Drum Kits: Problems and Solutions

[Nemydom]

I think it's a good time to create this thread here. Just a little bit of my background, so you all know where I am coming from.
I am 50, originally from Europe, but have been living the greater portion of my life in New Zealand. I always had a huge passion for electronic musical instruments and guitars.

Unfortunately, I am not a good musician, so my hobby heavily dependent on arrangers and musical instruments, which could compensate for my luck in music education (e.g Yamaha Montage thanks to a great arpeggiator). I actually can't count how many synthesizers, arrangers workstations I've had in my entire life.. From a cheap casio in 1990s to variouse Tyros models. From basic Korg and Roland to Kronos, Fantom G, various PA*X models, and so, so on. I am not mentioning my collection of Nord and other VA and analog synths.... because I always wanted the "perfect arranger"! Why? Because I need one to jam with! But my synths and guitars can't withstand s**t drums! I need the real (well sampled, but sounding like real, live) drums!

What is the ideal arranger? I have been looking for it for over 20 years, but now I was very close. A perfect arranger is pa5x Musikant, but with good drums! Yes, pa5x is almost perfect, but there are problems with drum kits, and it's related to quality and some other issues which I think we all can discuss here!

My goals:
-find and discuss existing problems with PA5x's drums and drum kits,
-discuss possible solutions,
-discuss how to create a good sounding drum kit using available samples
-create and share drum kits and drum samples among the participants
-and so on!

I'll post very soon what problems I've found so far other than the poor quality of the samples.

Please, keep in mind, that I live in New Zealand, but I am not a Kiwi, so I'm not going to be excessively polite! If I see someone doing unfair things on purpose, I will articulate it. Yes, that's right. Korg is giving us s**t drums on purpose. I don't know why. They have excellent, outstanding drum kits in Kronos. So they playing an unfair game, it's for sure. So let's be honest, they didn't deserve full respect. Let's discuss that as well, and maybe we find out why it's happening and how we can resolve that.

Welcome to this thread, I hope it will be very long and interesting )

[NETWORK1]

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[Nemydom]

One Solution for Thicker drums might be:
Exciter+Hard-Knee compression, in the drum track-Layer
Heres an example of different Drum-Solos

And to Finalize..........
This LAST Drum solo, was used in a Club-Track many years ago...
And even in the Final Mix, they Didnt lose their Power.

<iframe width="300" height="60" src="https://vocaroo.com/embed/187BgBIt3YPM?autoplay=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay"></iframe><br><a href="https://voca.ro/187BgBIt3YPM" title="Vocaroo Voice Recorder" target="_blank">

<iframe width="300" height="60" src="https://vocaroo.com/embed/1mWB9PkbCdRE?autoplay=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay"></iframe><br><a href="https://voca.ro/1mWB9PkbCdRE" title="Vocaroo Voice Recorder" target="_blank">

<iframe width="300" height="60" src="https://vocaroo.com/embed/1bBBBMDuref0?autoplay=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay"></iframe><br><a href="https://voca.ro/1bBBBMDuref0" title="Vocaroo Voice Recorder" target="_blank">

Thanks for your comment and demos, NETWORK1! Good start!

[NETWORK1]

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[Nemydom]

AUDIO-BANDWIDTH is another concept
that will determine a THICK or thin Sound.....

Very interesting information, thank you,
NETWORK1!
...
What I noticed, is the pa5x drum samples by themselves are of the pour quality. I sent the snare and bass drum into separate outputs, to process separately, using my digital console, Allen & Heath SQ-5.
Most likely due to my lack of sound-engineering skills, but I couldn't do them much better. Well, I manage to make them a bit more punchy, maybe a bit thicker... but they do sound "artificial". The reason for that is most likely what forum user pax-eterna.1 described in the neighboring thread on this forum:

...I was never a huge a fan of the "compressed" nature of Korg PA series drum sampling...

So looks like the samples are over-compressed, so we can't do much, by just involving extra eq, compressors etc..
I may be wrong.. please remember, I am only a hobbyist - so any kind of comments are welcome!
If we have a professional audio engineer on this forum, it would be awesome to hear their opinion about the PA5x drum samples.

.

[iOpus]

AUDIO-BANDWIDTH is another concept
that will determine a THICK or thin Sound.....

Very interesting information, thank you,
NETWORK1!
...
What I noticed, is the pa5x drum samples by themselves are of the pour quality. I sent the snare and bass drum into separate outputs, to process separately, using my digital console, Allen & Heath SQ-5.
Most likely due to my lack of sound-engineering skills, but I couldn't do them much better. Well, I manage to make them a bit more punchy, maybe a bit thicker... but they do sound "artificial". The reason for that is most likely what forum user pax-eterna.1 described in the neighboring thread on this forum:

...I was never a huge a fan of the "compressed" nature of Korg PA series drum sampling...

So looks like the samples are over-compressed, so we can't do much, by just involving extra eq, compressors etc..
I may be wrong.. please remember, I am only a hobbyist - so any kind of comments are welcome!
If we have a professional audio engineer on this forum, it would be awesome to hear their opinion about the PA5x drum samples.

.

