Which is the best for a music composer , kronos LS or PA4X_

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Rajt
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Which is the best for a music composer , kronos LS or PA4X_

Post by Rajt »

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Au


:) hi friends,
I am looking to buy a professional keyboard which serves me in composing a film song , arranging music for the song , creating back ground music infact the music for this modern genre.
I used to play Yamaha PSR series 15 years back , ( not a professional player ,( didn't take any formal training in playing a piano, somehow i learnt playing it ). But i know what to play for my songs.
Since 15 years i am away from music and working for a company.
Now i realized that i shouldn't quit from music and keep my composing songs. I have decided to shell some decent amount from pocket and buy a high end model as one time investment, i will not buy any other key board for coming 5 years atleast.
I have been reading your expertize opinion and thought to seek your advise before buying a keyboard
I have decided to buy a Korg. But very much confused between Kronos and a PA4X.
Since im not trained in playing a piano it will be difficult for me to play weighted keys , so thinking to buy a Korg Kronos LS 88, but came to know that it doesn't have aftertouch .
So dear brothers now u all no my position, u all are professionals , please help me and guide me what should i buy kronos LS 88 or Pa4x , which is the best bet for coming 5 years.
Please help me brothers.
Regards,
Traj.
Raj
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Post by GregC »

It's not easy to give good advice

What jumps out is you are not interested in actually playing piano parts.

To be a composer IMO, I prefer to have a fair grasp on how basic instruments should be played.

I suppose it is not your preference to learn the various instruments via a complex keyboard like the Kronos.

You can have a lot of fun with combis, Karma. That can be a source of inspiration. But to compose/record Songs , you might use the SEQ.

I think , given the above, an arranger is a better choice
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Post by tomto66 »

I beg to differ GregC (though I dig what you're saying). I would think that if you're composing from scratch a Kronos is a better choice - an arranger will help making a quick & dirty arrangement, but if you compose e.g. film tracks I would think as a composer you want control over every voice (not use canned parts).

That said, and like GregC mentioned, the Kronos is a VERY complex beast - are you sure you're ready for that? Also, the sequencer is - erm - different - there's no piano roll. Since I assume you'll be composing at home, there is no need to have all-in-one package (like the Pa and the Kronos) - you might be better off (and cheaper!) with a good DAW and a bunch of soft synths. The learning curve would definitely be not a steep as a Kronos ...
Kronos X-88, Nanopad2, Tascam US122 MKii, Roli Rise 49
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Post by GregC »

tomto66 wrote:I beg to differ GregC (though I dig what you're saying). I would think that if you're composing from scratch a Kronos is a better choice - an arranger will help making a quick & dirty arrangement, but if you compose e.g. film tracks I would think as a composer you want control over every voice (not use canned parts).

That said, and like GregC mentioned, the Kronos is a VERY complex beast - are you sure you're ready for that? Also, the sequencer is - erm - different - there's no piano roll. Since I assume you'll be composing at home, there is no need to have all-in-one package (like the Pa and the Kronos) - you might be better off (and cheaper!) with a good DAW and a bunch of soft synths. The learning curve would definitely be not a steep as a Kronos ...
I think we are on the same page. As a creative song writer, I need a ' blank canvas ' to work with. and I like the challenge of different instruments.
I put in the time. To spend 1 month or more on 1 song is normal for me.

But I did not read that from the o/p. Thus his needs sound like he needs quicker in the can type fills, parts, what have you. The Kronos is not quick and simple for multi track composing, as we both seem to agree. But I really like it.
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19naia
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Post by 19naia »

If you are recording vocals and like a vocal harmonizer, PAx4 has TC helicon vocal harmonizer. Kronos does not.

