ZERO 8 HISS OFFICIAL POST - HISS ISSUES ZERO8

Discussion relating to the Korg D-series digital recoders, MR-1/MR-1000 mobile recorders and Zero4/8 mixers

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euklid.fox
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Post by euklid.fox »

ivanek wrote:you're not alone!
start the engine, other will follow!
could be great to join a collective reclam text made by zero8 users with the text petition. We could collect all updates we need, but only for the build mistakes i think, (like hiss, vu-meters, cue in live mode, level phones, in and out on the same track etc...etc....)
well done mate!!
:) Thanks! let's go! I wanted to post EXACTLY the same message lol, we should make a list and priority of the built in mistakes first and then update ideas.
for me they are like yours it seems:

A) BUILD IN MISTAKES/ISSUES:

1_Hiss/noize issue (the mixer should be able to operate at lower levels with no such horrible digital noize, especially when running in full numeric fw mode...)
2_vue meters (need calibration and need a db view on screen-should handle midi data to work in midi mode)
3_Cue in live mode (the cue and master bus should be avaible in I/O)
4_The phone level is too low
5_EQ calibration problem

B)DESIRED UPDATES IDEAS:

1_ customizable midi interface on the touchscreen (pads,slider we could label)
2_switch off the lighting
3_Choose what is midi or not in audio/midi mode.

rebump an overview:
euklid.fox wrote:[url=
http://xs.to]Image[/url]

Please every Zero user join the revolution and choose your 5 most important issues and desired updates to include in the pétition, then we ll be able to post it on www.petitiononline.com
ivanek
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:09 am

Post by ivanek »

cool...

only few things to add:

A) BUILD IN MISTAKES/ISSUES:

6_we should use the In and the OUT in time on each track. It works with Traktor scratch, why can't users do that in Ableton Live or with another software? Business with NI?


B)DESIRED UPDATES IDEAS:

7_preset for effects, we should be able to save and load presets for send, each channel and master.
8_midi feedback like faderfox modules! (a switch button is lighting, when i turn it off in the soft the button is still lighting)


Maybe we could give a deadline to collect all new ideas on that forum.
I don't know, end of november??
as22
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:12 pm

Post by as22 »

guys these are all great ideas but do you really think Korg is working on another update for us?
euklid.fox
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Post by euklid.fox »

ivanek wrote:cool...
Maybe we could give a deadline to collect all new ideas on that forum.
I don't know, end of november??
for sure I agree with your entries, let's wait others inputs till the end of november...

as22: well if korg doesn't plan to fix issues/bring new updates then we'll blame them all over the net on every audio forums... and believe me, it worked with Tc, if enough people take time to post bad comments on every first google page/audio forum at the same time it can make the buzz..
as22
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:12 pm

Post by as22 »

euklid.fox: that's understandable and I do hope they continue to issue firmware updates...I will keep my fingers crossed for all of you. I do love the mixer but a few tweaks would make this thing simply AMAZING!

Good luck.
djcl.ear
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:49 am

Post by djcl.ear »

Ok, my first post here. Couldn't hold it anymore. Hope it helps to achieve something.

QUESTION: Is the hiss ALSO present when using the ZERO 8 SPDIF out instead?
This hiss issue might very well be caused by a poorly designed DAC (Digital to Analogue Conversion) stage and using the SPDIF out bypasses those DACs.

If the digital unconverted out is hiss-free, then using an external DAC is an easy solution/workaround, at the same time retaining all the Zero 8 excellent "on the manual" features... I do wonder if the
written Z8 specs of S/N 85 dB also apllies to the SPDIF out route. Digital unconverted sound chains usually sports much better Signal to Noise (S/N) figures, over 100 dB.

Additionally, I wonder -in view of all the apparently excellent and unique Z8 design- why, oh why?, there is no a single attempt from users to dig inside the machine to see where the actual hardware problem lies. At this point it is very obvious that the issue will not be solved by software upgrades( otherwise Korg would had done it already)... and there is a pletora of DIY (Do It Yourself) websites outthere that might want to help or at least comment.
For this, first thing is to get the Zero 8 schematics, anyone?