You are a little late. we have been waiting for a year and a month for our basic necessities without an answer from Korg Italy (Korg Japan is something completely different).
This is a dead business and seek happiness elsewhere (ketron yamaha, roland).
Don't develop a dead horse topic.
Sorry, sorry for you and me and others who trusted Korg Italia.

[Nemydom]

You are a little late. we have been waiting for a year and a month for our basic necessities without an answer from Korg Italy (Korg Japan is something completely different).
This is a dead business and seek happiness elsewhere (ketron yamaha, roland).
.

I know what you feel, and can imagine how frustrated you are. At the same time, you should understand that some other people may be very happy with pa5x, as they don't need the lacking functions that much. Also, it looks like Korg slowly does develop pa5x, and lots' of the functions will be added soon. Well, "soon" is not the right word, but you know what i mean ))
Anyway... Please, if you have any comments related to the drum sounds or drum kits, you are welcome to post them here

[Nemydom]

Well, it's time to publish BUG number ONE here.

Here you go:

If the snare and bass drum are assigned to separate outputs, only a small portion of the styles/drum kits support that.

So for example, you send bass-drum to output 1, snare to output 2, and bass to output 3. All the rest are going through main L and R. In some styles, it works fine, so you can send it to separate speakers, digital console inputs, outboard fx, etc.

Suddenly, when you switch to another style, bass-drum and snare, both go to main L and R, while the bass still goes to output 3, but 1 and 2 are dead silent!

You immediately check the settings, and what a surprise! BD and Snare are still assigned to 1&2! You switch style again, and it may work or not - unpredictable. Well, depending on the style you select.

Most likely, this problem comes from the fact, that "Drum Kits mapping in Pa5X Factory Styles varies". But why the hell it does? What is the name of the idiot, who made the decision? I really, really would like to see his photo, and show my kids: "That's what an idiot looks like"!

Or maybe there is another reason for the problem? Was it like that in pa4x? I am not sure - I hardly used outputs 1 and 2 when I had pa4x and earlier models...

.

[NETWORK1]

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[Symposer]

I'm the owner of the brand new Korg PA5x, and also have an issue with drums. I can't get it.
If I choose drum kit (whichever, it doesn't matter, for examle Standard kit 1), it sounds awful, all samples sound like 100$ toy, however, if I open style editor and choose the drum recording track, the same Standard kit1, and VOILA!!! it sounds all good, with a good quality. What the hell? Korg is trying to full us, or what?

[Nemydom]

I'm the owner of the brand new Korg PA5x, and also have an issue with drums. I can't get it.
If I choose drum kit (whichever, it doesn't matter, for examle Standard kit 1), it sounds awful, all samples sound like 100$ toy, however, if I open style editor and choose the drum recording track, the same Standard kit1, and VOILA!!! it sounds all good, with a good quality. What the hell? Korg is trying to full us, or what?

Sorry, I am not getting what exactly do you mean by “drum recording track”. Can you please explain the same in other words? It is very interesting!

[Symposer]

Just open style editor. There are tracks to record: Bass, Drums, Percussion, Acc1, Acc2 etc. Choose the track to record drums. Choose Drum kit you like the best, for example Standard kit 1. Drum now pressing keys as you do while recording. Memorize how it sounds or better record the video on your phone. Now go out of the style editor and find the same drum kit and assign it to Upper 1 for example. Repeat drumming the same patterns and now compare. Does it sound the same?

[Nemydom]

Just open style editor. There are tracks to record: Bass, Drums, Percussion, Acc1, Acc2 etc. Choose the track to record drums. Choose Drum kit you like the best, for example Standard kit 1. Drum now pressing keys as you do while recording. Memorize how it sounds or better record the video on your phone. Now go out of the style editor and find the same drum kit and assign it to Upper 1 for example. Repeat drumming the same patterns and now compare. Does it sound the same?

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I need to try this... but what do you think? why it's happening?

[Nemydom]

This is an amazing video tutorial from @QuiRobinez
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8pqlua_bJ ... l-44A_K_ha" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share"></iframe>
I tried it yesterday, and it does work! Now my pa5x has audio drums in it!
I couldn't manage to make a fill - it doesn't work as it should, but it's only the beginning!
Amazing work, amazing tutorial, thank you, Qui Robinez!

-

[QuiRobinez]

Just open style editor. There are tracks to record: Bass, Drums, Percussion, Acc1, Acc2 etc. Choose the track to record drums. Choose Drum kit you like the best, for example Standard kit 1. Drum now pressing keys as you do while recording. Memorize how it sounds or better record the video on your phone. Now go out of the style editor and find the same drum kit and assign it to Upper 1 for example. Repeat drumming the same patterns and now compare. Does it sound the same?

No that will not sound the same, and it shouldn't.

This is different then in the korg pa4x, you have now full control on your pa5x over insert and master effects when programming your own styles and keyboard sets.

So if you want to want to solve that, just select the Use IFX and/or the use mfx feature before selecting a drumkit in a upper 1,2 or 3 slot.

It's all explained in my tutorials on youtube.
This specific problem your experiencing is explained at 04:58 (and how to use it in your user scenario)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EPOaP0Zib ... rMFEnd8AgW" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share"></iframe>