I am really sick of the state of the Pa5X

[fatih89]

I am not a musician but an engineer. I use keyboards not mainly as an instrument to make music but to program sounds and styles for others. I started programming sounds for plugins like NI Kontakt about 5 years ago and didn't touch my keyboards since then, since plugins like NI Kontakt gave me unlimited possibilities and the programming capabilities even of the most advanced keyboards, including the Pa4X, were extremely limited when it comes to things like multisample-handling, expression, realism, effects (routing, sidechain) etc.

If you are only a living-room musician (no offense) these points are probably not important for you; great for you.

In the last months I bought different keyboards from different brands in different price ranges, because I wanted and needed a contemporary successor to my Pa3X (and Pa4X, which I don't own but have practically unlimited access to). While the cheaper keyboards in the 1000-2000€ range do not have the scope of editing options like the Pa-Series, I was surprised what simple and useful functions and tools these keyboards offer. Just to mention a few of them:
- playing WAV-Files directly from Pads, without loading/saving them into the sample memory, creating a drumkit and assign the sample to a key, creating a pad and editing the settings of the pad.
- crossfade-portamento
- *FREE* PC editor to manage sets
- Bluetooth Audio (I don't care about that tbh)

I am not talking about bugs (there are still a lot) or missing functions, which even the Pa80 had (hello Quick Record). My point is that the Pa5X is in terms of sound design and sound editing technically the same as the Pa80 - the foundation on which everything, Styles, Keyboardsets, Pads etc. is build on. Don't get me wrong. I like things like the insert effect sections and the finalizer (which is "bugged"), especially on individual drum parts. That's a great change which I wished since I had the Pa800 & Pa2X. But these things are like painting/masking over old walls that start to get moldy over time.
Besides my two recent threads here there are a lot more features and functions I am missing and EXPECT them in a flagship keyboard in 2024 (yeah I know, the Pa5X was released in 2022). I did not find anything state-of-the-art or innovative yet. Korg claimed they build a completely new system - that's bullsh*. The sampling and sound editing sections are still the same. The only thing that changed is the amount of OSCs and the "Legato Mode", which is useless since we can not fully utilize it with custom samples. The KMP/KSF sample format is old. The ability to import sf2-multisamples/banks is also not that new. It actually is also an old format (only mono). We still do not have a PC/Mac software from Korg to create our own custom samples/multisamples with the possibilities, they use in their own internal samples (offset, round-robin, ambiente) and to edit our sounds and create styles. We still do not have a piano-roll editor as an alternative and more user-friendly option to the event editor.
The time-slice function is outdated and not precise. Good sounding algorithms for automatic time-streching percussion/drum audio material exist for a long time and are easy to implement via software/OS Update. Why TF do we have to deal with this old time-slice junk which also sounds really bad (yes, it does sound bad!)? I can tell you why: because the OS is not "completely new".
The Pa5X does not have an audio interface build in (or at least not active?).

The list goes on and on.

But hey, we got an HDMI port!

This is not a rant and I am not bashing the Pa5X. It has some really cool features and also because of the new effect capabilities a really good sound. I am just very disappointed that after that many years (lets take the Pa800 as a reference, so 2006) in terms of sound editing and sampling nothing has changed. I am missing the innovation and creativity.

If nothing will change or innovative will happen to the Pa5X until the next model, this will most likely be my last Korg keyboard and therefore the last Korg keyboard for some musicians I work for as an sound and style designer.

[Bescki]

I am selling my pa5x. Nobody wants to buy it

[AntonySharmman]

You have explored only the surface of Pa5X engine and many of your observations are inaccurate !

- the finalizer is "bugged"
It works like a charm for hundreds of Styles I have created on board , it's just a matter only of proper settings.

- The only thing that changed is the amount of OSCs and the "Legato Mode", which is useless since we can not fully utilize it with custom samples
There are a lot of things that have been changed since your Pa2X , just explore them correctly , it's the best hardware sampler in the market and all
are utilized by 100% as factory resources concerning multi-samples , only in DK mode has the same limitations as in Pa4X that I described you in your
earlier posts , that might change in the near future.

- The time-slice function is outdated and not precise
It works excellent as in Pa4X and works very close to my latest ReCycle , but you must learn particles techniques to use it properly with manual parameters.

- The KMP/KSF sample format is old. The ability to import sf2-multisamples/banks is also not that new
Pa4X works with paired mono L-R multisamples , Pa5X uses real stereo format of a single OSC outside KMP format (2.5 times more polyphony than Pa4X) ,
you can only import them manually since they have not created yet this KMP2 format in order to import them but we hope that will be shortly addressed.

