Korg Kronos LS?

[Joe Gerardi]

Why would I carry two keyboards if I can do it all on one?

Because you can't. You simply cannot play all the parts of the various music on one board. tell me how you would play ELP's "Pirates" when the first run is 5 octaves long and there's a pulsing left hand, and in the middle of that there's orchestrations. Same for Karn Evil 9 ("Welcome Back My Friends") when there's synth lead, synth bass, and 2 handed Hammond work.

You might be able to play an approximation, but you ain't playing all the parts. Tony Banks himself doesn't like a lot of keyboards, and the bare minimum HE can get away with is 3, and that includes an OASYS. I'd LOVE to see someone do the entire Cage Medley or "And You and I" by Yes on one board.

Unless you're playing along with a sequencer doing some of the parts.: then it's possible, but that's not playing then.

..Joe

[vEddY]

Because you can't. You simply cannot play all the parts of the various music on one board. tell me how you would play ELP's "Pirates" when the first run is 5 octaves long and there's a pulsing left hand, and in the middle of that there's orchestrations. Same for Karn Evil 9 ("Welcome Back My Friends") when there's synth lead, synth bass, and 2 handed Hammond work.

You might be able to play an approximation, but you ain't playing all the parts. Tony Banks himself doesn't like a lot of keyboards, and the bare minimum HE can get away with is 3, and that includes an OASYS. I'd LOVE to see someone do the entire Cage Medley or "And You and I" by Yes on one board.

Unless you're playing along with a sequencer doing some of the parts.: then it's possible, but that's not playing then.

..Joe

Dude, you're mixing up two things, by your own admission. You're mixing the fact that we as humans have two hands and therefore can't do some things (and you're absolutely right in that), with a broad generalization that that has anything to do with the fact that you need to have two keyboards for some reason. You don't. You can program all of those sounds in one/two combi's on the OASYS. Or Kronos combi/setlist, whatever.

BTW, you can do everything from your list with one board if you program it hard enough. All of those sequences you're talking about can be played by custom Karma configuration (for which you need Karma software), and/or RPRR, depending on what you're trying to achieve, plus pads. Yes, it would be complicated, and as you said, that's not the same as playing everything live (every single note). But that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you need 2+ boards, and it has everything to do with the fact that we're not octopuses That was my point. OK?

And if something's impossible to play with two hands and the tools that I just mentioned, then - by all means - I'd use backing tracks, as every single major act does in the past 20 years

[JPROBERTLA]

Jumping in late on this, but: This discussion is exactly one of the reasons why a keyboard like the Kronos was built. While there are physical limitations to consider (like 2 hands) that the only limitation. Everything else can be done if enough prep work is done. Someone mentioned that most everyone uses backing tracks. I have not seen a concert that doesn't use them in so long I can't remember when it was. There is no negative stigma or penalty for using backing tracks (sequences or karma) to play a part that otherwise would require another keyboard player. Many concerts I have attended in the last 10 years used additional guitar tracks recorded and synced with the sequencer. There is nothing wrong with using every technology available to sound as good as possible. There is no penalty for multiple takes and/or tracks during recording, so why would be live performances be any different?

[Joe Gerardi]

BTW, you can do everything from your list with one board if you program it hard enough. All of those sequences you're talking about can be played by custom Karma configuration (for which you need Karma software), )

Ah. okay. You're not playing it, you're letting the keyboard play it for you. That explains a lot.

See, I'm talking about musicianship, and the ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you. I dicked around with Karma, then I turned it off: I haven't used it in 5 years because I HAVE no use for it- I used to do things like "Tarkus" and "Awaken" live: why would I use Karma? Suppose the drummer wants to groove at a slightly slower/faster tempo? Suppose the bass player drops a beat and everyone has to adjust? How do you do that when Karma or a sequencer is playing? It's called "playing music," not playing prerecorded music. Because otherwise, why not record the vocals and lip-sync? Why not just sequence everything, SMPTE up recorded vocals, and let the sound man do everything from the desk while audience stares at a stage with just a Kronos on it?

This goes back to my one-finger playing comment.

