Lol - you make it sound so simple Greg. What melody lol? Obviously there is one but without studying jazz I can't pick up on it. To me - and I mean no disrespect at all because I know how big the genre is - it all sounds very 'loose and free' to me. I can't hear a melody, well not one I can follow or predict - it seems like 'anything goes' with jazz. It must be a very liberating way to play in one sense but having said that there was definite 'structure' to your bass line - I find bass hardest to compose because by moving away from the root note of the backing can change the emphasis in really dramatic ways - I love the effects of playing 3rds in bass instead of the root note but then coming back to the root and playing the same progression gives it a whole new feel - but turning those inverted bass notes into scaled patterns is a whole different game - Mark Knopfler's bassist does some amazing work whereas I struggle to 'find' those magic combinations except by accident.
A quick example - a three chord (triad) progression, Gm (G4, B flat4, D5) down to F (F4, A4, C5) inverted B flat (F4, B flat4, D5) but the bassline ascends from the G2, A2 to B flat2 - sounds totally different from playing bassline G2, F2, B flat2 - so the chords sound like they drop to the F and up to the B flat but the bass is 3 simple ascending notes - changes the entire emphasis of the progression - emphasis on the A bass over the F chord - simple and well used technique (hopefully I've written the right notes in lol). But jazz? I dunno where anybody is lol or what key they're in - or if there is one lol. Most genres are fairly 'easy' to understand even if they're hard to play; classical for example - Jazz just seems "way out there where there's no rules, no boundaries etc' but there clearly is otherwise it wouldn't be so popular and there wouldn't be such fine jazz musicians - maybe I just never studied any aspect of it so I'll never understand it until I do - which is unlikely because I need that structure and organisation - and predictability; I feel safe there.
Make any sense?
About 6 yrs ago, 2 Kronos owners met and there was a Song ..
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
-
GregC
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 9451
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 12:46 am
- Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
LOL. I like this type of discussion.Schmooster wrote:Lol - you make it sound so simple Greg. What melody lol? Obviously there is one but without studying jazz I can't pick up on it. To me - and I mean no disrespect at all because I know how big the genre is - it all sounds very 'loose and free' to me. I can't hear a melody, well not one I can follow or predict - it seems like 'anything goes' with jazz. It must be a very liberating way to play in one sense but having said that there was definite 'structure' to your bass line - I find bass hardest to compose because by moving away from the root note of the backing can change the emphasis in really dramatic ways - I love the effects of playing 3rds in bass instead of the root note but then coming back to the root and playing the same progression gives it a whole new feel - but turning those inverted bass notes into scaled patterns is a whole different game - Mark Knopfler's bassist does some amazing work whereas I struggle to 'find' those magic combinations except by accident.
A quick example - a three chord (triad) progression, Gm (G4, B flat4, D5) down to F (F4, A4, C5) inverted B flat (F4, B flat4, D5) but the bassline ascends from the G2, A2 to B flat2 - sounds totally different from playing bassline G2, F2, B flat2 - so the chords sound like they drop to the F and up to the B flat but the bass is 3 simple ascending notes - changes the entire emphasis of the progression - emphasis on the A bass over the F chord - simple and well used technique (hopefully I've written the right notes in lol). But jazz? I dunno where anybody is lol or what key they're in - or if there is one lol. Most genres are fairly 'easy' to understand even if they're hard to play; classical for example - Jazz just seems "way out there where there's no rules, no boundaries etc' but there clearly is otherwise it wouldn't be so popular and there wouldn't be such fine jazz musicians - maybe I just never studied any aspect of it so I'll never understand it until I do - which is unlikely because I need that structure and organisation - and predictability; I feel safe there.
Make any sense?
Maybe I can best answer with an example ? This is a 5 minute cover;
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/b ... l-sad00wav
I consider this new age jazz - from the 90's. As I mentioned I am just
touching on the genre with my performance. I think you can here the melody with this song- its lyrical and has a grace to it. Whats interesting with Beautiful Sadness is that the piano is mostly 'fill' , playing inside/out the melody.
