Importing a BIAB Chord Sequence

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:21 pm

Hi All, created a chord sequence in BIAB. Saved it out as a MID0 file but keep getting error message when I try to import it into a style. CS lock is off.

I have tried exporting a CS to a file - with success. Then wipe the track and copy my CS onto the track and then import back to a style. Same error message.

I am able to export a CS from one style and import it sucessfully into another.

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? Many thanks.

Ron

pa4x_user · Post by **pa4x_user** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:22 am

I can’t help you with this, sorry, but I am a big fan of Band-in-a-Box (BIAB).

If you can solve this, it would be pretty useful.

[I have imported midi files from BIAB, and then used the Korg midi to to style converter with moderate success, but that doesn’t address what you are trying to do]

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:34 pm

It is very easy and fast to enter a chord sequence in BIAB … not so fast and easy on the 4x for a lengthy and/or complex sequence. So I want to create chord sequences in BIAB and export to the 4x to make better use of the 4x chord sequence feature. With some help from the BIAB techies, I am able to export BIAB chords only to a MIDI 0 file. But I have not been able to get the sequence into the 4x so far.

Here is what I have tried and am going to try again to be sure I didn't miss something:

1. Create a simple CS, on the 4x and export to a file as "4x CS1"

2. Import "4x CS1" just to be sure that works.

3. Open "4x CS1" in Sonar and make a small change. Save as "4x CS2" MIDI type 0.

4. Assuming step 3 works ok, I'll create a short sequence in BIAB and export only the chords to a midi type 0 file, "BIAB CS1" . I think the midi file needs to be a single track with everything on channel 1. You don't get this when you export the chords only from BIAB so I have used Sonar to eliminate all but 1 track and to move all the notes to channel 1. Save the modified file as "BIAB CS1a"

5. Attempt to import BIAB CS1a into a 4x style. I'm not sure if I import as chords or notes but neither has worked so far.

I have the CS lock open in Global. I have not tried setting the chord recognition to channel 1. I don't think this will matter but I will try it today.

I think this has got to be a problem with the file format being imported back into the 4x but I can't seem to find the problem. Any suggestions are welcome.

Post by **karmathanever** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:21 pm

Hi Ron

I use CS but by recording the sequence directly as a CS.

Now I am fascinated....so I went for an import from a simple 3 track jazz MIDI file (piano bass drums)...
I just imported this SMF to CS with no errors (using "notes" option) BUT my question is WHICH MIDI TRACK DO THE NOTES IMPORT FROM??

The results I get are odd to say the least......

Does the MIDI file have to contain ONLY the chord notes? I was hoping I could select a MIDI file and specific track - seems the PA4X imports from all tracks!!????? or does it????

Have I missed something in the manual???

Pete

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:34 pm

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the reply and the interest. Obviously I am not sure how this works but I will get at this later today and post my results. Hopefully with a few experiments, we can figure it out. Seems like it should be simple but there must be some nuance in the translation from BIAB midi 0 to the actual import into the 4x...track, channel, etc. I don't know yet.

Also don't understand chords versus notes on import. Manual talks about chords in lyrics??? Means nothing to me.

More later.

pa4x_user · Post by **pa4x_user** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:07 pm

Ron,

See if you can export a midi file from BIAB, but with all of the accompaniment voices muted (so that theoretically only a chord track would be exported). Just maybe it might be a possible workaround.

Phil

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:43 pm

Well, I got it to work … sort of.

First Phil, thanks for the suggestion. I was already doing this but started wondering if Master Mute created a different result than muting all of the parts individually -- it does not. There are however several BIAB settings that I changed to get a single track, i.e. chords on track 1, channel 1. In BIAB O/P Chords, set Channel 1, set Chord Anticipate to "0" to avoid dropping first chord of the sequence and check "write track to midi file." In Song settings, uncheck 2-bar ending. In Save Special, Midi File Options, uncheck 2-bar lead-in. And of course, save the file as a type 0.

So after doing all of the above I got the same "copy chord sequence failure" message when I tried to import to 4x as chords or notes.