Sorry, and this is not directed at you, but letting the synth do it is NOT playing: it's keyboard karaoke as far as I'm concerned.

..Joe

[vEddY]

Ah. okay. You're not playing it, you're letting the keyboard play it for you. That explains a lot.
See, I'm talking about musicianship, and the ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you. I dicked around with Karma, then I turned it off: I haven't used it in 5 years because I HAVE no use for it- I used to do things like "Tarkus" and "Awaken" live: why would I use Karma? Suppose the drummer wants to groove at a slightly slower/faster tempo? Suppose the bass player drops a beat and everyone has to adjust? How do you do that when Karma or a sequencer is playing? It's called "playing music," not playing prerecorded music. Because otherwise, why not record the vocals and lip-sync? Why not just sequence everything, SMPTE up recorded vocals, and let the sound man do everything from the desk while audience stares at a stage with just a Kronos on it?

This goes back to my one-finger playing comment.

Sorry, and this is not directed at you, but letting the synth do it is NOT playing: it's keyboard karaoke as far as I'm concerned.

..Joe

Labelling someone as "something" is not a way to discuss things. This is not Gearslutz, and these discussions are not about "musical", "moral", or any other "higher ground". This is Korg Forums, mate. Live with it. It's perfectly normal that someone disagrees with your view of things. That doesn't necessarily mean he or she should be labelled as something. You're being childish, ya know?

I play everything that's humanly possible to play with every cover song that I do. For everything else, if it's something that's important in the context of a song, I use backing tracks. Also, I play with musicians who are perfectly able to "dance around the metronome a bit", therefor making music "alive". This is something that every major act does. I'm not a major act, but I can certainly learn from all of them. And it's about serving the song, not serving yourself. Specifically, serving music so that music is pleasant for musicians to play, and (especially) singer to sing. And every single band member in every band that I played in - if we played covers - was extremely sensitive to keyboard sounds, lines, notes, etc. - much more then guitar lines, drum embellishments, etc. That's why backing tracks are often used for synths. Also, for backing vocals, but I don't do that. That's why you have backup singers. If you can't understand that, that's your business.

Just my 2c.

[DennyC]

BTW, you can do everything from your list with one board if you program it hard enough. All of those sequences you're talking about can be played by custom Karma configuration (for which you need Karma software), )

Ah. okay. You're not playing it, you're letting the keyboard play it for you. That explains a lot.

See, I'm talking about musicianship, and the ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you. I dicked around with Karma, then I turned it off: I haven't used it in 5 years because I HAVE no use for it- I used to do things like "Tarkus" and "Awaken" live: why would I use Karma? Suppose the drummer wants to groove at a slightly slower/faster tempo? Suppose the bass player drops a beat and everyone has to adjust? How do you do that when Karma or a sequencer is playing? It's called "playing music," not playing prerecorded music. Because otherwise, why not record the vocals and lip-sync? Why not just sequence everything, SMPTE up recorded vocals, and let the sound man do everything from the desk while audience stares at a stage with just a Kronos on it?

This goes back to my one-finger playing comment.

Sorry, and this is not directed at you, but letting the synth do it is NOT playing: it's keyboard karaoke as far as I'm concerned.

..Joe

It is a little different to me....on just how I evaluate things. Irving Berlin wrote a lot of great songs. He used the one finger method and was very successful at it. Also, I believe he might have used a Steinway; not exactly the most inexpensive instrument in his day.

So to produce such great tunes, was it solely his brainpower for inspiration or maybe the tone of the Steinway helping out, or possibly a combination of both? To me, determining someone's value as a musician is more than dexterity or any one factor. Also if someone can play only in a very limited fashion(some say like me), I wouldn't resent that person if they had a variety of expensive keyboards like Kronos. If that gives that person inspiration and enjoyment then their music is a success.

[Devnor]

Jordan Rudess can play all that ELP stuff with one Kronos. Of course, he's the keyboard wizard and the rest of us are not.