Bear in mind that if the Hiss problem effectively lies in the DAC design/components, this part of the hardware is mainly analogue and in the last couple of years new, better, cheaper components (OP amps,etc) have been released and DAC upgrades are common and easily available from techs around the web.
Either an external DAC or a DAC upgrade could cost as low as US$200-300 and even this cost could easily be halved with a group order at the latter case. Wouldn't you upgrade your Z8 to get a 105dB S/N and improved THD figures?

It might need a concerted users effort but it looks more plausible than getting the fabricant to modify their already sold product...
euklid.fox
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Post by euklid.fox »

ok i need to check back but from what i remember i already tried to plug the digital out of zero to the digital in of a tc electronic konnekt, wich i know has good dac, and the result was quite, the same....the pb seems to come fromvery early in the chain,or alim , cheap composants...dk
Will recheck and post results

S/N 85 dB is already a vey low score for a mixer, but real is even worse i think...
euklid.fox
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Post by euklid.fox »

ok i need to check back but from what i remember i already tried to plug the digital out of zero to the digital in of a tc electronic konnekt, wich i know has good dac, and the result was quite, the same....the pb seems to come fromvery early in the chain,or alim , cheap composants...dk see the hp bus, there are clicks, umble, artefacts...
Will recheck and post results
wrote:Wouldn't you upgrade your Z8 to get a 105dB S/N and improved THD figures?

S/N 85 dB is already a vey low score for a mixer, but real is even worse i think...sad the audio side lacks, otherwise i must admit with time it's a really great midi controler...
djcl.ear
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:49 am

Post by djcl.ear »

Well, I dont have the pdf manual here, but the master out might have a selectable function pre or post fader in some presets menu.

Typically the SPDIF is set prefader, meaning the final signal amplification is done using the (analogue) op-amp... adding plenty of noise.
Just in case, try to set the master out in prefader mode before checking the SPDIF for HISS.

Other alternative source of noise could be the signal inputs, in case they go thru a not-good-enough ADC (analogue to digital) convertion stage. The easiest way to rule out this would be to input the ZERO8 thru Firewire input... hoping the logical way to build a digital mixer like this, keeps a 100% digital path inside and it is not truncated instead by some dirty-analogue-gain-stage (like many so called Digital mixers outhere).
Anyway I dont think this is the main hiss source since the actual known ZERO 8 workaround involves the master out levelling.

If anyone could check the ZERO8 digital path by inputing the ZERO8 using the firewire options, then set the master OUT prefader and finally check the SPDIF out (to an external soundcard, etc) looking for HISS... that could tell a lot.
Again having the schematics would tell also plenty of info
.
Thanks and happy fests
euklid.fox
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Post by euklid.fox »

ok, so ive done the tests: here are results:

the test:
1) 0db signal output from live to ch 01 in fw mode , no other sources. zero set to pre-fader preset (note that master doesn't have pre-fader mode)

results:
1)with physicall master out: high noise floor
2) with spdif out linked to spdif in of a tc konnekt: still high noise floor (note that the hiss is higher activaiting the spdif linked to zero on the tc than analog linked to other gears....)

in other words the hiss is still present in théoricall "full numeric" path transit
so...
djcl.ear wrote: Typically the SPDIF is set prefader, meaning the final signal amplification is done using the (analogue) op-amp... adding plenty of noise.

the spdif is pre, but the noise is still here. noise come from upper.
djcl.ear wrote: Firewire input... hoping the logical way to build a digital mixer like this, keeps a 100% digital path inside and it is not truncated instead by some dirty-analogue-gain-stage (like many so called Digital mixers outhere).
i was thinking so,...definitely it's not, i bought this unit mostly to run it in fw mode to get rid of cables and hiss ...WTF? it's still there.....design issue imo
why then call it a digital mixer....a bit of lying. very sad

...and so i can confirm sadly that spdif cannot be a "workaround"...

it's very strange, yup schematics could help, for me noise may come from the analog returns, it highly raises when opening, the pots, or sometimes got the strange feeling of analog inputs re still actives even in fw mode, dk, anyway a 100percent digital mixer should have quasi no hiss at all, wich is far to be the case...
-ePrHom-
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:59 pm

Post by -ePrHom- »

yeah really strange !!!

in my case, i record via spdif on a m-audio audiophile (on another pc) directly from the zero8 spdif output... the signal is perfectly quiet (no hiss, no strange noise...)
djcl.ear
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:49 am

Post by djcl.ear »

Euklid.fox Thanks for keep trying. I have to say that for a couple of days your report really lowered my expectations... If Zero8's 100% Digital path is efectively noisy, then any hardware fix or Do It Yourself (DIY) Modification (Mod) would be much more complicated. AND that would have meant that we users or prospective buyers would face much more sour choices.