I don't consider myself a jazz musician, not even close. I don't have any plans to seriously study it. But I will cover an *easy* jazz tune here and there just for fun. Its a huge bag of tricks to pick from.
You got the right idea with how bass plays into and takes certain chords in new directions. I also do some thing similar with string sections, almost like playing in another key using just 2,3, or 4 notes.
I don't know if thorough analysis will get you over the hump on jazz. And nothing wrong with analysis in general- I made a career in financial analysis.
To be analytical or process oriented is a gift.
Back to grabbing at jazz ideas, idioms. It is loosely structured in my brain. Your jazz song could simply start with a phrase you have been rattling around with.
You can also decide ' the heck with it '. I feel that way about pop country stuff. I think we all have to find our own passage, our own path, our own way, in life and music creation.
The great think with our music art form, is, for example, I don't feel tied to convention. Or pleasing everyone or a large group of listeners.
-
Schmooster
- Full Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:02 am
Ahh now see, that's not what I'd call 'jazz' - I've got no trouble following that - the bass mostly follows the root notes (when it's high enough to be able to pick the note out lol) - even the piano and muted trumpet are all 'in key' and in time with each other here. That's a nice piece of music.
I'm on about the 'other' kinda jazz - much faster tempo, some crazy time signature and everyone takes it in turns to 'play' loose and free - that's the stuff I struggle with. Again, without meaning any disrespect to anybody or the genre to me it sounds like me throwing my cat onto the Kronos and chasing up and down the keys (giving it the odd slap here and there) / brushed snares, no breaks, and a rhythm that if you walked to would make you look like you had Parkinson's but took a lot of coke before going out - that jazz (I'm trying to think of some musicians without googling - I hate it when I know them but can't name them - I could name one for every instrument; most of the greats are dead - I grew up on jazz thanks to my father's non-musical ear
) then I got him into Jarre and he was like "Ohhh, so THIS is music) - yeah, kinda Dad, listen to Dire Straits though "Urghh, you're right - that IS Dire - 'Nooo, that's the name of..... ah forget it, put your jazz back on) - but he'd tap his foot, slap his knees and 'dance' in his chair like he 'felt' the rhythm (of course he was drunk) - he'd fall asleep to Jarre and the Straits were 'Dire'? See that's where a Jazz-lover's perspective is in comparison, although he wasn't musical and obviously I'm over-generalising. It's a very complex structure - it has to be otherwise to me there just isn't one; so in order to respect the memories "Chet Baker? Barker?" - had to say before I forgot lol; so yeah, all due respect for the one current genre (except all electronic non-music music) I'll probably never play. Chet - jazz trumpet, kept me up most school-nights from age 7.
I still don't get it though
But I am very analytical, my job demands it and so does my third wife; I'm practically a gynaecologist....... well I can name all the bits anyway.
Good luck with your journey into jazz Greg - I'm off mostly into symphonic metal now, Rock has always been my musical home.
Cheers, it's been enlightening!
I'm on about the 'other' kinda jazz - much faster tempo, some crazy time signature and everyone takes it in turns to 'play' loose and free - that's the stuff I struggle with. Again, without meaning any disrespect to anybody or the genre to me it sounds like me throwing my cat onto the Kronos and chasing up and down the keys (giving it the odd slap here and there) / brushed snares, no breaks, and a rhythm that if you walked to would make you look like you had Parkinson's but took a lot of coke before going out - that jazz (I'm trying to think of some musicians without googling - I hate it when I know them but can't name them - I could name one for every instrument; most of the greats are dead - I grew up on jazz thanks to my father's non-musical ear
) then I got him into Jarre and he was like "Ohhh, so THIS is music) - yeah, kinda Dad, listen to Dire Straits though "Urghh, you're right - that IS Dire - 'Nooo, that's the name of..... ah forget it, put your jazz back on) - but he'd tap his foot, slap his knees and 'dance' in his chair like he 'felt' the rhythm (of course he was drunk) - he'd fall asleep to Jarre and the Straits were 'Dire'? See that's where a Jazz-lover's perspective is in comparison, although he wasn't musical and obviously I'm over-generalising. It's a very complex structure - it has to be otherwise to me there just isn't one; so in order to respect the memories "Chet Baker? Barker?" - had to say before I forgot lol; so yeah, all due respect for the one current genre (except all electronic non-music music) I'll probably never play. Chet - jazz trumpet, kept me up most school-nights from age 7. I still don't get it though
But I am very analytical, my job demands it and so does my third wife; I'm practically a gynaecologist....... well I can name all the bits anyway. Good luck with your journey into jazz Greg - I'm off mostly into symphonic metal now, Rock has always been my musical home.
