Hey everyone,
a week ago I launched a petition at Change.org regarding the Montage. Yamaha totally screwed up the built-in MIDI recorder which in its present state is a complete and utter train wreck. For the recorder debacle alone Korg is laughing Yamaha out of court right now. Please sign my catalogue of demands. Thank you.
https://www.change.org/p/takuya-nakata- ... orporation
The following petition is aimed at Mr. Takuya Nakata, President and Representative Director of the Yamaha Corporation
Help make an update for the Montage synth a priority for the Yamaha Corporation
With the release of Yamaha's current flagship synthesizer Montage, fans of the now-abandoned Motif series were hopeful that the new instrument would live up to the legacy that the predecessors established. So far their hopes were deceived. Yes, the Montage has its own proprietary built-in MIDI sequencer, called 'Direct Performance Recorder', but unfortunately, upon release, some important features were missing. Basic functions like copying or erasing MIDI data have not been implemented. So far only simultaneous recording of all 16 tracks is allowed – an impossible task with only one pair of hands. One can not fix mistakes made during a recording. There is no point in all of that, due to the fact that we are talking about MIDI data, not audio.
With signing to this petition you ask the Yamaha Corporation to prioritize making an update to the operating system of the Montage synthesizer. These are the recommended improvements:
Implement CONSECUTIVE RECORD: It allows tracks to be recorded one after the other, instead of simultaneously.
Implement LOOP RECORD: Recording takes place repeatedly over a specified area, according to loop point settings.
Implement COPY: This function copies a specified area of recorder data. It is convenient for repeating the same phrase several times.
Implement DELETE: This function deletes a specified area of recorder data, and moves the subsequent data to fill the gap. As a result, the measure length will be shortened by the number of deleted measures.
Implement ERASE: This function erases all the recorder data inside a specified area. As the erased data is replaced by rests, the original measures will remain.
Implement INSERT: This function inserts blank measures into a specified song position.
Implement TRANSPOSE: This function transposes the pitch of notes within a specified area, over a +/- 127 semitone range.
Sign this petition to help make the built-in MIDI recorder of Yamaha's Montage synthesizer useable.
https://www.change.org/p/takuya-nakata- ... orporation
Thank you for participating. 有り難うございます
A link to this petition has been posted at Yamaha's official synthesizer forum. Phil Clendeninn a.k.a. 'Bad Mister', senior technical sales specialist for Yamaha, has been informed.
Sign Change.org Petition re MIDI Recorder of Yamaha Montage!
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
What you are asking for is a midi sequencer. Yamaha made it very clear from the very beginning the direct performance recorder was a not a sequencer and did not have any editing functions. Yamaha said the whole idea was to record your performance on the Montage, then upload the .mid file into your computer DAW for editing.
Your post and list of "demands" show a lack of understanding how the Montage & Motion Control system actually works. Right or wrong, this is how Montage was presented on day 1 of the launch and for the time being, this is this extent of its' functionality as far as the sequencer is concerned. Nothing else was promised. Nobody was deceived.
Your post and list of "demands" show a lack of understanding how the Montage & Motion Control system actually works. Right or wrong, this is how Montage was presented on day 1 of the launch and for the time being, this is this extent of its' functionality as far as the sequencer is concerned. Nothing else was promised. Nobody was deceived.
You are asking for something that will never happen
At the beginning I was interested in the montage but honestly after that I realized about the limitation of the SEQ I gave up
....and most important I completly don't like is the attitude of Yammy fanboy on their forum .... "You have to change your workflow" ... WHY?
I have the Kronos that is so powerfull and with the Kurzweil forte I'm pretty sure to have something much better than the Montage, so I don't care about yamaha anymore
They took a route that, I don't understand, I don't like, and I don't care
I hope Korg don't make the same mistake with the Kronos successor
At the beginning I was interested in the montage but honestly after that I realized about the limitation of the SEQ I gave up
....and most important I completly don't like is the attitude of Yammy fanboy on their forum .... "You have to change your workflow" ... WHY?