[dfahrner]

With a second keyboard I don't have to think about where a split point is...

df

[jorgemncardoso]

Ah. okay. You're not playing it, you're letting the keyboard play it for you. That explains a lot.
See, I'm talking about musicianship, and the ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you. I dicked around with Karma, then I turned it off: I haven't used it in 5 years because I HAVE no use for it- I used to do things like "Tarkus" and "Awaken" live: why would I use Karma? Suppose the drummer wants to groove at a slightly slower/faster tempo? Suppose the bass player drops a beat and everyone has to adjust? How do you do that when Karma or a sequencer is playing? It's called "playing music," not playing prerecorded music. Because otherwise, why not record the vocals and lip-sync? Why not just sequence everything, SMPTE up recorded vocals, and let the sound man do everything from the desk while audience stares at a stage with just a Kronos on it?

This goes back to my one-finger playing comment.

Sorry, and this is not directed at you, but letting the synth do it is NOT playing: it's keyboard karaoke as far as I'm concerned.

..Joe

Labelling someone as "something" is not a way to discuss things. This is not Gearslutz, and these discussions are not about "musical", "moral", or any other "higher ground". This is Korg Forums, mate. Live with it. It's perfectly normal that someone disagrees with your view of things. That doesn't necessarily mean he or she should be labelled as something. You're being childish, ya know?

I play everything that's humanly possible to play with every cover song that I do. For everything else, if it's something that's important in the context of a song, I use backing tracks. Also, I play with musicians who are perfectly able to "dance around the metronome a bit", therefor making music "alive". This is something that every major act does. I'm not a major act, but I can certainly learn from all of them. And it's about serving the song, not serving yourself. Specifically, serving music so that music is pleasant for musicians to play, and (especially) singer to sing. And every single band member in every band that I played in - if we played covers - was extremely sensitive to keyboard sounds, lines, notes, etc. - much more then guitar lines, drum embellishments, etc. That's why backing tracks are often used for synths. Also, for backing vocals, but I don't do that. That's why you have backup singers. If you can't understand that, that's your business.

Just my 2c.

OOOkkkkkk..... A lot has happened since i made my two kbd's minimum statement...

To start off, i really have to comment on vEddY's post above:
While i firmly disagree with you, i respect your point of view on playing and using the "technology" available the way you do. What i do not understand at all is your harsh comment's to Joe Gerardi's post. In what way did Joe labeled "someone as "something""??? I've read his post countless times and i don't see it anywhere. The only one i see here having a "childish" attitude is You with your hotheaded and hasty response.
Joe said, and i quote: "I'm talking about musicianship, and the ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you."
As far as i'm aware the Kronos is not a person for one to refer to it as "someone" now is it?? He was referring to the machine not the person who programmed the machine.

You keep referring to "all major acts use a lot of sequences and BT's", but... would you care to elaborate as to what major act's...? Names...?
See, sometimes what some people call a "major act" i would probably not even use it as elevator music. The "major act" concept by itself is meaningless to me, maybe is some one i respect and admire or maybe is someone that is totally null to me, no matter how big and trendy and famous it is...
There are a lot of "major act's" today lip-syncing on concert's, in total disrespect of fans who actually bought a ticked to see them sing, not so much to see a "show" but to listen to "music", to see someone they admire and respect "perform" not "pretend to perform", for that they might as well stayed at home and put on the CD
I wouldn't even use the CD's of about 80% of mainstream's so called "major act's" of today to play frisbee with....

To quote something Joe Walsh (Eagles) once said: "Success" doesn't necessarily mean "Validity".

You've definitely missed Joe's point about "musicianship" and his meaning of "live performed music".

I'm all for letting technology being used to help the performance, but where do one ultimately draws the line on what's helpful (and tasteful) to enhance the performance and what's cheating or taking shortcut's?
Nothing bores me more than a band who, when playing live, sound's exactly like the CD (recorded version), note per note, sound per sound... Might as well stay home, put the CD on and save me the money...