- Playing WAV-Files directly from Pads, without loading/saving them
The structure that Pa engine works , do not allow this to happen without streaming them from internal Nand Memory as with samples/MS and will not
happen under PaSeries ARM architecture and will not enter in technical details.

Another occupation of mine is Kontakt script developer for advanced and legato articulation for over 15 years , and I selected Korg PaSeries & Kronos
due to apply VST techniques of automation , legato & articulation of real instruments & orchestras in the best hardware sampler keyboards.

[fatih89]

You have explored only the surface of Pa5X engine and many of your observations are inaccurate !
I am pretty deep into Pa sound programming, or let's say at least way above average.

- the finalizer is "bugged"
It works like a charm for hundreds of Styles I have created on board , it's just a matter only of proper settings.
What I meant with "bugged" is, that if you change the style in the same player with different finalizer gain settings, the volume will jump for a fraction of a second. In some cases I had some custom styles (from another set) which were too loud, so instead of messing around with every channel and variation setting I used the finalizer (makeup) gain, which comes AFTER the limiter/compressor, to lower the volume. In that case when I changed styles the volume became very loud for a fraction of a second, which makes the finalizer unusable for such a scenario.

- The only thing that changed is the amount of OSCs and the "Legato Mode", which is useless since we can not fully utilize it with custom samples
There are a lot of things that have been changed since your Pa2X , just explore them correctly , it's the best hardware sampler in the market and all
are utilized by 100% as factory resources concerning multi-samples , only in DK mode has the same limitations as in Pa4X that I described you in your
earlier posts , that might change in the near future.
I know that there were and are a few changes. But for me these changes are not significant or innovative enough. Take into account the release dates of the Pa2X (2007) and Pa5X (2024) and also what technological progress we made within that time (for example the first iPhone was released in 2007), besides the fact that lot of functions were also removed.
The sound edit mode also does not utilize all functions when using custom multisamples.

- The time-slice function is outdated and not precise
It works excellent as in Pa4X and works very close to my latest ReCycle , but you must learn particles techniques to use it properly with manual parameters.
I have ReCycle and would LOVE to use it to make STEREO loops, since it is much more precise. But the only way to make stereo loops on ONE OSC is to use the internal time-slice function. Of course I could do a dual-mono time-slice file with ReCycle, import both multisamples and create a sound with TWO OSCs (panned L/R). Since this won't be recognized as a "Groove", the midi file generated by ReCycle needs to be imported e.g. in a Pad or Style. The idea itself is just so stupid. I want a more convenient option for such a task. It's not 2007 anymore.

- The KMP/KSF sample format is old. The ability to import sf2-multisamples/banks is also not that new
Pa4X works with paired mono L-R multisamples , Pa5X uses real stereo format of a single OSC outside KMP format (2.5 times more polyphony than Pa4X) ,
you can only import them manually since they have not created yet this KMP2 format in order to import them but we hope that will be shortly addressed.
That's exactly my point. Why can't we use the stereo functionality in a more convenient way? Why do I have to make the stereo multisample inside the Pa5X Sampler, which means the following:
- load every individual stereo sample
- create a new multisample, assign the stereo samples to the keymap and key regions
We have PC tools which do these tasks so much faster, easier and offer a lot more functionality (see e.g. Awave Studio or other tools). The Pa5X was released in 2022 and we still do not have the option to use the "new" (?) multisample format or a convenient way to create stereo multisamples?

- Playing WAV-Files directly from Pads, without loading/saving them
The structure that Pa engine works , do not allow this to happen without streaming them from internal Nand Memory as with samples/MS and will not
happen under PaSeries ARM architecture and will not enter in technical details.
Well, but samples can be accessed from the internal sample memory. So why not for example accessing such samples directly from the sample memory instead of going through this complicated process of making a drumkit and creating a new pad? Just give an option in the sample editor to flag the samples we want to access via Pads and that's it.

Another occupation of mine is Kontakt script developer for advanced and legato articulation for over 15 years , and I selected Korg PaSeries & Kronos
due to apply VST techniques of automation , legato & articulation of real instruments & orchestras in the best hardware sampler keyboards.
Then you should know how depressing it is STILL seeing such a lack of functionality and features in sound programming in the Pa5X coming from the almost unlimited Kontakt KSP possibilities. I am not asking for a feature like KSP, that would be ridiculous/overkill. I am asking for an improved sound engine/handling (e.g. crossfade portamento, custom multisample offset etc.) that would even work on a calculator. In that regard almost nothing has changed the past 20 years for the Pa Series.