If you are looking for ready made rhythms with several quick fit fills, breaks and intros per each rythm, then PAx4 has all that plus added parts like bass that follow along with the rythm and notes played. Kronos does not have that even though Karma comes close.
Kronos does have Karma which goes a long way with accompaniment but it is hard to dial in the *traditional* style fills and intros with karma GE. You can get some fashion of fills and breaks and intros to work for you from Karma but it will be a noticeable difference from what and how PAx4 does.
Kronos rythms have fills built into them and kronos has a potent rythm making&arranging feature in Sequencer mode (pattern RPPR) and that can couple with Karma's extensive rythm design features. All that can be put into midi tracks, chopped and re-fitted, one rythm layered with others to make one hybrid and other tricks.

So... When it comes to what you can do from scratch, wether it be making rythms, designing sounds, redesignng existing sounds, sampling wizardry, extensive high quality sounds across various synth engines with open door to bring in third party sounds and remove factory sounds you do not want, linking to and working with external devices, playing huge layerd sounds with rythm and arpeggio, huge internal memory, output and input plug holes and assignability of their function and routing, internal routing of everything from effects to controls and on and on, Kronos has a bit of an edge over the rest.
Huge internal memory and storage also. Kronos.

If you can do without the PSR series method of rhythm accompaniment using ready made bass and drum parts with fills and intros easily tapped in on cue, then you will enter a whole new world that makes PSR series look like a toy(although the latest versions of PSR are right up there with PAx4).
If you need the PSR style of easy ready made rhythm/accompaniment, then go with PAx4. You will also have fun with TC helicon vocal harmonizer.
You will miss out on Karma and that is a lot.

Kronos synth engine sounds are better than PAx4 from what i listened to on youtube.
I am one who needs PAx and PSR style accompaniment with ready made fills that can be called up from varieties ,on cue with just a touch. I still got Kronos instead and planned to get a hardware drum machine for an extra $500. Skipped TC helicon and get Karma instead. I don't sing anyway.

Also computer software synths and DAW with Kronos is what will outdo anything i can think of. You can get computer based vocal harmonizer plugin, Karma has a software version that opens up an alreay vast Kronos Karma suite into a bigger and more customizable suite of GE's.

Kronos- better sound with karma to add but no TC helicon or traditional style drum accompaniment.
Possible work arounds with software though.

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 48bd3051d6

PAx4-lesser sound quality and has TC helicon voice harmonizer but no Karma. It has an extensive traditional style rythm accompaniment similar to PSR accompaniment but much more extensive in more ways than just rhythm styles. Newest PSR series have almost caught up with PA-x4 by closing in on Tyros-5 capabilities.

You will miss a lot without Karma but maybe it will be ok because you won't know what you are missing and PAx4 has more than enough for advanced music making.

Not sure which system is harder to learn, but both are very similar navigation layout. Korg modern style of workflow.
Karma is one section that makes kronos harder to fully learn.

I went with Kronos for the sound quality and 88 key graded hammer action. I rather keep my fingers trained on heavy keys and quality feel. I feel i am missing out on PAx4 offerings but i can easily make up for that and beyond with my Dr.880 drum machine and a computer based suite of all kinds of stuff that offer more than any of the major synth makers' flagship equipment.

Get the keybed right no matter what you get. Get the key feel and function that is right for your needs. All else can be substituted with external devices and computer based plugins over time.
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Post by 19naia »

Karma lab words about difference between arranger and Karma.

http://karma-lab.wikidot.com/karma2:how ... peggiators

Karma is the closest you can come to arranger function in Kronos but not because it lacks, but because it is designed for something beyond.
Kronos has all the tools needed to make backing arrangement tracks that exceed anything an arranger can do, but it will be all tailor made pre-recorded, press play and play along with the keys. With some real expereince, you may be able to interact with the pre recorded backing tracks if you want some arranger style flexibility. It will just take a lot of working it out in a complex kronos system and possibly joining to external midi equipment.

If you are not live gigging and do not need it quick and simple like Karaoke :lol:, then start with Kronos. The things Kronos can teach you over 5 years will make PAx4 easy if you decide you want to move to an arranger to make things simple and quick.
I think kronos is the better studio based workstation where you can have long hours of experimentation with extensive tools to make all kinds of things happen from the smallest part up.