Regarding the topic of the "one kbd on stage does it all", i personally need at least two kbd's because:

1- i don't split the kbd (when i'm using split's at all) any more than in half as i really can't be bothered with having to remember where the 20 plus split point's are.
2- because i'm more concern with spending time practicing and rehearsing all my part's in real time, over and over again till i get it perfect rather than spending that time thinking and programming ways to having the kdb's sequencer/engine do those part's for me. It's not as perfect as the machine...? don't care, that's why it's called live, played by musician's not machines.
3- Prefer to physically play on two different keyboard rather than having to streach from on end of an '88 to another remembering multiple split point's and a multitude of controller assignment's.
4- I really can't stand "one kbd on stage" look, i would feel like a wedding band / local village party keyboardist/ one finger arranger (with all due respect to those guys, but not my thing...). I like to have a kbd rig in front of me.....

OH... and one final thing just for the record, i do not work in or for the music industry for a living, so all my comment's here are just about love of music/playing music and musicianship, not business or fame.

[jorgemncardoso]

Jordan Rudess can play all that ELP stuff with one Kronos. Of course, he's the keyboard wizard and the rest of us are not.

Yes he can!! And he is playing is as academically perfect and flawless as it is robotic/mechanical and soulless...
He can also use like 300 different combis to play just one DT song... Wow how great is that...
Gimmie a Tony Banks with 6 kbd's on stage any day of the week...

[Joe Gerardi]

vEddy:
I see you're not in the US or the UK, so I'll put your misunderstanding of English down to an ESL and let it go at that.

No, Mr. Rudess CAN'T play all that ELP stuff- he can play "Tarkus." Aside from its technical difficulties, "Tarkus" is fairly easy in terms of Hammond/Synth, except the Perc on his version was all wrong- there's no percussion on the right hand, it's all on the left for "Eruption," and he was crossing over into the split point in many places because of the music's demands. As I said, one CAN'T play "Pirates" - with all the orchestrations, synth sounds and lead sounds - on one keyboard, because the long runs won't give a crap how many splits you have: 88 keys ain't enough.

..Joe

[vEddY]

While i firmly disagree with you, i respect your point of view on playing and using the "technology" available the way you do. What i do not understand at all is your harsh comment's to Joe Gerardi's post. In what way did Joe labeled "someone as "something""??? I've read his post countless times and i don't see it anywhere. The only one i see here having a "childish" attitude is You with your hotheaded and hasty response. Joe said, and i quote: "I'm talking about musicianship, and the ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you."
As far as i'm aware the Kronos is not a person for one to refer to it as "someone" now is it?? He was referring to the machine not the person who programmed the machine.

I wasn't harsh at all. I offered a counterpoint - which is that using two keyboards isn't (always, almost ever) necessary, and that there are people out there (lot of them) with one keyboard only. And that it's not necessary on the songs that Joe was referring to. I do it that way mostly, but not exclusively. But for situations when I don't have enough keys on my 88-key Kronos or OASYS, I could use octave shifts, sampling, pads, ... loads of things to choose from.

First, you can think what you want, and you need to accept that other people don't have to agree with you. I have no problem with your or Joe's point of view. My gripe with this discussion is a matter of principle, not a particular situation, a principle by which "you have to have two keyboards or more", which you don't, as there are other ways of doing things even if 88 keys are not enough. And my general idea was to tell you that there are people out there who use only one keyboard, and make everything (needed) hapen.

Second, I do believe you misunderstood what I said about "labeling". I wasn't talking about Kronos, and that much should be obvious. It's a piece of plastic and metal with some software that enables you to create/play music. I was talking about the "big words" like "musicianship" being used in the same sentence as "ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you". That's such a narrow-minded view in today's day and age, man. Why should something that you record and use as a backing track be any less valuable then the things you're playing live, if it helps the song and enhances the experience for people listening to it?

You have to be aware that it's second to impossible to make everything sound live as it does in the studio. It's usually something that requires such an enormous investment into the "infrastructure" (more musicians, PA, mixer, monitor groups, computers, crew, a whole host of stuff) that it's almost never financially viable to think about that. When you're using backing tracks, it's usually as close as it can be.

