Karma and Internal sequencer

[MrSteveVee]

Hi Chaps,

I'm trying to understand the workings of Karma and the internal sequencer and I have a problem that I cannot fathom out

I took a standard patch (U-D055 Classic Choir) and changed the Karma GE engine to 039 Orch.String Arp 1, then adjusted some of the Karma sliders until it produced a pleasing Staccato type sound, changed the drum track and saved this as a new program.

I then created a combi, and copied the Program into the Combi along with effects used and drum track.

This played fine. So using the Enter/Record I went into song mode of the sequencer and recorded a Bar or two.

Now this is the part I don't understand. When I play back the recording, it will only play back correctly if the Karma button is pressed first. If the button is not pressed the recording loses the Staccato effect and just gives variations of the Karma as full note by the sounds

I have been searching/reading for answers and tried setting the timbre to BTH instead of INT and switched on the Global Enable Karma module to midi out but nothing seems to make a difference.

My understanding was that you could record the notes in the sequencer exactly as there are being played even the generated ones as the internal sequencer is treated the same as a DAW. Am I missing a switch somewhere or is my understanding incorrect?

Thanks all

Steve

[enigmahack]

I didn't get this either until Stephen Kay helped out:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... ight=karma

Check the very bottom post.

[kronoSphere]

I have done it : I have recorded the "karma" track with the KARMA BUTTON ON and then I have verified in the note event edit : All the notes were recorded. So when I play this track (with the Karma button OFF) it plays exactly the tracks with its karma notes. Please verify this

[MrSteveVee]

Hmm tried that thanks Enigma, it didn't seem to work, in fact as far as I can tell I've tried all the suggestions in the post as well. I also had a look as per K.Sphere suggestion, it looks like they are notes there (as in lots of notes for the first measure) but not sounding. So so strange.

To compound the problem, I saved the song when after the first recording and (from memory) had not changed anything. However when I re-load the song, Karma will not re-trigger at all now if I attempt to record again! yet if I create a new song with the original Combi the Karma triggers ok.

Aghh! so frustrating. The song is totally immaterial as its purely a test, I just cant get my head around what's happening asp. now that a second problem (saved song) seems to behave differently to a created one. There is an explanation here somewhere but more digging required.

[MrSteveVee]

PS I understand your pain Enigma (from your other posts) Ahh my neck! hurts so much leaning over! End up resting head on the keys! - haha

Steve

[MrSteveVee]

Ok ignore the second problem. I had changed a parameter before I saved so its back to the first problem.

I'm currently exploring the theory that it is to do with the Karma midi routing but I've got to drop it for a bit as wanted elsewhere. Gotta do the chores before the wife gets in...Aghh i'm in trouble again!

Steve

[MrSteveVee]

Just had to have another look (gonna get murdered by wife now!) the reason I couldn't do a 2nd recording of the Karma is that the Karma Input had to be set to Tch, so I am back to my original problem after a massive diversion! Why do I need to have the Karma button pressed to hear the recording play back properly . Hmm!

[19naia]

Excerpt from Page 597 of parameter guide.
It says something about using menu option "Copy Karma Module" when wanting to record Karma phrases.
I recorded Karma phrases before and played them back without Karma button being on.
Do an "auto song setup" for a Karmafied Combi and see if that works and look for any setting differences if it works.
I think i could be of more help if i was not away from Kronos. It will be a long while, maybe even 5 more months before i get back to Kronos.

Sequencer Karma section begins on page 597 of the parameter guide and i coppied and pasted parts of page 597 for you here.


"When playing back a song or pattern, you can use KARMA in real-time on your keyboard playing, or in conjunction with real-time performance using the RPPR function
The data from the internal sequencer is not input to the KARMA Modules. Note data from the internal sequencer cannot be used as triggers to cause KARMA to generate phrases.
The state of the KARMA ON/OFF switch, KARMA SLIDERS 1–8, KARMA SWITCHES 1–8, LATCH and SCENES 1–8 switches, and the note settings/velocity of the Pad 1–8 can be saved independently for each song.
By using the page menu command “Copy KARMA Module,” you can easily copy the KARMA Module settings of a program or combination. Use this when you wish to use Sequencer mode to record the KARMA phrase or pattern of Program mode.
By using the page menu command “Copy From Combi,” you can copy the entire settings of a combination, and real- time record a performance that uses KARMA (Multi REC).
By using the function (see “Tip: Auto Song Setup” on
page 516) you can automatically transfer the settings of a program or combination into a song, and then begin recording immediately simply by pressing the START/STOP switch. If you come up with an inspired phrase or song idea while using KARMA in Program or Combi Mode, you can immediately convert your inspiration into a song. The function seamlessly takes you from playing a program or combination into creating a song."

