. Of course, this is dependent on the user's knowledge of adjustments in signal level, sensitivity, etc. Overall, the best reviews in this area went to Axon, especially the AX-100, which is out of production, off the shelves, and not even on ebay.
At this point, I'm still deciding on what to use for the MIDI or "synth access" guitar. Was planning on building one from a cheap but playable Telecaster, but Carvin makes several that utilize the Graph Tech components - already installed and ready to go - for about what it would cost to build one, (meaning one less thing to farkle with).
I just want to make this work. I didn't really want a guitar synth, just a pitch-to-MIDI conversion to send to the Pa2X Pro. But I may have to get a guitar synth just to get that converter I need.
Hey, we need a guitar synth, Korg! Roland gave it a shot, and inadvertently did a lot of your R&D for you. Isn't it time you stepped forward? There are a lot of guitar players just waiting for this technology to bump up a notch.
So I'm waiting to see what the NAMM show brings.
Have some fun everyone,
Lefty
Well, nothing new in this arena at NAMM 2012, so I'm going forward with studio project: Driving This Arranger. I think it is too good of an idea to let it drop, so am willing to throw some money at it to find out.
Here's an update and some MORE FOLLOW-UP: In considering the MIDI guitar, I find that Carvin in San Diego will build me a custom-ordered Graph Tech-equipped "synth access" 6-string electric for the same or less money than if I built one using an inexpensive Mex-built instrument, so I'm going with that. It's on order; 6-8 wks. for delivery. They have several different models available so equipped. I have dealt with them and played one of their basses for years. The quality of materials and construction is top rate, as is customer service, and I get an especially good deal buying it direct.
For the pitch-to-MIDI conversion with assignable channels, I'm going with the Roland GI-20. They are out of production and N/A at all music stores and outlets, so I went to ebay for one. It is supposedly 'mint', and is on the way. (I might have preferred to buy a MIDI box from Korg, but none is offered.)
So the required hardware is on its way. If it works, I'll report it here, or I'll be here asking a lot more questions; probably both.
Thank you all for your help so far.
There will be a delay in our coverage.
~PLEASE STAND BY~
Here's an update and some MORE FOLLOW-UP: In considering the MIDI guitar, I find that Carvin in San Diego will build me a custom-ordered Graph Tech-equipped "synth access" 6-string electric for the same or less money than if I built one using an inexpensive Mex-built instrument, so I'm going with that. It's on order; 6-8 wks. for delivery. They have several different models available so equipped. I have dealt with them and played one of their basses for years. The quality of materials and construction is top rate, as is customer service, and I get an especially good deal buying it direct.
For the pitch-to-MIDI conversion with assignable channels, I'm going with the Roland GI-20. They are out of production and N/A at all music stores and outlets, so I went to ebay for one. It is supposedly 'mint', and is on the way. (I might have preferred to buy a MIDI box from Korg, but none is offered.)
So the required hardware is on its way. If it works, I'll report it here, or I'll be here asking a lot more questions; probably both.
Thank you all for your help so far.
There will be a delay in our coverage.
~PLEASE STAND BY~