AGAIN ~ Be sure You get the keybed that is right for you even if it means going with something other than Kronos. Easy to make up for it with computer based DAW and plugins. Not sure about Karma though. It may be limited to just a few synth workstations. Do not miss out on Karma if you can.
Rajt
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Post by Rajt »

Dear expert brothers,
Thanks a lot for your response.
But still i am unable to decide what to buy
To compose music for Indian film music and of western as well i need a good keyboard.
Please advise, if i want to compose a song , can record 16 individual instrument sounds in 16 tracks can i do it. And i will input the vocals on the created instrument track.
If i can do it this way , please which suits me pa4x or kronos LS.
And also tell me does Korg LS 88 has aftertouch feature, and korg LS will serve my purpose.
This forum is the only source where i can get genuine expertise advise. So i will bug you untill i make decision, please bear me. :lol: .
Help me brothers
Raj
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Post by GregC »

Rajt wrote:Dear expert brothers,
Thanks a lot for your response.
But still i am unable to decide what to buy
To compose music for Indian film music and of western as well i need a good keyboard.
Please advise, if i want to compose a song , can record 16 individual instrument sounds in 16 tracks can i do it. And i will input the vocals on the created instrument track.
If i can do it this way , please which suits me pa4x or kronos LS.
And also tell me does Korg LS 88 has aftertouch feature, and korg LS will serve my purpose.
This forum is the only source where i can get genuine expertise advise. So i will bug you untill i make decision, please bear me. :lol: .
Help me brothers
we are helping you. After your 15 yr absence plus working with a PSR before hand is no experience for a Kronos.

Kronos is not a simple push button keyboard. You will need some months of lead time to understand and record SONGs on it or from it.

KRome might be a more logical keyboard as a good 1st step.
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Post by QuiRobinez »

Rajt wrote:Dear expert brothers,
Thanks a lot for your response.
But still i am unable to decide what to buy
To compose music for Indian film music and of western as well i need a good keyboard.
Please advise, if i want to compose a song , can record 16 individual instrument sounds in 16 tracks can i do it. And i will input the vocals on the created instrument track.
If i can do it this way , please which suits me pa4x or kronos LS.
And also tell me does Korg LS 88 has aftertouch feature, and korg LS will serve my purpose.
This forum is the only source where i can get genuine expertise advise. So i will bug you untill i make decision, please bear me. :lol: .
Help me brothers
I have them both in my studio (the korg kronos and the korg pa4x)
I think your choice should depend on your skill level and expectations. Let me eleborate on that.

If you want to have a keyboard where a band of 8 persons jams with you during your performance then the pa4x is the obvious choice. You can convert midi files to styles there and play along your own tunes. Also it has two midi file / mp3 players that you can use for your backing tracks if you need them.

If you want to have a workstation with a sequencer with lot's of different kind of synthesizers on board then the kronos is the obvious choice. The downside of the korg kronos is that it has a steep learning curve. The upside of it is that you will have a workstation that will surprise you for years.

The keyboard of the pa4x is a semi weighted keyboard that plays absolutely fantastic. The Korg LS 88 has a piano keyboard that you need to get used to if you never played the piano before, but you will get used to the feel, i'm confident that that isn't an issue. The Pa4x has aftertouch the LS88 not, but you can use the ribbon for those kind of things if needed.

Soundwise i have a different opinion then some of the others in this thread. I think the Pa4x is almost on the same level soundwise as the korg kronos. It sounds fantastic, the korg kronos sounds a little bit better but that difference can only be heared on high end monitors.

Personally i would choose the korg kronos for movie music because it's basically 9 instruments in one, but keep in mind that KARMA is not an arranger tool, also you can't program your own patterns in KARMA without extra software that you have to buy if you want that feature. The Korg Pa4x has a midi file to style converter where you can use 8 sounds for the accompanient.

On my youtube channel there are lots of demos of the korg Kronos and Korg Pa4x, so you can compare them. All demos are recorded directly from the instruments themselves, so that is what you can achieve if you have mastered the features of the keyboard. The Korg Pa4x is more easy to learn compared to the kronos.