You accuse me of false observation and inaccuracy but you contradict yourself. I have the Pa5X in front of me and also the previous models. Overall the Pa5X is not a bad keyboard, in fact it is probably the best keyboard we have - even with all the bugs it still has. But comparing it to previous models and models from other brands and also considering the development time between Pa4X and Pa5X, the development time of the Pa5X OS (from release to today), the history of the Pa Series and of course what possibilities we have if we look to the PC/Mac plugin world (what I don't ask for to this extent), I come to the conclusion that the Pa5X is at least in terms of sound & sample editing/creating technologically not up to date. It is a disappointment.

[AntonySharmman]

I do not accuse you , I also have Pa4X and just state the facts that you still don't get !

- Nope , there is no issue with finalizer and Styles that were made exclusively in Pa5X , I'm very skilled in PaSeries development !
It will surely happen with older migrated Styles in Pa4X from older models , they are not compatible even if they were transferred
and saved in Pa4X and then converted for Pa5X , this is the real issue of users that face system crashes , false translated old resources.

- What function does not work properly when using custom multisamples ? offset ? who cares , I never use this in advanced
sound developing even in Kontakt , all other features works as in factory multi-samples , crystal clear.

- I can easily work with on board time-sliced as in ReCycle , format is clear stereo (not pairs) and I like the new automatic export of
groove mid file and it fulfills my expectations completely , sorry !

That's all I have to add for the features , like it or not Workstation hardware samplers will be always 15 years behind VST technology
time have showed that since 30 years , be compromised of what is the best in the market and be creative of what you have as I do.
Don't you like Pa5X ? Fine , sell it and get a better that fits to your needs !

The fact is that Pa5X is the best sounding Korg keyboard and I have already pushed it to it's limits of 8Gb of resources with my latest
massive release of Sound libraries and styles that all work flawlessly and when new features will be added I will welcome them.

[fatih89]

I do not accuse you , I also have Pa4X and just state the facts that you still don't get my point !

- Nope , there is no issue with finalizer and Styles that were made exclusively in Pa5X , I'm also a Musician and style creator !
It will surely happen with older migrated Styles in Pa4X from older models , they are not compatible even if they were transferred
and saved in Pa4X and then converted for Pa5X , crystal clear !
You can reproduce this with internal Pa5X styles without loading any custom content.

- What function does not work properly when using custom multisamples ? offset ? who cares , I never use this in advanced
sound developing even in Kontakt , all other features works as in factory multi-samples , crystal clear.
I do care and lot of other musicians I know personally. I use that function in my own programmed NI Kontakt libraries and it makes a huge difference for a various types of instruments.

- I can easily work with on board time-sliced as in ReCycle , format is clear stereo (not pairs) and I like the new automatic export of
groove mid file and it fulfills my expectations completely , sorry !
No, you can not use the internal time-slice function the same way as you can do in ReCycle. Proof me wrong and show me how to add individual and precise slicing points in the Pa5X. Besides that, time-slicing is an old and simple technique. There are much better techniques and well working algorithms for time-streching different types of instrument types, without losing much quality (artifacts) or changing the pitch. Of course these techniques work in a different way (not MIDI-based). My point is, that I personally expect from a flagship keyboard to be more innovative and provide better and modern functions in 2024. Claiming that the Pa5X is build on a new system but still falling back on old techniques/implementations in every regard is a contradiction and false advertising. If you enjoy spending X minutes on 1 loop to sound "good" I am happy for you. I have hundrets of stereo percussion loops I want to use in my Pa5X. In terms of workflow and how much time it takes there is no comparison compared to e.g. a DAW. I am not comparing the Pa5X to a DAW. I am just pointing out that time-stretching - and time-slicing as it is implemented in the Pa5X is used for time-streching in a primitive way - is nothing magical and well implemented in todays software.

That's all I have to add for the features , like it or not Workstation hardware samplers will be always 15 years behind VST technology
time have showed that since 30 years , be compromised of what is the best in the market and be creative of what you have as I do.
Don't you like Pa5X ? Fine , sell it and get a better that fits to your needs !
I never said that I expect the full functionality of any VST/Plugin. But since you explicitly write “15 years”: I clearly remember that I first used NI Kontakt and other plugins back in 2008/2009, thats 15 years ago.

