What's the reason you DIDN'T buy a Kronos?

sani · Post by **sani** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:12 pm

clipnotic,
yes, I use my keyboards just for live gigging. I do that because the workstations can't compete with what you can get with the software. It's not just a matter of features. I simply prefer to work rather on a 24" screen instead of a 9" or whatever size.
But, the workstation per se IS FINISHED. Missing features don't make it unfinished. Neither a particular software such as cubase or sonar or logic is finished per se.
I accept that somebody won't buy a Kronos until the editor will be released. But I don't accept that a vst editor makes the Kronos as a product unfinished.
In the studio I was working for almost 15 years with keyboards which didn't have a vst editor at all. And yet I was still able to integrate it into the software even without a dedicated editor. It just requires a couple of steps more until the editor arrives. I for example have a Fantom G. It's finished. It has a vst editor. It's just that Roland gives me a list of compatible software. That software is now 3-5 years old. Is pro tools on the list? No. Is the latest cubase on the list? No. Is the Fantom G a finished product? I would say yes. Mostly. Roland simply tells me that their editor doesn't work with some kind of software. They say that the software is not compatible with the Fantom!!! I would say the other way around. Would it be better if Korg delayed the release yet for another month just to get that damn editor out? I would say no.

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:19 pm

Yes you're right! I understand your point ... with my bad english - Really!

But why does Korg makes a big hype "we've developed a fat production tool" if it is only a live keyboard and sorry 3.000 EUR in Germany for a live keyboard ...? Yes the Kronos sounds great but come on ...

The live keyboard is finished you are right!
But the production tool will never finish?

And I think it's not good that people here always compare with the other manufacturers because Korg could be a very very great manufacturer!!!

I write all this here because I hope, Korg will develope a real production tool in the future because I think they can do this!

If you would have the possibility at the Kronos to connect a 24" monitor and have a professional sequencer, too - you could use the Kronos as an alternative pc / DAW!
And THEN you wouldn't need a plugin, too!

And for a workstation with this features - send me the paypal link I buy it!

sani · Post by **sani** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:40 pm

clipnotic wrote: But why does Korg makes a big hype "we've developed a fat production tool" if it is only a live keyboard and sorry 3.000 EUR in Germany for a live keyboard ...?

Why is it only a live tool?
Again. The editor is just not finished right now. You have the option to integrate it into any software sequencer without any problem. I mean, if you know how to work in software, you probably know how to make it work right now. Don't you know how to send program change data from a soft sequencer or how to save a song with programs and effects to be used in a software sequencer? I'm talking about intermediate steps until the editor is out.

clipnotic wrote: But the production tool will never finish?

Actually the answer is NO. The more advanced you became, the more missing and unfinished features you'll see. I have worked and owned most of the software production tools like cubase, sonar, logic, pro tools. I could write an essay about unfinished features for any of them.

clipnotic wrote:And I think it's not good to always compare with the other manufacturers because Korg could be a very very great manufacturer!!!

Korg is a great company IMHO. It is not perfect and I have some serious complains about some aspects of what they do and how they do it. I'm not a fanboy at all. But I like to compare them with others to get a perspective. We all work differently. You'll find people who adore Yamaha. They make fantastic sounding keyboards. And yet, they still use a pathetic performance mode with 4 parts. If you complain on motifator about a missing feature, a yamaha employee will tell you that there are workarounds or that you have some exotic wish. On the Roland forum I even heard a Roland employee saying that Korg manufactures their keyboards in China (probably with the intention to say how Korg's products are inferior). And at the same time Roland has the most stupid flaws in their keyboards that you can't even imagine. You have to work with those keyboards to realize that some aspects of the os are created by kinda brain dead people. And yet, they question the quality of products from the competition. Pathetic. I have never read a negative sentence from Korg employees about other companies here. I appreciate that very much.

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:47 pm

Yes you can work like this, that's the way you can work since years!

But then Korg can remove the sequencer for example ... and reduce the Price!

And why should I work with tricks or uncomfortable ways for 3.000 EUR if there are enough great sounding and much cheaper VST plugins available?

And I think the Kronos plugin is not the best solution - for me a fat sequencer would be optimal

RonF · Post by **RonF** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:53 pm

clipnotic wrote:Come on - if you would read all my replies, you would see which problems are holding me up to buy Kronos! It's not only the editor and the plugin!

But you need the the plugin for example because the Kronos sequencer is terrible and has not enough features to work professional with it! Did you ever work with Cubase, Ableton or FL Studio ?