I've selected a few demos of my channel which i think show the similarities in sound or differences to get you started in your comparison process. If you want more demos, just visit my youtube channel, there are over 80 korg related videos in there so lot's of information there.

Here are a few of the demos i think that are of interest to you

Korg Kronos Combi Ascension Island Demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SThAHBjo0c
this demo shows a combi with KARMA in action and how to use the four karma engines to create the background for your song.

Korg Kronos Combi Angels Choir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNQ_TtJisQ8
this demo shows a movie like choir in combi format

Korg Kronos Sounds Only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yveHzuhHQIo
this is an example of solo sounds of the wavesequenced sounds i've created myself

Korg Kronos Deep Ambient Space Sounds only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaNwNpfa0wU
this is a demo where i play solo sounds that i programmed for a deep ambient soundscape like environment



Korg Pa4x EDM & Trance Sounds (played with a style)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbHAX2cQP1M
in this demo i play a trance tune live with my own programmed sounds (there is a great synthesizer on board of the pa4x where you can program your own sounds)

Korg Pa4x Choir and Strings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63MfQzDdnu0
here is play a couple of my own sounds where you can hear the angels choir sound that i've reprogrammed on the pa4x (that sound is build with the standard rom samples, i didn't sample the kronos for that), also a couple of string orchestral sound are played in this demo

Korg Pa4x Synth sounds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh7PVSx5WrM
here i play a couple of wavesequenced type of synth sounds on the korg pa4x (yes, the korg pa4x also supports wave sequences up till 24 steps!)


hope this helps you in your descision process
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Post by Rajt »

Sir,
I have gone through the videos you have sent. Sound wise kronos has a very rich sound. Just wanted to know that in your first video was aftertouch facility was utilized?
Can i record 16 different instruments sounds on 16 tracks ?
Sir , can i go for korg ls 88.
If u r my position which one would u prefer.
I wont be able to replace my keyboard frequently, thats y i want to buy a good keyboard, where i can use it for several years with its modern sounds and technology.
If i could replace or buy a new keyboard every year or two then with out hesitating i would have gone for normal keyboard and keep updating it as per my requirement.
Please advise sir.
Raj
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Post by QuiRobinez »

Rajt wrote: I have gone through the videos you have sent. Sound wise kronos has a very rich sound. Just wanted to know that in your first video was aftertouch facility was utilized?
No, i never use aftertouch, i use the joystick or ribbon for those kind of features, because you can lock that value on a kronos.
Rajt wrote: Can i record 16 different instruments sounds on 16 tracks ?
yes, as long as you don't exceed the maximum polyphony and CPU power.
Rajt wrote: Sir , can i go for korg ls 88.
sure, but if aftertouch is really important for you then the ls88 is not a good choice, since it doesn't support it. Then go for a kronos 2 for instance, that keyboard supports aftertouch.
Rajt wrote: If u r my position which one would u prefer.
that depends on what you really mean with making music for movies. If you just want to play movie like themes then a kronos or pa4x would be fine. I can easely play an exact match of the game of thrones theme on my pa4x if i add a few samples to them (for the drums).

But if you mean that you are going to create music that actually is used in commercial movies then i would go for a computer based solution. As far as i know, every movie musician has gone computer based sequencing. The benefits of that are endless, much more easy arranging possibilities of your song in a DAW / sequencer, total recall of your project (so every sound is loaded as intended) which is quite handy when working on multiple projects at once. Better and cheaper sound libraries available, and so on.

The downside is that it is probably more expensive then just one kronos or pa4x.