Cheers, it's been enlightening!
There definitely is a spectrum of freeness in jazz. Ornate Coleman on one extreme, kind of like Jackson Pollock in sound. Not for everyone! I think everyone has different ways of hearing music, on a physical level. Long time ago, I had a good friend who came to many of my gigs. Was talking to his wife on a break, and came to the realization that she couldn't pick out different instruments when they played together. He'd be like, nice solo on succh and such tune, and she'd be like, I don't really know what part of the sound you are making. It was all just one thing to her, even though it was fairly laid back acoustic music where things were pretty clean and separate. It was eye opening. After listening to some CDs with her and working on it over time, we were able to "teach" her ear to pull things apart. I guess then, people that hear music in different ways could react to different styles from that perspective, too.
Kronos 2.73 - NanoPad2 - MBP - DP9
-
Schmooster
- Full Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:02 am
Ahh I have the same issue with my wife. I'll make a whole key change, or leave the bass hanging on one note and ask her "Can you feel the drama that adds" and she'll say "You just played the same thing 5 times" 
"What? Listen carefully....." and I'll play something familiar like Toto Africa - the main bridge chords and how the bass drops on the 2nd then picks up again and she'll say "Okay...." Then I'll play the same chords but the bass notes drop down to the last note instead of it being an octave higher (I'm sorry I don't what key I'm in or I'd describe it - it doesn't matter anyway) but it makes a big difference, it sounds 'fuller' to me - and she'll say "But that's exactly what you just played..." honestly if that's how most people hear music it's no wonder they just drink and sway around their handbags to it. I dunno why I bother improvising
All I hear in my house is "Will you put your bloody headphones on, that's 30 times you've played that song in a row...." Grrrr no it isn't woman, every version was different (cos I can't play it the same twice - I'm shite) and there were 3 songs dammit!! So YOU turn your bloody washing machine up if you don't like it, put 5 more beach-towels in and wreck the bearings again!! Knowing full well she can't hear me cos if she could I wouldn't be here. Listen to her snore FFS, stop breathing the same rasp woman!! Yes I'm on marriage number 3. Yes I'm a glutton for it. But she's tone deaf! They all were except when they howl at the moon.....
"What? Listen carefully....." and I'll play something familiar like Toto Africa - the main bridge chords and how the bass drops on the 2nd then picks up again and she'll say "Okay...." Then I'll play the same chords but the bass notes drop down to the last note instead of it being an octave higher (I'm sorry I don't what key I'm in or I'd describe it - it doesn't matter anyway) but it makes a big difference, it sounds 'fuller' to me - and she'll say "But that's exactly what you just played..." honestly if that's how most people hear music it's no wonder they just drink and sway around their handbags to it. I dunno why I bother improvising
All I hear in my house is "Will you put your bloody headphones on, that's 30 times you've played that song in a row...." Grrrr no it isn't woman, every version was different (cos I can't play it the same twice - I'm shite)
and there were 3 songs dammit!! So YOU turn your bloody washing machine up if you don't like it, put 5 more beach-towels in and wreck the bearings again!! Knowing full well she can't hear me cos if she could I wouldn't be here. Listen to her snore FFS, stop breathing the same rasp woman!! Yes I'm on marriage number 3. Yes I'm a glutton for it. But she's tone deaf! They all were except when they howl at the moon.....