However, -ePrHom- finds
in my case, i record via spdif on a m-audio audiophile (on another pc) directly from the zero8 spdif output... the signal is perfectly quiet (no hiss, no strange noise...)
lightens up e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.
Thanks for the turn of the year present.

The finding of Zero8's noiseless/hissless Dig Out, fits very well with the users extensively described Zero8's symptoms. So far remains to precise Signal to Noise (S/N) numbers, but in view of posts here, I would NOW fast recommend to all Zero8 owners check the SPDIF out under varied conditions. Plug it to a PC/Mac Soundcard, get a friend's Digital Sound processor with a SPDIF in, or even get your Zero mixer to an audio shop and test it there. Be careful about present hiss, because it could be located at any stage of the sound being monitored... check headphones, etc. It could even be product of the sum of units. (check everything Euklid.fox, including earth and electrical noise sources)

The good news is that if this is confirmed then almost any ZERO8 user could -easily- add to his/her DJ/producer setup a Digital equalizer with a SPDIF input and the same unit will feature fairly good DACs inside so finally you should get a clean analogue signa and additionally the EQ would provide control to level the signal coming out of the mixer.

This is important, since using Zero8's SPDIF Out most pbbly bypases the Master out gain, leaving little room for users to acommodate the signal to desired levels. Adding a good eq precisely solves that AND converts Digital to analogue.
Alternatively several good external DACs include gain controls... And since audiophiles evolve their gear almost yearly, there is a flourishing second hand market offering comparatively superior gear in terms of specs at very good prices, for instance check www.audiogon.com
/////////////
Nice to be discussing accesible solution choices... for as low as a few $ hundreds.

I guess we should create a new thread in this forum. Happy festivities
:)

After a too optimistic post because it is the first time I see a usable Digital DJ mixer/producer tool like this... accesible, so I added text in brown font colour.
...sadly it seems that it's not for all. Not yet. Euklid.fox seems to be one of these cases.
Have we checked which serial numbers show Firewire (FW)-to-SPDIF hiss? path (Fw-SPDIF)?? and which serial numbers have NONE, zero HISS at least in this same Fw-SPDIF mode???
I have not read the 8 pages of this thread (sorry for that) but is it possibly Euklid.fox case is just one-off anomaly? Perhaps a malfunction or is it a design/implementation problem happening to several users..?
Discerning this is important and I cannot see a better way than testing & checking Zero8 in different connections AND SHARING THE RESULTS HERE. If there is enough users interested, we could create an specific new thread, would we?
euklid.fox
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:25 am

Post by euklid.fox »

mmmm a bit embarassing:
my laptops all had earth pb i made a special no earth plug a long time ago but i made the test with the wong cable!!!!noise was drasricly raised by the earth so results were not valid!!! shame on me it's 6 month i believe this unit has noize, in fact i had the wrong cable!

the good news it that the sound is a bit improved using spdif (in my case better clarity wih tc), and finally i rediscover this unit has very descent sn rario if running hot enough
., so better put the master swirch on-10db with the master pot fully opened than +4db with pot little opened, also lappy users unpugg your earth, disable wii and bluetooh, and you should hear no hiss at descent levels.

oops i got o make my apologies to korg
(but still ear the outide dac are not the best, but spdif workaround works:

what u say is wha im acualy doing: zero spdif out to tc konnekt spdif in wich has build in no latency eq comp, limiter and i set the master out there. very good results...
ps i have to switc to te defence: zero have descent hiss, even on normal outputs, go for it...
hakankan
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:05 am

zero 8 hiss sound

Post by hakankan »

hello i have korg zero 8 mixer. i get hiss sound to much to master xlr output how can i fix it anybady know pls help me ? i update os already
my power amplifier is not very bad quality product maybe for the this hiss sound.
what kind brand power amplifier for zero 8 ? anybady know?
as22
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:12 pm

Post by as22 »

set your master to -10db on the Z8 and adjust your amps levels first... and then adjust your Master Output on the Zero8...this should help.
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