The fact is that Pa5X is the best sounding Korg keyboard and I have already pushed it to it's limits of 8Gb of resources with my latest
massive release of Sound libraries and styles that all work flawlessly and when new features will be added I will welcome them.
I am not sure if you are trolling or if you just don't get my point. The size of usable sampel memory has NOTHING to do with my criticism. Also, the Pa5X is not the "best sounding" Korg keyboard. I heard other Korg keyboards that "sound better". What does that even mean? I heard analog keyboards/synthesizers that in their territory sound awesome. I heard the Korg Triton with the MOSS board, which can generate incredible sounds - and guess what, it doesn't take any sample memory.

I criticize the Pa5X and Korg's communication and product policy from the view of a sound creator. I don't know if you missed it: the Pa5X was unusable for a lot of musicians for more than 1 year after its release. The Pa4X was released in 2015, i.e. 7 years of development for a faulty product with less features compared to previous models. The most recent OS update v1.2.1 is still missing a lot of features and still has a lot of bugs, some of which are critical in my opinion.

[Asena]

FATIH + 1000

One thing to say here, the ONLY KB that gives you much more for your money,
IS a smal brand from China.650/700 dollars and YOU HAVE Best ever made sampler on it. But it stops there, The ROM sounds are just made for 700 Dollars not more.
but in Samples and Sounds, It,s a Killer.(For that 700)
Not even AKAI or Kronos, Or ROLAND has it.

NO keyboard has that little extra on all Extras like it.
Like Importing SFZ/SF2 is the best on it.
To edit every single parameter is amazing.
And they give you the editor for free.
7 Updates from this LITLE fella, in 2 years of time.

And NO KB brand has ever given us such a PC/MAC program than this little fella.

FX section on PA 5 X is great, but depends what we compare it with!
Vallaha?
And Bugy as hell.
It hangs like 10 seconds sometimes.

So, for a Keyboard that we payed 4500 Dollars for, it.s stil way behind K7 or even free samplers for your DAW!

We maybe expect too much, after we pay like 5 K for it, no idea.

[AntonySharmman]

I criticize the Pa5X and Korg's communication and product policy from the view of a sound creator. I don't know if you missed it: the Pa5X was
unusable for a lot of musicians for more than 1 year after its release. The Pa4X was released in 2015, i.e. 7 years of development for a faulty
product with less features compared to previous models. The most recent OS update v1.2.1 is still missing a lot of features and still has a lot
of bugs, some of which are critical in my opinion.

My +10 cents on that and the only I totally agree but this was not my point since I'm also a skilled Musician.
I have already pointed all Pa5X remaining issues there http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... c&start=45

I tried to replicate your finalizer issue reducing in a style all volume tracks by -13 db and increased finalizer gain at 13db to reach the volume
of my other Styles and only in this case I heard a player glitch of nS where ST does not work properly as I had also found in Kronos ST.
In my development this does not happen because there is no real volume difference over 6db between Styles and I pointed out the size
of my project to show the huge number of samples & drum-samples and resources that are working fine in every aspect.

Without entering in timeline of sample to cut manually points in time slice of a Rex loop , both PaSeries simple editor & ReCycle are working
almost the same with excellent results try it harder , in a medium difficulty stereo time sliced loop of 92 slices which is actually the real limit issue
but I always prepare loops in external advanced sound editors since Pa2X age.

And finally , Yep Pa5X is the best sounding hardware sampler that Korg ever created ... no doubt at all for Musicians with deep knowledge.

[Bachus]

Why is it that the pro’s that have proven to be professionals in music making and creation are positive. While most that i do not know are quite negative?

From many of these posts i have learned that there are two sides in this argumen. With people like Q and Anthony much more possitive..

When i dive in deep, it almost feels like its mostly people from non western cultures that are being dissapointed?



So i guess that means for us Westerners that its safe to buy this keyboard?


The only thing realy worrying me is the slow pace of development, but then slow and steady progress seems to be a trademark of Korg Italy.

[D575]

The only thing really worrying me is the slow pace of development, but then slow and steady progress seems to be a trademark of Korg Italy.

This is why many believe Korg would do themselves the world of good by formally communicating...

Conveying progress reports periodically would not necessarily have to give away any intimate details, but...if slow, steady progress is nevertheless progress and the order of the day, then communicating this would, I am sure, be received positively, I for one would welcome this and I am sure any reasonably minded person would also feel the same way.

What ever has/is taking place in the background at Korg, communicating should not be seen as weak or problematic...

Good strong intelligent PR should be seen as a benefit, not a hazard

[Bachus]

The only thing really worrying me is the slow pace of development, but then slow and steady progress seems to be a trademark of Korg Italy.

This is why many believe Korg would do themselves the world of good by formally communicating...