I have the Kronos that is so powerfull and with the Kurzweil forte I'm pretty sure to have something much better than the Montage, so I don't care about yamaha anymore
They took a route that, I don't understand, I don't like, and I don't care
I hope Korg don't make the same mistake with the Kronos successor
Svene, it is indead a completely misleading and impertinent description of Yamaha to call that crappy piece of a third rated recorder a "sequencer" LOL
I'm sorry I can't support your request, though. I very well understand your frustration and you have all my sympathy. But in my eyes the Yamaha Montage, despite some nice sounds in it, is a complete misconsception of a musical instrument, to a degree of former misconceptions of well known bad Roland adventures (Fantom G, Integra, JP80 etc. etc.), completely ignoring user workflow and implementing tons of stumbling blocks within pormising synth projects.
I am simply not interested in these forms of brainless misconceptions from company managers, who seem to think, that they know better what musicians need and want, than those musicians do themselves. But like many others, I neither accept nor support such patronizing efforts, accompanied by arrogant nonsense from company staff, towards users who dare to critisize their misfits.
I'm sorry I can't support your request, though. I very well understand your frustration and you have all my sympathy. But in my eyes the Yamaha Montage, despite some nice sounds in it, is a complete misconsception of a musical instrument, to a degree of former misconceptions of well known bad Roland adventures (Fantom G, Integra, JP80 etc. etc.), completely ignoring user workflow and implementing tons of stumbling blocks within pormising synth projects.
I am simply not interested in these forms of brainless misconceptions from company managers, who seem to think, that they know better what musicians need and want, than those musicians do themselves. But like many others, I neither accept nor support such patronizing efforts, accompanied by arrogant nonsense from company staff, towards users who dare to critisize their misfits.
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
Strange, how people buy products that cant do the things they need it to do...Devnor wrote:What you are asking for is a midi sequencer. Yamaha made it very clear from the very beginning the direct performance recorder was a not a sequencer and did not have any editing functions. Yamaha said the whole idea was to record your performance on the Montage, then upload the .mid file into your computer DAW for editing.
Your post and list of "demands" show a lack of understanding how the Montage & Motion Control system actually works. Right or wrong, this is how Montage was presented on day 1 of the launch and for the time being, this is this extent of its' functionality as far as the sequencer is concerned. Nothing else was promised. Nobody was deceived.
Doing research from time to time before buying would consideraly help..
I totally agree with you, and i was thinking everyone knew, the montage was not a workstation but a performance synth with only very basic recording features..
Nevertheless, if you read the brochure it looks as if the Montage has a proper sequencer built in (which includes the basic editing features), and as such it is misleading because of what people have come to expect from a proper sequencer.Devnor wrote:What you are asking for is a midi sequencer. Yamaha made it very clear from the very beginning the direct performance recorder was a not a sequencer and did not have any editing functions. Yamaha said the whole idea was to record your performance on the Montage, then upload the .mid file into your computer DAW for editing.
Your post and list of "demands" show a lack of understanding how the Montage & Motion Control system actually works. Right or wrong, this is how Montage was presented on day 1 of the launch and for the time being, this is this extent of its' functionality as far as the sequencer is concerned. Nothing else was promised. Nobody was deceived.
It would have been better if they simply would have referred to it as a 'performance recorder'.
The fact that Yamaha presenter Bert Smorenburg in preparation for his Sonic State demo had to bypass the recognized problem (no consecutive recording of tracks possible) says it all. He posted a smart but cumbersome workaround at Yamaha Synth forum a few weeks ago:
Some recorder screenshots. The touch display is nice.
The above mentioned workflow ist still a PITA. You still have to record each and every part, measure, chorus etc. of your song individually. How crazy is that? I don´t own a Montage, but I tested its recorder at Superbooth in Berlin in April and later at Music Store, Cologne, Germany. The inability to copy MIDI data--not even within the same track (!)--makes the Montage useless as a basic standalone production tool. We are talking about laughable MIDI data, not huge audio wave files. Remember: Yamaha is the parent company of Steinberg. My guess is they want Montage users to purchase the full-blown Cubase version later also. What if Montage users don´t want to use a DAW? Should they be forced to buy or use outboard gear in order to utilize a feature that is on a 3000 Euro keyboard? From what I read at Motifator they lost every loyal Motif user in a nanosecond, myself included. Having said all of that, they can win me back with a recorder update.I found a fun workaround to make this recorder behave like a multitimbral sequencer. First of all, I programmed several sounds within one Performance: Piano, strings, bass, drums and clavinet. Then, I switched off all Keyboard Control (the green buttons in the main screen) so they all became separately available using Part Control (the orange buttons on the right). I opened the midi recorder, and recorded the piano. Then I put the recorder in Overdub and added the strings, bass, drums etc. until I had a multitrack recording. Actually pretty simple. Before all this, I imported a vocal sample wav from Diana Ross's Upside Down and prepared a Performance with only this sample. So, at the end of my recording session I basically triggered this Diana Ross sample from the keyboard, in time with the recorded music. All pretty simple but quite effective, and obviously discussion material!