AND YES IF YOU COMPARE WITH OTHER WORKSTATIONS, KRONOS IS THE BEST LIVE KEYBOARD BUT THERE ARE OTHER MUSICIANS AND POSSIBILITIES, TOO IN THIS WORLD !

And for me the sequencer is not finished, too!

Yes, I have used all of the major PC DAW's. They are great. None the less...I am a hardware guy, especially a hardware sequencer guy. I MUCH prefer to use hardware over software, even though clearly a software DAW has a deeper feature set and 'easier' editing. But there are other considerations which make hardware better for my compositional style, and my inspiration.

If you are a software DAW guy....I totally respect that...but then I don't see why you would be looking at the Kronos sequencer with much interest or concern if that is the case. The real question is, therefore, how does the Kronos sequencer compare to any OTHER hardware sequencer? To wit, the Kronos is very capable and very good in most ways. It is inferior to, IMO, the Fantom G sequencer in some important ways....but then, the FG has much less of interest TO sequence in its internal sounds. Other than that....I don't think any other workstation sequencer is so significantly superior to the Kronos, and I have or have used most of em. Taken from that perspective, if your standard is to have these high expectations for the sequencer....I'm not sure there is a keyboard workstation on the market (today) for you. You may be better off with a laptop, some VSTi's, and a controller.

OR.....look at a stand alone hardware sequencer. I just picked up a Roland MV8800....not for its sampling capabilities (rather sample on the K), but strictly for its sequencer experience. This thing absolutely rocks, and is the closest hardware experience made to date to a software DAW. Pair this with a Kronos, and the rest of your gear....you will not look back. You can still use the Kronos 16 track audio recorder in sync with it...and have a very powerful system. Its all in your expectation and perception, my friend.

I know the M3 sequencer was better than the K in a few key ways....but again, you have to look at a keyboard as a whole. The M3 pales in comparison in many OTHER ways to the K. Would it be nice have it all....of course. I wouldn't mind if a full M1 and Trinity were included as Engines too. But it certainly doesn't designate the Kronos as "incomplete". It just has a different feature set than an M3 or a Fantom G. Given those feature sets.....I would take a Kronos any day of the week. I own all three of those keyboards btw.

sani · Post by **sani** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:08 am

clipnotic wrote: And I think the Kronos plugin is not the best solution - for me a fat sequencer would be optimal

A fat sequencer? I see cubase 3/4 in your signature. So I suppose that you know that compared to what a software sequencer offers you, ANY workstation sequencer is just a pathetically joke. It's not the fault of Korg/Yamaha/Roland/etc. It's just hardware vs. software. Buy a workstation for the sounds, but not for the sequencer. It is not capable to finish any radio ready song except for some dance/electronica tunes.
Would the lack of sequencer make the Kronos cheaper? I doubt. Just look at the JP80 from Roland. It costs the same as the Kronos-73. With no sequencer, without 16 parts, with a quite limited sound area and with no editor that you can integrate into software.

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:09 am

@RonF:
That's a good question why I'm interested in Kronos! My DAW equipment is very good and I'm very happy with it. I think my interesting has something to do with this hardcore Korg hype. In a german musician forum a very good musician asked for informations about the Kronos and we discussed about that! And then I searched for informations:

- read tutorials
- read something in the manual
- watched many Youtube Videos
- talked with a long time Oasys user I know
- talked with a german dealer
...

And I was a Trinity V3 and N364 user, too and hardware looks nice! But that's a long time ago! OK my woman loves the EMX SD very much

So and with every information I got about this Kronos production tool - I found missing features (compared with my equipment) and I thought it could be great to look at this forum here, too!

And here I found this thread and thought I write here why I don't buy the Kronos ... based on the informations I found! That's my way to check out before I buy something ... and then a big discussion started here

Sequencer:

I'm sorry but a sequencer without a piano roll for example is not a sequencer! I'm not Richard Clayderman - I make mistakes and have to fix them comfortable and fast!

If I would buy a new workstation I want a better sequencer or the same but not a poorer like in the previous version! OK, if we think the Oasys as the previous version .... you are right!

But that looks for me like a piss-take?

But Thank you for the tip Roland MV8800 I will look for it, too and yes you have a great hardware setup !

@sani:
OK if they would offer a rack version of the Kronos for the half price - I would buy it for the sounds because I have masterkeyboards and hardware controllers enough here, too!

And I'm not a big Steinberg Fan - Cubase 3 and 4 was full of bugs - I don't use them anymore. Meanwhile I mostly work with FL Studio 10 and sometimes with Sonar 8 and Melodyne ...

And all the DAWs have mostly more features I use but this Kronos sequencer has far too few!

