Korg on top of the(ir) game?

[GregC]

I'll just speak off for kronos/Workstation here.

Like any business,unless KORG sees some decent (Return of investment) from
64 Bit code-base, I don't see them re-building their current infrastructure
to port to 64 bit.
See their previous workstations from last 20 years,you'd find a lot of similarities
and functionality that makes their code-base infrastructure.

The profitability/ROI comes from code re-use in devices in the generations to come.

Thank you for that analysis, proof of concept, etc.

I think its tricky to project what the profit is/ROI of the Kronos.

I believe Kronos has achieved many intangibles- i believe Korg has the respect of Pro's, the keyboard community.

Korg, could have allowed the W/s market to flounder but chose not to.

Now Korg has 1000's ( est.) of new customers who love their Kronos .

I think getting something called " mindshare ' is hugely important. And once a company has achieved this, it should make another strong effort to be bold and repeat the grand slam home run( to pick an analogy). Every successful company needs to show growth. Business as usual is fine for 2nd tier type companies that are in a more commoditized industry/marketplace.

And I think Korg has the talent and capability. The imagined ' next product ' we are discussing should be a market force, another 5 year story, so to speak.

Not many can look out 5 years in a marketplace. I hope Korg chooses to do that again.

[Bachus]

I'll just speak off for kronos/Workstation here.

Like any business,unless KORG sees some decent (Return of investment) from
64 Bit code-base, I don't see them re-building their current infrastructure
to port to 64 bit.
See their previous workstations from last 20 years,you'd find a lot of similarities
and functionality that makes their code-base infrastructure.

The profitability/ROI comes from code re-use in devices in the generations to come.

Like GregC Mentioned, Its a specialized device, thus the development cost is usually much
higher than a generic code i.e. low level code (assembler, cpu extentions/optimizations) along with high level code (c/c++ ..)

Secondly the Market of the product itself is Specialized/Niche too (Musicians), that also adds a lot to
the ROI equation, with a limited user base you have to keep the product cost effective too, and rake in profits to
survive, let alone innovate.


Having Said that, Here's something to ponder

What if it was 64 bit Already?

1. What difference Would it have made to the Sound? likely None?.
2. Other than the Piano and HD-1 Engines, what else would it have improved for a musician? not much, unless nit-picking.

3: What if it did come with 64 Gig Ram and 1TB SSD? ($$$, let's keep costing for a bit later)

3.1: How fast does your kronos loads now? 1.something minutes right? let's be liberal and rate it at 3GB /1 minute.
so its What : 8GB / 2.67 minutes , but since we have 64GB Ram at our disposal why not use it, so here's the number : 64 GB / 21.33 minutes yay!.
but that is impractical number so lets settle down to 16 GB limit i.e 16 GB / 5.35 Mins.
That's 5 times eternity, the Current Kronos load time feels at times. (you can surely translate it to some lost customers)
wrong equation, with a modern 64 bit Linux version, and modern high speed bus speeds using the right programming, loading times are hugely improved.. as in secconds for loading 16GB instead of minutes

3.2: Sure We can improve load times with SSD to SATA6, but that would also need a new motherboard,
FSB and all hardware supporting that ($$$)
we are talking about a whole new Synth, the kronos replacement.. not about a Kronos update. when you want 16GB of ram you need a new motherboard anway.. also a new high speed processor..

3.3: Now with Faster CPU/RAM/FSB etc you'd consume more power ($$), so better power-supply,
more power means more heat.. more heat will need active cooling (noise and $$).. and on and on..
Current high end intel processors and compontents use way less power then a few years ago, most development time from intel and co went into making the processors less power hungry.. you have much more processing power at less power consumption

3.4 So even if this all were to be technically feasible (real-time efficieny), Yet Some Compromise has/had to be made to make it economically viable for Users. Electronics prices keep dropping rapidly, in a new design having a high end intel processor and memmory raises cost above the Orriginal Kronos only marginally


3.5 Now Add to that developement Cost of the 64 bit OS, and all their engines (9 in kronos) and effects.
You dont have to devlope the OS, its Linux, all you need to do is addapt the new Linux version to your needs... You dont need to reprogrammi the 32 bit engines, in a 64 bit OS 32 bit applications can make use of the new architecture


3.6: I don't know for sure if Kronos uses some DSP Acceleration Chips or not, but if they do that does add another layer of complexity.