Conveying progress reports periodically would not necessarily have to give away any intimate details, but...if slow, steady progress is nevertheless progress and the order of the day, then communicating this would, I am sure, be received positively, I for one would welcome this and I am sure any reasonably minded person would also feel the same way.

What ever has/is taking place in the background at Korg, communicating should not be seen as weak or problematic...

Good strong intelligent PR should be seen as a benefit, not a hazard

Good luck, changing this, it can be seen by many other Italian companies… think back to Roland Italy, Ketron, GEM, viscount, fatar, studiologic, and more..

There are some exceptions tough, like GSI and especially audio modeling

[D575]

The only thing really worrying me is the slow pace of development, but then slow and steady progress seems to be a trademark of Korg Italy.

This is why many believe Korg would do themselves the world of good by formally communicating...

Conveying progress reports periodically would not necessarily have to give away any intimate details, but...if slow, steady progress is nevertheless progress and the order of the day, then communicating this would, I am sure, be received positively, I for one would welcome this and I am sure any reasonably minded person would also feel the same way.

What ever has/is taking place in the background at Korg, communicating should not be seen as weak or problematic...

Good strong intelligent PR should be seen as a benefit, not a hazard

Good luck, changing this, it can be seen by many other Italian companies… think back to Roland Italy, Ketron, GEM, viscount, fatar, studiologic, and more..

There are some exceptions tough, like GSI and especially audio modeling

This has nothing to do with luck, but the shear volume of bad press PA5X has received from its awkward birth might/should make a company like Korg think twice....

Good can come from Bad if the desire exists.

[chelsea4023]

Hi,
Most of what is written above (quite frankly) goes above my head. I simply do not understand most of the conversation between fatih89 and Antony Sharmman.

That said, I have two important points I would like to make (well to me they are important). I purchased a used 61 note PA5X from a Dealer in July last year (exactly 7 months ago) for £3,300 U.K.

Already, I am suffering with the button issues that many owners are. I even had a friend ask me if I had dropped the keyboard at some stage due to the appearance that some of the buttons had cracked/chipped internally.

Secondly, the Dealer I purchased mine from is now selling a used 76 note PA5X (more expensive than the 61 note) for £2,900 (£400 less than I paid). Now I never purchased mine as an 'investment' but due to the 'well known' issues highlighted, prices are falling.
I feel genuinely sorry for owners that purchased their PA5X's brand new.
Chris

[SpOoNmAn]

I wish the prices would drop here in the U.S., they haven't budged once. If I spend 5k in a cpl weeks and the buttons start looking odd like some of you have noticed, I'll be a tad livid.

[AntonySharmman]

So i guess that means for us Westerners that its safe to buy this keyboard?

That's a rather good question and I will try to explain it a bit.
In Pa5X current OS state the term safe means IMO after deep research :

- People that intent to work with Pa5X factory resources and edits based on new resources are belonging in the safe area
all will work almost fine and will not ever face system crashes or instability while performing.
You can safely load only older factory Pa4X Styles and Pa4X bonus styles , nothing else !
I remind once again , Pa5X is not a continuation of PaSeries and compatibility is only with Pa4X factory resources.

- If you want to use your work and resources that were exclusively made in Pa4X without any migrated resources from older
Pa models Pa800-Pa3X , then most of them will be translated correctly with some minor translation flaws like CC# wrong values
in OSC & FX that can be corrected and will not lead to system crashes , so also this category is safe.
F.e. loading a Style made in Pa800 , it might play correctly but you never know of what it will cause later in system stability.

- If you intent to load a set with Styles, Samples and time-sliced stuff that are traveling for decades from arranger to arranger
up to Pa4X without deep knowledge to heal them properly , then remember that Pa4X might could reproduce them but Pa5X is
a brand new OS and it's not forgiving at all in false code & values in Styles and FX , gray and missing samples or enabled looping
in sliced short samples and other existing flaws that most of you were never aware because you did not ever loaded only a SOUND
bank to see windows warnings for existing issues that you will never see up to Pa4X when loading a whole SET.
In that case pa5X will be unstable and will continuously crash in random times while trying to reproduce those improper resources.
This is usually the category of non Westerners as you wrote Bachus...

- Pa5X except existing flaws in stereo samples , do not forgive acknowledge of poor sound developers some of you know of what I mean !
In General , do not load converted sets by unknown vendors , when purchasing resources be completely sure that were exclusively
made in Pa4X-Pa5X models with no migrated from older PaSeries resources and your Pa5X will perform properly.


Hope this helps