Some recorder screenshots. The touch display is nice.
I don't know what you are looking at but if you look at the image above it doesn't say anything about copy/paste, transpose and any of those other requirements. The fact is the Yamaha people were using the terms performance recorder quite often. Not once did a demonstrator discuss editing, transpose or quantizing when talking about the performance recorder.Jan1 wrote:Nevertheless, if you read the brochure it looks as if the Montage has a proper sequencer built in (which includes the basic editing features), and as such it is misleading because of what people have come to expect from a proper sequencer.
It would have been better if they simply would have referred to it as a 'performance recorder'.
To be perfectly honest, all a sequencer needs to do is output midi information. It is the most basic function. It is "sequencing" the note data.
In general, I don't get the hoopla over no internal sequencer. Do you not own another workstation with a sequencer? If not, there are midi sequencers that run on computers, tablets and smart phones not to mention all the legacy sequencing hardware that has been manufactured in the last 30 years. It doesn't have to be a Steinberg product and certainly does not need to be a "full blown" DAW. That narrative is ridiculous.
Contrary to what you might believe svene, not every loyal Motif user is posting on Motifator and there are plenty of Motif users that now own a Montage.
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Kevin Nolan
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@svene -- you're completely missing the point of the syntheizer. It's not a workstation. It's your perspective that's flawed - not the instrument. There is NO hint from Yamaha themselves that this is a workstation; and they have consistently promoted it as a performance synthesizer. They have been upfront about this since they started promoting it. You simply don't get it.
Why aren't you demanding that Moog put a multi track sequencer on their Minimoog Model D reissue?
It's misguided petitions like this that wreck instruments and their prospect for success. Your petition is noise, junk, clutter and a gross misrepresentation based on a wholly flawed perspective. You understand nothing of Yamaha's legacy and strengths, and have nothing useful to say about montage.
It's NOT a workstation - it's a performance synthesizer which delivers significant advantages to traditional romplers with outmoded program/combi (multi) architectures.
Why aren't you demanding that Moog put a multi track sequencer on their Minimoog Model D reissue?
It's misguided petitions like this that wreck instruments and their prospect for success. Your petition is noise, junk, clutter and a gross misrepresentation based on a wholly flawed perspective. You understand nothing of Yamaha's legacy and strengths, and have nothing useful to say about montage.
It's NOT a workstation - it's a performance synthesizer which delivers significant advantages to traditional romplers with outmoded program/combi (multi) architectures.
So why did they implement a 16-track MIDI recorder and 10,000 arpeggios (phrases) into Montage when it´s only a synthesizer? You should read the comments at Yamaha Synth forum. The recorder drives users insane. IT´S A PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY TO RECORD 16 SOUNDS INTO 16 TRACKS IN ONE GO. Whose crazy idea was that? Punch in/out for ALL tracks only? Give me a break. My 400$ Electribe 2 has more to offer, recording-wise. I can hardly believe it.
There´s another bummer. The Montage comes with impressive 10,000 arps. Yamaha arps are like Karma GE´s. Now, get this...