Trust me, I was firmly in "your corner" in the past - I wanted to play every single note, voice, noise - all by myself. Later I realized that it's not about me wanting to do something - it's about a band being able to pull off something consistently, every single time, while offering music as a background so that the vocalists (as a layer on top of what you're playing) can feel comfortable delivering "their part". It's about a song in general, not about some specific "musician" doing something.

You keep referring to "all major acts use a lot of sequences and BT's", but... would you care to elaborate as to what major act's...? Names...?
See, sometimes what some people call a "major act" i would probably not even use it as elevator music. The "major act" concept by itself is meaningless to me, maybe is some one i respect and admire or maybe is someone that is totally null to me, no matter how big and trendy and famous it is...
There are a lot of "major act's" today lip-syncing on concert's, in total disrespect of fans who actually bought a ticked to see them sing, not so much to see a "show" but to listen to "music", to see someone they admire and respect "perform" not "pretend to perform", for that they might as well stayed at home and put on the CD
I wouldn't even use the CD's of about 80% of mainstream's so called "major act's" of today to playfrisbee with....

Everyone from Depeche mode, Mariah Carey, U2, ZZ top, ACDC, Muse, Coldplay, Rolling Stones, Rush, Tesseract, to Van Halen, Sting, .... Even the "elevator music" people like Britney Spears, Jay-Z, Justin Timberlake, ... if you listen to any single Queen concert where Bohemian Rhapsody is being played, they always used CD track in the middle part... Do I need to grow the list or is that enough?

Also, there's a difference between playback/lipsync and using backing tracks to "augment" music. Personally, of course I'd hate to do the first one or to listen to it. But I'm all for the second one if it enhances the sound, which is what I'm personally using them (backing tracks) for, exclusively.

You've definitely missed Joe's point about "musicianship" and his meaning of "live performed music". I'm all for letting technology being used to help the performance, but where do one ultimately draws the line on what's helpful (and tasteful) to enhance the performance and what's cheating or taking shortcut's?
Nothing bores me more than a band who, when playing live, sound's exactly like the CD (recorded version), note per note, sound per sound... Might as well stay home, put the CD on and save me the money...

I didn't miss a thing, man. Live performed music and self-pre-recorded music are the part of the process that shouldn't be valued on this sort of scale. And I believe that the line needs to be drawn at the "augment" level. If it brings something to the experience of your listeners, then what's the problem?

Regarding the topic of the "one kbd on stage does it all", i personally need at least two kbd's because:
1- i don't split the kbd (when i'm using split's at all) any more than in half as i really can't be bothered with having to remember where the 20 plus split point's are.
2- because i'm more concern with spending time practicing and rehearsing all my part's in real time, over and over again till i get it perfect rather than spending that time thinking and programming ways to having the kdb's sequencer/engine do those part's for me. It's not as perfect as the machine...? don't care, that's why it's called live, played by musician's not machines.
3- Prefer to physically play on two different keyboard rather than having to streach from on end of an '88 to another remembering multiple split point's and a multitude of controller assignment's.
4- I really can't stand "one kbd on stage" look, i would feel like a wedding band / local village party keyboardist/ one finger arranger (with all due respect to those guys, but not my thing...). I like to have a kbd rig in front of me.....

.... and that's perfectly fine with me. Again, the reason why I even posted something in this thread was to try to tell people that generalization about anything in music (and almost everything in life) is usually the wrong thing to do.

Personally, I've been known to carry around a rack full of equipment (Integra 7, TR-Rack, computer, iPad, loads of stuff), on top of Kronos or OASYS as a master keyboard. I could do without that, no problem, but I prefer some sounds off those things in my rack (hint:augment, it's not something that's mandatory). My band members always refer to my setup as "The mobile weather station". On the other hand, I prefer to do everything on one keyboard if possible - and everything I tried so far has been possible on either one of those keyboards. So, again, if I can do it with one, why do I need a second keyboard? And I don't use sequencing live, ever. Sometimes I use Karma, but for "special effects". The same with RPRR.

OH... and one final thing just for the record, i do not work in or for the music industry for a living, so all my comment's here are just about love of music/playing music and musicianship, not business or fame.