I decided to study a factory CS more closely. I exported the Side Pop sequence to Sonar and noticed that the chords all seem to be split with the root in the bass clef and the complete chord in the treble clef. In other words, the complete chord is shown an octave above the root. This kind of makes sense if you are going to be able to use slash chords. Anyway, I edited my BIAB chord sequence to mimic the 4X sequence and it imported just fine as NOTES. Although the same file also imported OK as CHORDS, it did not play the chord, maybe just the root, I'm not sure.

So, some progress but not the answer. Objective was to easily load a BIAB CS to a 4x style. At this point, I would have to edit every chord exported from BIAB manually to get the format the 4X seems to require.

I intend to keep working on this as I think it might still be possible, but I'm tired fighting with it today! Regards to all.

tordenspyd · Post by **tordenspyd** » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:20 am

Ron wrote:It is very easy and fast to enter a chord sequence in BIAB … not so fast and easy on the 4x for a lengthy and/or complex sequence..........

I agree; the GUI to create the Chord Sequence isn BIAB is attractive, and it would have been good to have that in the Pa4X or running BIAB-remote on a connected iPad or another app on the iPad with same interface.

I have BIAB for Mac.
It does not export Chords in midi files, only in XML files.
I have had the need to export the chords only to a notation program without XML before, I have used the same procedure to import to Pa4X and it works at least.

For making a suitable midi file I have used a special style in BIAB, it only has one instrument which holds the chords for its total length of the pattern or chord. I mute the drum track not to get the metronome click in the beginning and I either skip the count in when I import to Pa4X, by setting the bars to import, or I uncheck the inclusion of count in in BIAB. Similarly for the ending. The midi file only has on track.

This worked both by setting import by notes or import by chords. That seems unexpected to me, so I don't seem to understand what Pa4X means by importing by chords.

However, while it worked, it did not work as I wanted in this case:
I entered the chord F into BIAB, which generates a three note chord with A as lowest note, That is interpreted by the CS import procedure of Pa4X as F/A and the Pa4X Style generates F with A in the bass, which was inappropriate for the intended song.

It would have been good if the chord recognition followed the same settings and rules as when pressing the Pa4X keyboard; when I press the same notes on the Pa4X it is recognised as F not F/A.

Maybe rewriting the BIAB style would have worked, adding a deeper bass note to all the chords. The Mac interface for making styles in BIAB really does not work though.

peace

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:13 pm

Hi All, just got up and ready to attack this again. (Not really - just having my coffee)

So here is what got me started on this. I have been able to drive the chord recognition in the 4x from BIAB. I know from the forum that others have done this as well. If the 4x chord recognition can read the BIAB chord output I thought I could store the same BIAB chords in a 4x chord sequence rather than having to deal with BIAB and the interface every time I want the chords played for me. As noted above, no joy so far.

Going to try a different approach today. My experience has been that when I record a sequence directly to a style on the 4x, I get exactly what I play. Later today I'm going to record a few sequences on the 4x to study the exported CS format further. Maybe this will show what I'm missing. Doesn't seem like there should be different rules for played sequences vs imported sequences.

To Tordenspyd: Thanks for the reply. MIDI file save is under "Save Special" in my PC version of BIAB. Also, when I type in an F chord, BIAB outputs an F chord in the root position, F-A-C. Not sure why you are getting an inverted chord.

tordenspyd · Post by **tordenspyd** » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:35 pm

Ron wrote:Hi All, ........To Tordenspyd: Thanks for the reply. MIDI file save is under "Save Special" in my PC version of BIAB. Also, when I type in an F chord, BIAB outputs an F chord in the root position, F-A-C. Not sure why you are getting an inverted chord.

Thanks for the reply Ron

The inverted chord out is not strange or inappropriate.
This is the chord BIAB generates for the piano player in that style.
PaX also wraps around and inverts the chords in a style, dependent on the setting of the range the wrap around factor and the original key.

I just in this case would have preferred that the Pa4X would interprete the chords -when importing midi files-the same way as if I played it on the keyboard. It is usually not a disaster when it comes to the chord voicing for piano and guitar, but may be awkward sounding for the bass. i.e. if you play a Chicago blues with a pedal third in the bass in the first 4 bars you would get bad looks from the blues men around you.