And if I reduce the Kronos only of the great sounds it has - 3.000 EUR are too much and why have we pay that in germany?

But now it's resolve:

Both of you confirmed what I think:

1.
the Kronos sequencer is poorer than the M3 sequencer which had more nice features I think - so the Kronos sequencer is obsolete?

2.
the Kronos is not an alternative to a good pc or mac DAW and VST plugin setup? - so the Kronos is not a professional production tool?

3.
And if you have good masterkeyboards and controllers and a nice DAW you only need the sounds of the Kronos?

Right? - That's what I said, too? And are this sounds worth 3.000 EUR?

CfNorENa · Post by **CfNorENa** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:05 am

Just to add a bit more here. I made three lengthy visits to GC this week, and have had the opportunity to play the Kronos pretty extensively, and to do some systematic A/B comparisons with the Motif XF. To me, the XF sounds better in almost every way -- thicker, fuller, deeper, richer, more organic, more "present." Believe me, I never thought I'd say that. I've been a Korg workstation user all my life. But I left my sessions with the impression that the Motif was a "mature" instrument, solidly built, and very well designed for making music (or, rather, the sort of music I want to make), while the Kronos struck me -- I hate to say it -- as somewhat gimmicky, toy-like, and, by comparison with the Motif, a bit thin sounding.

Not trying to stir up trouble or troll here. These are just my honest reactions after playing each board with an open mind.

I should also add -- and this is pretty important -- that if I were only going to have ONE keyboard, I'd choose the Kronos in a heartbeat. But I have my analog and VA side already pretty well covered, so one of the K's main selling points, the nine engines, is less relevant to me and my needs.

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:51 am

> To me, the XF sounds better in almost every way -- thicker, fuller, deeper, richer, more organic, more "present."

Interesting. I will have to take the time to set up the keyboards next to each other and check this out. The Motif series does sound good, but I'm not sure if I notice any lack of depth with the Kronos. It sounds fine to me, but maybe right along with the Motif, maybe.

I do think the Kronos sounds very rich and has pads that the Motif could only dream about.

My friend is bringing his XF to one of my gigs. I will compare then - in the meantime I have an S90ES which I think sounds very good, along with the PC3.

For live, right now - for general purpose gigs, I don't think anything beats the PC3. The layering is superb. I would need 3 Motifs to sound like my one PC3.

franzlp · Post by **franzlp** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:57 am

I guess I am looking at this discussion and stepping back to see the forest instead of the tree... I see a lot of nitpicking and complaining and absolutist statements that workstations will be no more and that computer DAWs are practically the only way to generate successful music. We really don't look back just several years ago when DAWs and sequencers were etiher a pipe dream or a luxury in any musician's thoughts. Our musical and keyboard mentors did not for the most part have the "gravy" we so complain about today yet they produced music as complex, memorable and challenging because they didn't worry about how good a sequencer was laid out or what flavor of DAW supported what feature. They honed in on musical skill which often is missing today because we rely on a "hit" that is based on a high percentage of automation rather than skill. I can look at the classic hits of Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd, and even more pop orientated groups like Asia. The sequencer and the PC were not dependencies or rather crutches like they are today. No one serious is going to consider "grand" hit a piece of music that you preset in a live situation on a DAWs sequencer or with"perfect" sounds. People want to see that something great is performed with a skill-set that is developed from being able to perform music and not your programming skills. DAWs and high end sequencers may have a place today but I would rather see a musician play magnificently than pushing buttons to trigger a trance sequence. It's like saying I don't want to learn cursive because I use a computer keyboard. It's rather embarrassing not being able to sign your name properly. Let's remember that it's an instrument first and technology second.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:41 am

This thread makes an interesting read for me.

Years ago, just after OASYS was released, I commented in the OASYS forum that I thought it was overpriced for what it offered, and that I could do much more for much less cash outlay with my Macs.

In return, I was immediately pounced upon, attacked, ridiculed, and accused of trolling - not only by the usual suspects (certain diehard fanboys who are still here), but by certain Korg employees as well. It was continually alleged that I was posting under multiple user names, again by both fanboys and Korg employees... every trick in the book was implemented in attempts to invalidate my opinion.

Sharp and Daz eventually intervened to confirm that I had only ever posted under the user name ricky recordo. Shortly after that, I made a decision together with Sharp and Daz to remove myself from the forum

Seems to be a good debate on the topic again with Kronos, which cost less than half of what OASYS cost... and Kronos does more.

I can still do way more with my Mac than i could ever do with a Kronos.

Just sayin'

CfNorENa · Post by **CfNorENa** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:47 am

aron wrote:I do think the Kronos sounds very rich and has pads that the Motif could only dream about.