No, all sound generation is done in the Intel CPU

This all for what? perhaps at best 14 GB of additional sample memory (volatile),
with load times that just might not be feasible for a lot of performance/live musicians and Costing Considerably Higher.

Sorry, but the numbers (ROI) just don't look good to me. Especially as opposed to having 2 kronos Workstations and doubling the polyphony.

What instead I would like to see is perhaps Korg Doing a Sound Module based Off their Sample based engine (HD1), getting it done 64bit with a big SSD
and plenty of RAM. That Could be a Killer product (that also doubles the polyphony being a separate device), would test the waters and Could
decide for their next generations for Workstations. But that's just me

So the main Question: Is Korg on top of the(ir) game?
for me: Yes, They Made the Right Compromises to bring us the Kronos as it is Today, they upgraded it (kronos2) to max they could, yet keeping costs in check.

However I'd expect to see something from them that is as good in its own when the time comes.

They sure would have some surprises up their sleeve.

There is quite some wrongs in your statement...[/b]

[amit]

64 bit computers existed 5 years back too when Kronos was done (as well as other synths) , and cheaper and better a year or so back too when it was updated to version 2 and then platinum few months back.

Right programming (as you said) could have been done in earlier too (I believe they did do right programming over the years).

So are slow loading times for example on kronos intentional on Korg's part?

There is nothing wrong in wishing / wanting anything we would like but there are a lot of factors that go about when developing a mass produced product than a cutting edge boutique product.


I too do know computers and I do know what I am talking about (though might be off context at times), but I am not here to argue about all that or anything.

Yes, Tech has been improving rapidly, and cpu's getting cooler,faster etc but perhaps check for some TDP specs and their application in the context
of a performance synthesizer/workstation and audio (If you have worked with DSP and Audio , you'd be aware of limitations etc anyway (be it linux or any other).

Linux based synths have existed for quite some time too : Hartmann Neuron (a great ML concept, but way ahead of its time and costly at its time)

Yes, costs also keep coming down (but maybe not for Korg), as they could have offered all the OASYS hardware options on the new Kronos at the same price. Costs getting down is a constant thing, what you put in a synth today, will be outdated too by next year and so on,nothing new here)

I thought I did mention that I Speak from Kronos context here.
please do enlighten where would a 64 bit system make for a better synthesizer, except for more sample memory / sampler module?

Sorry, that you had to find so many wrongs, but I Stand by What I said, but that's just me being me

[GregC]

1)64 bit computers existed 5 years back too when Kronos was done (as well as other synths) , and cheaper and better a year or so back too when it was updated to version 2 and then platinum few months back.

Right programming (as you said) could have been done in earlier too (I believe they did do right programming over the years).

)[/b]
[/color]

1) you know much more about technology than I ever will. But I wanted to clarify the numbered sentence in your post.

I can see why Korg kept the current Kronos family intact with the " 2" and the Platinum. It was a low cost move , a nice cosmetic change, plus a subtle improvement on the internals.

I suppose Korg could have been much more 'revolutionary' ( is that what you suggested?) vs evolutionary but it seems the Kronos family had plenty of model room to grow , in gradual steps.

I am very pleased that Korg has supported us original Kronos owners from 5 yrs ago. My Kronos sounds the same as the '2' and the platinum.

[amit]

Totally agree there.

for a different perspective, for all we know, Korg could be building and testing the monster machine all this time (i.e over last few years with all the advancements in tech etc).

All we (users) have are speculations and assumptions based on past and present. Hope like their past record they make synths not just for today but tomorrow and years to come.