Yamaha decided not to allow Montage users to tweak stock arps within the board and save them into user arp locations (256 built-in). You can't edit arpeggios on the Montage. There is currently no possibility to create user arps outside of the keyboard, unless you buy a Xf or Moxf for that, the Melas software can´t do arps as far as I know. Now, in the past Motif customers had zero reasons to create user arps because they rightly preferred to use the built-in pattern sequencer for that kind of Ableton-like clip production purpose. Now with the Montage BOTH pattern creation AND user arp tweaking are gone. To provide 256 user arp slots only for Motif arps is a slap in the face for those who don´t own a Xf or Moxf. Okay, so no editing of arps is possible inside Montage. But even if Yamaha would have corrected this, how would you put them into tracks when you have to record all tracks simultaneously? The whole concept seems to be flawed. Oh, and btw, there´s no difference between audio and MIDI recording in that regard. In both cases only your performance--everything you play with your fingers + pedal movement--will be stored. Gee, I´d love to put a 4-bar drum arp into track 10, measure 12, and a 4-bar guitar arp into track 3 at measure such-and-such.. My dad´s M-1 from 1989--which came with 100 pattern slots--was able do this, for God´s sake!
To afford Montage users to modify arps within the board would have been a trivialty. Yamaha decided against it. Why? Their engineers should ask themselves why they might have made these errors. Were they in a hurry because they procrastinated? Probably not. Were they stressed out and thinking about something else? I don´t get it. Kandō (感動) is a japanese word used by yamaha to describe their corporate mission. kandō in translation describes the sensation of excitement derived from experiencing supreme quality. in sharp contrast with that feeling i suffer from a great deal of frustration right now. My petition is an expression of that frustration.
It´s true, over the years Yamaha created and designed tons of online polls. Problem with that: Survey participants are often purely driven by the desire to make engineers change specs. They want future products to be DIFFERENT. Motif users who liked the on-board sequencer in all likelihood did not take part in Yamaha´s surveys due to the fact that they were happy customers. My guess is Yamaha achieved nothing with their surveys. When the Montage was announced I was thrilled. I wanted to purchase one immediately. But without basic funcitionality (copying chorus measures within a track, e.g.) this board has nothing to offer, workflow-wise.. well, at least to me. Being able to tweak arps would have been at least some kind of workaround to sequence.
Long story short: I know Korg Forums are somewhat unfriendly territory given the fact that we are talking about a Yamaha product, but please sign and share my petition.
https://www.change.org/p/takuya-nakata- ... orporation
I still hope they update the recorder. Thanks for your time.
There´s another bummer. The Montage comes with impressive 10,000 arps. Yamaha arps are like Karma GE´s. Now, get this...
Yamaha decided not to allow Montage users to tweak stock arps within the board and save them into user arp locations (256 built-in). You can't edit arpeggios on the Montage. There is currently no possibility to create user arps outside of the keyboard, unless you buy a Xf or Moxf for that, the Melas software can´t do arps as far as I know. Now, in the past Motif customers had zero reasons to create user arps because they rightly preferred to use the built-in pattern sequencer for that kind of Ableton-like clip production purpose. Now with the Montage BOTH pattern creation AND user arp tweaking are gone. To provide 256 user arp slots only for Motif arps is a slap in the face for those who don´t own a Xf or Moxf. Okay, so no editing of arps is possible inside Montage. But even if Yamaha would have corrected this, how would you put them into tracks when you have to record all tracks simultaneously? The whole concept seems to be flawed. Oh, and btw, there´s no difference between audio and MIDI recording in that regard. In both cases only your performance--everything you play with your fingers + pedal movement--will be stored. Gee, I´d love to put a 4-bar drum arp into track 10, measure 12, and a 4-bar guitar arp into track 3 at measure such-and-such.. My dad´s M-1 from 1989--which came with 100 pattern slots--was able do this, for God´s sake!
To afford Montage users to modify arps within the board would have been a trivialty. Yamaha decided against it. Why? Their engineers should ask themselves why they might have made these errors. Were they in a hurry because they procrastinated? Probably not. Were they stressed out and thinking about something else? I don´t get it. Kandō (感動) is a japanese word used by yamaha to describe their corporate mission. kandō in translation describes the sensation of excitement derived from experiencing supreme quality. in sharp contrast with that feeling i suffer from a great deal of frustration right now. My petition is an expression of that frustration.
It´s true, over the years Yamaha created and designed tons of online polls. Problem with that: Survey participants are often purely driven by the desire to make engineers change specs. They want future products to be DIFFERENT. Motif users who liked the on-board sequencer in all likelihood did not take part in Yamaha´s surveys due to the fact that they were happy customers. My guess is Yamaha achieved nothing with their surveys. When the Montage was announced I was thrilled. I wanted to purchase one immediately. But without basic funcitionality (copying chorus measures within a track, e.g.) this board has nothing to offer, workflow-wise.. well, at least to me. Being able to tweak arps would have been at least some kind of workaround to sequence.