But the minimal setup you need in that case in my opinion is (which should be in your budget):
- Computer
- low latency audio card
- DAW / sequencer (like sonar, cubase, logic, ableton live, or any other that you prefer)
- Native Komplete keyboard to play on
- Native Komplete software suite
- Spectrasonics Omnisphere 2 synth

Then you have a fantastic studio based movie setup to create commercial movietracks with. But that's a different approach and also that one has quite a steep learning curve.
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Post by DennyC »

Qui,

You are awesome...great stuff!!! kudos :) :) :)
Kronos 2 61, Wavestation A/D, Yamaha Genos and others.
Rajt
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Post by Rajt »

Sir,
Thank you so much for your advise and guidance.
Sir , i am still in last stage of my confusion.
I have seen all your videos , as i mentioned that i liked the rich sounds of Korg Kronos , i have few more queries.

Please do think otherwise that i am bugging you, this is only place where i can get the best of the solutions. The city where i stay , music stores does not hold the stock of Kronos, they said only on order they can get it for me.
Since , you are a keyboard maestro, you are the only person who can help and guide me.

Sir , i would like to compose music for Indian Films (songs and background) hope you know , how typically the strings flow in a song (fast) if i buy Kronos 2 i think i wont be able to play so fast as it has weighted action keys.

Instead if i go ahead and buy Kronos LS88 , is it good ?

1. If i want to buy Kronos LS 88 , then can i manage it without aftertouch as u do in Kronos 2 can i do it on LS (can i use the joystick or ribbon for those kind of features, can i lock that value on a kronos LS88 )

2. I have only read about the after touch feature , can you share any video or guide for what purpose it is used. Is it like when we hit the key and hold it produces vibration. or is it something else

3. I have read it some where that Kronos LS 88 Keybed and Krome 88 keybed are the same.

Thanks and regards
traj
Raj
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Post by QuiRobinez »

Rajt wrote: Instead if i go ahead and buy Kronos LS88 , is it good ?

1. If i want to buy Kronos LS 88 , then can i manage it without aftertouch as u do in Kronos 2 can i do it on LS (can i use the joystick or ribbon for those kind of features, can i lock that value on a kronos LS88 )

2. I have only read about the after touch feature , can you share any video or guide for what purpose it is used. Is it like when we hit the key and hold it produces vibration. or is it something else
to be honest, based on the aftertouch questions you keep asking, i think the kronos is a little bit to complex for you at the moment and you are better of with a pa4x.

You are so focused on aftertouch without knowing what it is, that i ask myself why you ask these kind of questions, since it has nothing to do with creating movie music.

Aftertouch is simply put a controller that sends values from 0 - 127 to a parameter of your choice, you can sent that value by pressing harder on the keys. That's all.

Aftertouch does nothing else. In general it is used by some type of musicians to add vibrator to a sound or to open the cutoff on a pad sound for instance, so that they can keep playing and add cutoff or vibrato to the sound without lifting their hands. It's just a playing technique.

But really, if you have so much trouble understanding these kind of basic keyboard features that are explained all over the internet, you are going to get in real trouble with the thousends of parameters on the korg kronos and the complex implementation of KARMA and the sequencer.

It's your own choice, but it's not a cheap workstation, so be confident that you can learn that stuff yourself, otherwise go for something more simple to learn the basics.
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Post by AntonySharmman »

Rajt wrote: i would like to compose music for Indian Films (songs and background) hope you know ,
how typically the strings flow in a song (fast) if i buy Kronos 2 i think i wont be able to play so fast as it has weighted action keys.
Qui has analyzed all the parameters you need for your case so I don't understand your obsession with LS
weighted keyboard when you are not a trained pianist !
- For film scoring , your first option is VST & all computer gear mentioned.
- Workstation second option is Kronos X or Kronos 2 (61 keybed) , but you will need many extra commercial libraries
for your needs and you have to spend a lot of time to learn all Kronos functions that you will need for sequencing
where DAW usage will be inevitable.
- Pa4X is a different option , based on the case you need a ready to play orchestra for live performance , that you have
to create from scratch and you will also need extra libraries support for your kind of Music , not to mention the required
learning curve on Pa4X engine functions !
- On the other hand , if your workflow "picture" is close to Yamaha PSR you had owned then a Pa4X is your best option (but not the proper one).

Hope this helps
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Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II, Synclavier II , Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V

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