I agree with both points.

In fact, the truth is that all the flagships from the big 3 (plus Kurzweil!) sound excellent, and you can make fantastic music with all of them. And who am I kidding? I'm pretty sure I could get by with an older generation workstation and a low-end VA and have everything I could ever need.

But for reasons that I don't fully grasp, the Motif is really appealing to me right now. But I think I'd better wait before dropping the money on it. As I said, I have been a Korg workstation user all my life, and I better be SURE about changing "teams" at this late stage...

Kontrol49 · Post by **Kontrol49** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:35 am

RonF wrote:OR.....look at a stand alone hardware sequencer. I just picked up a Roland MV8800....not for its sampling capabilities (rather sample on the K), but strictly for its sequencer experience. This thing absolutely rocks, and is the closest hardware experience made to date to a software DAW. Pair this with a Kronos, and the rest of your gear....you will not look back.

Beleive me Ron,You won't look back,I've been using this sequencer(along with MPC4K)For many number of years now,I'm also using a Fantom G which will be the sequencer for live use,I cannot see how Korg can continue to simply keep adding the same sequencer as they have been using since the Trinity days,without being aware of what else is out there,its both arrogant and ignorant to think otherwise,and why include it at all,why not simply make it as a Plug in,if you would like to use it then you pay to authorise it if not then you pay a little less for the machine,I'm sure most would prefer a machine with loads of engines as opposed to a machine with heavyweight synthesis and a s**t sequencer

I don't know whats up with Korg just thinking its ok to still add it into such a luxury machine and people are happy to say its OK,no its not....if your going to put an audio/Midi recorder into a hardware sequencing environment within the Machine itself then it should be on par with at least some of these hardware machines OS

I'm not talking about trying to compete with software alternatives,at least the MV gives it a run for its money with its editing and Operational duties,but just something remotely relevant for a workstation environment for todays needs for a Hardware power user,,the fantom G is at least a step in the right direction even if it misses some basic tools agasint the MV,whether its in a 5K Oasys or a 2K Kronos its not acceptable to include poorly developed sequencers,that were fine in the mid 90s,especially when older machines like the Triton had features they decided to leave off and having the attitude that most people probably won't use it so its ok to not develop it beyond what it has is an utter cop out,I would love to see a Korg workstation compete against sequencing hardware like the MPCs,with a plethora of engines in these machines it would simply be heaven

I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this ribbing towards Korg I'm one customer who has been there and had this with the Oasys,and its going to be the same with many users of the Kronos,I refuse to buy another workstation from Korg until they at least think about doing something more competitive in there sequencer methods

Its about time the big three players came together and developed something that has cross over points or the best of all worlds,its almost as if they are all aware of whats out there but are frightened of stepping on each others toes

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:14 am

Its about time the big three players came together and developed something that has cross over points or the best of all worlds,its almost as if they are all aware of whats out there but are frightened of stepping on each others toes

Play the Jupiter-80 or the V-Synth.

Kontrol49 · Post by **Kontrol49** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:07 am

Chriskk wrote:Play the Jupiter-80 or the V-Synth.

Yet to demo a JP80 but am more than interested,as for the V Synth,well owning a GT and XT model,have played it more than a few times in the past 3 years of owning them

I'm talking about coming together to create a best of both worlds in terms of engine capabilities and sequencing environments,its like korg make the heavyweight synthesis options(Kronos) and Roland create great sequencing options,and how it should be for a hardware workstation(can't vouch for Yamaha as have only owned an AN1x/EX5R but both were awesome sound machines)its the sequencers that let the Korg machines down,

It feels as if they are all sitting in a boardroom somewhere saying ok Mr Roland we are making a machine with 9 engines in,so you can make a machine with a half decent single rompler and great sequencer because ours is laclustre so that way were not making machines that are going to compete,why aren't Korg making sequencers that work on a similar spec especially in an expensive workstation they must be aware of whats being made elsewhere,I bet Roland are more than aware of the "Game changer"and given there sequencers on the fantom and MV would be interested in their rival for the Kronos...

Adding a sequencer half as good as the Fantom G or MV/MPC into a Kronos,then you got yourself one hell of a workstation to rival software....

its not just a few additional editors(seen on the M3)that need adding Korg seriously need to rework it from the ground up and look at what a Hardware sequencer should be as standard not simply a 16 track scratchpad with a few audio tracks added,although the Oasys/Kronos are mega synths they just feel crippled with what could potentially make them an all in one workstation with a half decent sequencer,there working environment could be so pleasurable using a touchscreen.