[19naia]

Seems Karma module needs input channel and output channel to be the same, regardless of weather it is Tch or 1-16. GE will take input from the track and then has to output to the track for recording. In combi it is different because there is no specific recording track that need the output(my best guess at the reason for difference between combi and song Midi I/O setup).
The part about "Copy Karma Module" is about copying over Karma and all of its settings. You originally metioned doing a copy from program with effects and drum track, but no mention of "copy karma module".

For some reason the parameter guide says to use this function when you want to record Karma phrases to track and it explains there that the command acts to bring in all the settings associated with Karma GE.
If you were missing that step, it makes sense that your play back would be missing the staccato setting you adjusted into the program Karma before recording. And so it would have to rely on Combi mode way of using Karma and that is only with Karma on.
Sequencer has that extra step of getting Karma to record into a track where combi just goes straight out to where it will be heard.
There are even more extra steps to get it all to record into external sequencers where Sysex is involved.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/52346 ... 239#manual

I read a bit through this link above.
You may want to check a few pages back and a few pages forward for a better sense of what is potentially involved in Getting Karma phrases to record and play back in external sequencers or internal sequencer.

Auto song setup may just be the quick shortcut.
Based on what i read it seems to imply it also sets Karma up to record, in a way that it plays back as sequencer midi data without need for karma running. I don't have kronos with me to test this but it is what i would test first if i had kronos with me now.

[MrSteveVee]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the helpful replies, I've been reading through them and following suggestions but not got very far until tonight when I made a slight breakthrough. BTW I have tried a standard Combi recording of Karma and it works just fine, this problem I have is only for a program that I created so its something I have done for sure, its finding out what that's the puzzle.

On close listening with my ancient ears, the notes playing back in the sequencer without Karma switched on are the correct notes but they are playing as sort of full notes rather than the Staccato sounds that I recorded. and as stated, when I switch the Karma button on, they then play fine.

I checked the IFX FX etc. and could not find anything that affected the sounds, so after exhausting everything I could think of in the sequencer, I went back to my created program to see if I could replicate the odd effect.

Now in program mode under the Karma tab-> Midi Filter cc Offset Receive Midi Filter, if i uncheck the "other CC" tab then I get the same sounds as per the recorded Karma in the sequencer played back with the Karma switched Off.

So switching the Karma switch On when playing back the recorded Karma sequence is affecting the "other cc" I assume. I have checked the Midi Filter cc Offset tab in the sequencer and it is checked on for both receive and transmit so its not that.

Any clues chaps?

thanks

Steve

[19naia]

I still have a hard time starting off with an initialized program with initialized Karma.
I usually take a preexisting program and copy it to a new slot and then begin to change samples, settings, Karma GE & settings and so on.

So many settings in Karma that i am not used to, that starting from an emty slate gets me a lot of difficulty. I still cannot get an initialized program to set "release" for the sample. I have to copy a program where that is already done and then i can adjust the already set "release".
I won't be surprised if the "copy Karma module" action for sequencer, is there for just the sort of hangups i mentioned about setting release in an initialized program.
I doubt i can offer much help but there is always parameter guide section for Karma.

[MrSteveVee]

Here is a way to repeat the problem using a standard program pre-set (Kronos-2)

In program mode select U-D055 Classic Choir
Play with Karma on to listen to the Karma, all is fine.
Press Enter->Record to Auto set up to record
Record a bar with Karma switched on
Play back recorded sequence first with Karma Switched ON, Then Karma Switched Off
Hear the difference?
Now go back to the Program
Play with Karma, Sounds OK
Now go to the Karma tab-> Midi Filter cc Offset Receive Midi Filter and Uncheck the "other CC"
Play with Karma again and now it sounds how the sequencer does with Karma switched Off

So it has something to do with Karma switch and the "Other cc" somehow/where??

Any clues?

Appreciate if anyone could verify this is the same for you

Thanks

Steve

[ksi]

I have tried this, and I can confirm it

You have been quite close to the answer, actually

The difference comes from the CC Offsets, that are used by KARMA

If you go to the progam U-D055 Classic Choir and open the KARMA MIDI Filter/CC Offsets tab, you'll see that KARMA sets three CC offsets, which in this case relate to attack, sustain and decay. When recording in the way you describe, these offsets are not recorded - don't ask me why, I don't know.

But once recorded in the sequencer you can include these CCs manually onto the recorded track at the beginning of the first bar using MIDI Event Edit. Then you don't need to have KARMA active any more when playing back the recording on the sequencer.

[MrSteveVee]

That's excellent, thank you. I have been gnawing away at this but I am not that proficient in the keyboard so thanks for confirming that it is not a setting that I have upset somewhere and showing me the root of the problem. I shall now investigate event edits

Appreciate your time

Steve