Long story short: I know Korg Forums are somewhat unfriendly territory given the fact that we are talking about a Yamaha product, but please sign and share my petition.
https://www.change.org/p/takuya-nakata- ... orporation
I still hope they update the recorder. Thanks for your time.
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karmathanever
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On Yamaha's website:-
Can't imagine your petition will be of any use.Does MONTAGE has Fully-functional Sequencer?
No. MONTAGE just has the simple sequencer "Performance Recorder". It does not have edit function.
Is bundled with Cubase AI
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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Kevin Nolan
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@svene - to be able to modify arps more easily is a good point. However - this is a pain from Yamaha from decades back - even on the EX5 you had to copy preset arps into user banks before editing and it was incredibly cumbersome - and given the amazing 'pool' of 10,000 arps, this is a real pity and worth running a petition
But - as annoying as it is - and I too would love a 16 track sequencer on board - it's unfair to suggest that Yamaha have some how being remit in their execution of this instrument for leaving it out. In particular, its even the case that its performances are not straight forward "performances" in the way that an SY77 Multi or a Kronos Combi exists as a multitimbral setup - on Montage is a far more integrated setup - bypassing earlier program and performance paradigms - to offer extraordinary performance control.
It is surely not to everyones's taste - and I can see where frustration will arise because we want wha we know - but again - I suggest thinking about Yamaha trying to be true to their extraordinary legacy of "performance" synthesizers while also trying to be new and innovative - hence the Montage.
Agreed it is not going to be to everyone's taste, and in my opinion it is even a bit of a risk - but - Yamaha have been consistent from day one in flagging prominently that Montage is not a workstation and does not have a sequencer on board. It's why they provide such excellent computer / DAW I/O connectivity instead.
But - as annoying as it is - and I too would love a 16 track sequencer on board - it's unfair to suggest that Yamaha have some how being remit in their execution of this instrument for leaving it out. In particular, its even the case that its performances are not straight forward "performances" in the way that an SY77 Multi or a Kronos Combi exists as a multitimbral setup - on Montage is a far more integrated setup - bypassing earlier program and performance paradigms - to offer extraordinary performance control.
It is surely not to everyones's taste - and I can see where frustration will arise because we want wha we know - but again - I suggest thinking about Yamaha trying to be true to their extraordinary legacy of "performance" synthesizers while also trying to be new and innovative - hence the Montage.
Agreed it is not going to be to everyone's taste, and in my opinion it is even a bit of a risk - but - Yamaha have been consistent from day one in flagging prominently that Montage is not a workstation and does not have a sequencer on board. It's why they provide such excellent computer / DAW I/O connectivity instead.
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GregC
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Still, I admire anyone who starts a petition to challenge a mega-corporation to change. Its a grass roots effort.Kevin Nolan wrote:@svene - to be able to modify arps more easily is a good point. However - this is a pain from Yamaha from decades back - even on the EX5 you had to copy preset arps into user banks before editing and it was incredibly cumbersome - and given the amazing 'pool' of 10,000 arps, this is a real pity and worth running a petition
But - as annoying as it is - and I too would love a 16 track sequencer on board - it's unfair to suggest that Yamaha have some how being remit in their execution of this instrument for leaving it out. In particular, its even the case that its performances are not straight forward "performances" in the way that an SY77 Multi or a Kronos Combi exists as a multitimbral setup - on Montage is a far more integrated setup - bypassing earlier program and performance paradigms - to offer extraordinary performance control.
It is surely not to everyones's taste - and I can see where frustration will arise because we want wha we know - but again - I suggest thinking about Yamaha trying to be true to their extraordinary legacy of "performance" synthesizers while also trying to be new and innovative - hence the Montage.
Agreed it is not going to be to everyone's taste, and in my opinion it is even a bit of a risk - but - Yamaha have been consistent from day one in flagging prominently that Montage is not a workstation and does not have a sequencer on board. It's why they provide such excellent computer / DAW I/O connectivity instead.
So I do not consider svene ' wrong ' or 'mistaken '.