1)64 bit computers existed 5 years back too when Kronos was done (as well as other synths) , and cheaper and better a year or so back too when it was updated to version 2 and then platinum few months back.

Right programming (as you said) could have been done in earlier too (I believe they did do right programming over the years).

)[/b]
[/color]

1) you know much more about technology than I ever will. But I wanted to clarify the numbered sentence in your post.

I can see why Korg kept the current Kronos family intact with the " 2" and the Platinum. It was a low cost move , a nice cosmetic change, plus a subtle improvement on the internals.

I suppose Korg could have been much more 'revolutionary' ( is that what you suggested?) vs evolutionary but it seems the Kronos family had plenty of model room to grow , in gradual steps.

I am very pleased that Korg has supported us original Kronos owners from 5 yrs ago. My Kronos sounds the same as the '2' and the platinum.

[GregC]

Totally agree there.

for a different perspective, for all we know, Korg could be building and testing the monster machine all this time (i.e over last few years with all the advancements in tech etc).

All we (users) have are speculations and assumptions based on past and present. Hope like their past record they make synths not just for today but tomorrow and years to come.

m.

Also agreed. I think its highly likely that it takes 2 yrs of planning + prototype to
launch a new product. I worked for Sony 10 yrs and other manufacturers. They are all highly process/measure oriented. I would like to think there is a Project Plan in place and they are very close. again, this is my wishful thinking that its close.

[kfwa]

While I have had my Kronos Platinum for two weeks and am currently getting familiar with only the basics, my perspective hopefully adds to the spectrum of user needs that developers of Korg workstations would consider.

As globalization with social connectivity thanks to amazing tech advancements continues I think fusion music drawing on diff regions' traditions will only increase.

As a single hobbyist musician I was attracted to K2 chiefly due to its ability to record everything including ext instruments (guitars that I dabble in) in it plus its very realistic pianos and high reputation for other realistic programs.

I am impressed immensely with so much yet very disappointed on exclusion of many instruments played in Pakistan, India, Iran, Bangladesh and adjoining countries. Yes there are some Sitars Tanpuras and odd Tabla but not of good quality. Would have loved to have some classical Tabla patterns in percussion assortment. Instruments' sounds that I hope Korg will include or perhaps have an external library of in future could be Sarangi, Santur, Rabab, Tablas (all basic beats patterns in high quality sampling) and Sitars (better samples and more played variations as there are for guitars).

I am not a professional and do not know much about music tech. For the present, I will appreciate your recommendations (do understand though there are not many here who may know about these instruments) on getting the sounds that I have mentioned.

[GregC]

I am impressed immensely with so much yet very disappointed on exclusion of many instruments played in Pakistan, India, Iran, Bangladesh and adjoining countries. Yes there are some Sitars Tanpuras and odd Tabla but not of good quality. Would have loved to have some classical Tabla patterns in percussion assortment. Instruments' sounds that I hope Korg will include or perhaps have an external library of in future could be Sarangi, Santur, Rabab, Tablas (all basic beats patterns in high quality sampling) and Sitars (better samples and more played variations as there are for guitars).

.

go to Korg shops and check out the 3rd party samples. I think what you are looking for is covered by 1 of the 3rd party developers

[amit]

There is one library called world something from bolder sounds that addresses that.
I have also converted some of my collections from over the years to kronos format.

Mainly, north Indian as that is my region.
Have also converted some loop libraries (rex/was)
into time sliced kronos kits and patterns.
There are also a ton of samples included with kronos that are unused in default factory banks, but you could easily build your ethnic patches from.

Sorry, but I cannot share them as those are commercial libraries with copyright.

However you can google for some ethnic sound fonts, multi samples (public domain) etc , download and convert to kronos.

[kfwa]

Thank you Greg C and Amit.

Amit,

Your very helpful response gives me hope. Right now I do not understand some of the tech terms that you use and the how part. It is unfair for me to have you explain without studying the manual first. But it is good to know what I am looking for would be possible.

Count on me to pester you in future though!