I used to work in the MI, but it's been quite awhile. And in the past 3-4 years, I'm doing a lot of studio work (recording), and quite a lot of live shows. And both of these things I don't do for money, just for the enjoyment - both mine and audiences'. Money is just a (minor) side-effect of doing it.

[Scott]

Jordan Rudess can play all that ELP stuff with one Kronos.

Not in the videos I've seen. I mean, not all "live" as Joe is talking about. JR is playing to a sequence with some of the parts "pre-recorded."

Some stuff simply cannot be played "live" on a single keyboard.

One issue is having enough real estate, like if you need a top-to-bottom right hand keyboard run to happen over a left hand part that is playing something in the middle.

Another issue is time. You can't always spare the time to play a part with your right hand, go up to change a patch for a little flourish, play the bit, then go back to the screen to change the sound back to the first sound (and again, your other hand may be too busy to spare for that as well).

Then there is the matter of the different actions. If you need to play a piano part that requires a lot of subtle dynamic expression, you're going to want to play that on a hammer action. Then if you want to do some organ-specific techniques, a hammer action can be a real impediment.

Not all music has these complications. Lots of people can manage fine on one board, because the demands of the music (and/or willingness to let the board "play" parts for you) permit it. But that doesn't cover every player.

And to the extent that one can trigger things from keys and do other automations to avoid having to play parts that you don't have the keys available to play, for me, that kind of defeats the purpose. I want it to be about the "performance" and playing the instruments, rather than operating other technology to get around not having the right instruments.

[vEddY]

One issue is having enough real estate, like if you need a top-to-bottom right hand keyboard run to happen over a left hand part that is playing something in the middle.

Another issue is time. You can't always spare the time to play a part with your right hand, go up to change a patch for a little flourish, play the bit, then go back to the screen to change the sound back to the first sound (and again, your other hand may be too busy to spare for that as well).

Just to remind ya..... there are splits and velocity-based layers that can be used in a very efficient way so... real-estate is not a problem.

In terms of time... sounds can be switched by a pedal or a controller, you don't have to change your sounds by using your hand. That's one of the reasons why I often sit while I play - I usually have four synth-related pedals (sustain, "js+y" pedal for hammond, switch-pedal for sounds, and volume pedal), and a pedalboard for guitar (Kemper plus two expression pedals). Recently, I've been experimenting with Source Audio Reflex so that I can have one expression pedal that controls expression for both Kemper and Kronos... it's not working the way it should, but hey - you learn something every day

Then there is the matter of the different actions. If you need to play a piano part that requires a lot of subtle dynamic expression, you're going to want to play that on a hammer action. Then if you want to do some organ-specific techniques, a hammer action can be a real impediment.

Not all music has these complications. Lots of people can manage fine on one board, because the demands of the music (and/or willingness to let the board "play" parts for you) permit it. But that doesn't cover every player.

And to the extent that one can trigger things from keys and do other automations to avoid having to play parts that you don't have the keys available to play, for me, that kind of defeats the purpose. I want it to be about the "performance" and playing the instruments, rather than operating other technology to get around not having the right instruments.

No argue from me there, man. Personally, as a trained classical pianist, I prefer the hammer action for everything (leads and hammond included). That being said, using some nanoPADs (and/or nanoKEY 2's) can always enable you to do more.

[Scott]

Just to remind ya..... there are splits and velocity-based layers that can be used in a very efficient way so... real-estate is not a problem.

I've used velocity layers for different sounds. I try to avoid it. Whoops, I played that note too hard or too softly, I got the wrong sound...

But regardless, if your left hand is playing something, and your right hand needs to cross it (i.e. the ranges of the two parts combined extend beyond the number of keys you have), splits and velocity layers won't solve that problem. So real estate can still be a problem.

In terms of time... sounds can be switched by a pedal or a controller, you don't have to change your sounds by using your hand. That's one of the reasons why I often sit while I play.

Yes, pedals can help with patch switching, if you're willing to set up all the patches in order, for every song you might do where you need it... and it can still be problematic if you play while standing, as you indicate. Especially if you're also operating sustain and expression pedals.