Hope you get it to work for you. Maybe I pick up a PC.

peace

Brian007 · Post by **Brian007** » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:13 pm

Hi Guys,

I have a Pa700 and have been following your posts and I have a copy of Cubase AI 9.5 on my computer that I got with a piece of kit I bought,any way I created a chord track using the chord padd and save it as a midi and it imports into the Chord Sequencer just fine using either Chords or Notes it will also load into the Sequencer on the Pa700 and plays the chords just fine in all respects, I have uploaded the midi track for you to try and see if its any good for what you after, just a short hand full of random chords
https://app.box.com/s/6czb95e4zi5lsgilu9k2p8yabqkbeku1

Brian007

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:17 pm

Brian - thanks for the post. Very interesting. I see that all of your chords are 4 notes. Did you purposely do that? It might be the key to direct import of a chord sequence. What chord selection type do you use on your 700?

I have been able to accomplish what I wanted - create the chords in BIAB and get them into a 4X style as a chord sequence by playing the style using BIAB to select the chords. The resulting 4X CS midi has 4 notes per chord, the root 2 octaves (not 1 as I stated previously) below the chord, even though the BIAB midi file has only three notes per chord. Also, I have noticed that slash input chords are not recorded as such unless Bass Inversion is on. Makes me wonder if the chord type selection, simple, three-finger, etc. is also at work here.

Also, I have noticed that on some occasions, after I import a midi file as a chord sequence, my 4x locks up. Maybe a bug but to soon to tell with all I have been trying.

I should have time today to try your file and to experiment with the chord input type selection. Again, thanks for your interest.

Ron

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:46 pm

Hi to all again. I think I am starting to understand this a bit. When recording a CS on the 4X, all parameters for chord recognition are considered ... Chord Scan (Upper, Lower, etc.), Chord Recognition (1 finger, advanced, etc.), Split On/Off & Bass Inversion. Makes nothing but sense but was not obvious to me.

I created several test CS's using various chord recognition settings. The resulting midi files are pretty much the same no matter the settings, i.e. a root note and the chord 2 octaves above. Brian, your CS loaded and played just fine but it locked up my KB. I could play the style but I could not leave the style to go to another mode or the songbook. Same problem I noticed previously. I assume your CS played OK because all the chords had at least four notes and that the 4x interpreted the lowest note as the root. Not sure about this.

My conclusions:

1. Easiest way to create a chord sequence in 4x style from BIAB is to record the chord sequence with BIAB playing the chords for the style. I have had success with Lower Scan, Advanced Recognition, Split ON, Bass Inversion ON.

2. The 4x seems to "process" the chords being played or from BIAB and store them as a root note and a chord 2 octaves above the root. Not sure why but it must be a way to keep track of chord types. I notice that a D major chord is stored as a D root and a three note first position D major chord two octaves above. A D/A chord is stored as an A root and a three note first position D major chord two octaves above...not the A-D-F# I would expect to see.

3. A chord sequence can be imported into the 4x from a midi file if the chords have at least four notes??? Not sure about this one.

4. There may be a bug that locks the keyboard following the input of a midi chord sequence. This does not happen every time, but often enough that I think it should be reported. Has anyone else experienced this? Pete, if you are monitoring this topic, please advise best way to report this possible bug.

Ron

Brian007 · Post by **Brian007** » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:50 am

Hi Ron,

very interesting, my Pa700 never locked up at all (yet)
CS created on the pa700 are indeed just 3 note chords, and ones imported from other software seem to have 4 notes, will play about with cubase today
and have another look at it,

All the best, Brian007

rikkisbears · Post by **rikkisbears** » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:55 am

Hi,
Not really quite sure what you’re trying to do, if it’s just the chords you’re after, possibly the simplest piano style you could find would be the best, or edit one of the biab styles down to something really simple.

Been a long time since I had my pa800 midied to biab, ie biab used to play the chords for the pa800 to follow, could playing across in real-time maybe be an option?

Bit rusty on what was possible. Would need to find some of my old notes.