Tuning gone mad!

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Ive tried to record this happening...and the problem is so subtle that my iPad
cant really pick it up very well. As subtle as it is....it does exist.
I have deleted all my own patches etc....Then opened the factory folder and used the preloaded PCG to return things to factory preset situation.
Even though Ive done this, there are still two programs that Id programmed
myself from months ago. I think this lets you know how much I know about the Kronos...I thought everything would be as it was when I first got it...
I also only have one doubled sided cd number3 and no 1,2, which I believe are needed for a truly full reset! I cant remember getting 3 discs!
I went to Africana Brass.....played an A major chord which "sounds" just below middle C...the voicing was E....A. and C# (just above middle C) and there it was again, this "tuning up in the reverb tail"....9 times out of ten it can be heard...it helps if headphones are used...but because Ive got "tuned in" to this problem I can hear it quite easily. Ive turned all reverbs/delays off...and its definately happens as I lift off the note....it actually goes up a tone......very very quietly, but its there!...

aron · Post by **aron** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:26 pm

Are you pressing a pedal (sustain) ?
Do you mean you just play an A chord, let your fingers up and hear the pitch bend up?
I can't imagine what this could be.

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:55 pm

Hi,
Yes just play a chord using Africana brass...( this seems to emphasise the problem a little more than other sounds) lift your hand up and listen for the reverb tail rising in pitch...Play a lowish chord...sounding just below middle C.
thanks for replying.
niven.

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:25 am

Has anyone gone through the hell of completely reformatting their Kronos using the 3 discs?
Korg do warn against it.....and Ive found all three discs this could solve my problem without shippimg the Kronos back to the shop only to see it chucked around by couriers etc...
regards
niven.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:32 am

Please share a recording and/or a PCG before you do anything that drastic.

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:53 pm

Thanks for your concern SanderXpander, I wont go down that route until all avenues have been explored. I have already deleted my own work and loaded
the factory PCG...But even on korgs Africana Brass patch, I can still hear this "rise" at the end of a chord. Funnily enough, its become quite hard to hear it on other patches...but its still there.
Could I ask you to play a chord using the Africana patch (using some headphones) and listen to the tail of the reverb for this rise in pitch?
Thats if youve still got the patch on you kronos!
regards
niven.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:48 pm

I'm not sure if I have the chance very soon, I'll try to remember. On a synth brass I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of the programming. I'm confused though because you said you've tried it with all fx off but you talk about the reverb tail.

If it's really in the reverb, have you tried a different reverb?

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:32 pm

Hi,
Here are links to some dropbox recordings...I dont quite know if theyre good enough. I find it quite hard to hear the problem with these recordings...so headphones would be best! Through speakers, somehow the room acoustics emphasise the " tuning shift" just after the ending of the sound...it is very quiet but very annoying when youre tuned into it.
To help Ive slowed down one or two sounds...It sounds like theres a sort of modulation going on...because sometimes theres no shift.
But the brass sample, the last recording, actually highlights that there is some internal detuning because it is actually out of tune with itself! It just a simple A major chord, but if you list to the middle of the chord there is a definate dissonance happening. Be careful of the volumes...but they do need to be played quite loud to be able to hear the shift at the end of each example.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i0w6qeh81rbxnr6/xlop.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ezobrom0qbkph ... w.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tb0f9tw6cxxj3g/log.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztwmzi1ewrf4v ... d.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cuk66v2vjklxs ... g.mp3?dl=0
regards Niven.

DeltaJockey · Post by **DeltaJockey** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:13 pm

You're right, it is hard to hear.
Are you sure there's no chorus effect causing this? Chorus detuning can also cause the effect you are talking about.

aron · Post by **aron** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:30 pm

For the percussion instruments, I almost feel like that pitch rising is correct. Like an guitar, the initial pick can be "out of tune" with the sustain segment. This really common when tuning stringed instruments and you can see it on the strobe tuner.

For the brass sound - it could have a pitch envelope. In any case, it's so hard to hear on your examples that I guess your room is really exaggerating the pitch change. I hear it but it's so slight over here.

aron · Post by **aron** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:33 pm

Play an electric piano sound or other type of sound that is not sampled (Polysix, AL-1 sine or triangle) and see if you have the pitch change on those. If they are not there, what you are hearing is a natural result of close-mic'ing the instrument. You are hearing things that you might not normally hear when listening to the instrument normally.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:56 pm

Niven8 wrote:Hi,
Here are links to some dropbox recordings...I dont quite know if theyre good enough. I find it quite hard to hear the problem with these recordings...so headphones would be best! Through speakers, somehow the room acoustics emphasise the " tuning shift" just after the ending of the sound...it is very quiet but very annoying when youre tuned into it.
To help Ive slowed down one or two sounds...It sounds like theres a sort of modulation going on...because sometimes theres no shift.
But the brass sample, the last recording, actually highlights that there is some internal detuning because it is actually out of tune with itself! It just a simple A major chord, but if you list to the middle of the chord there is a definate dissonance happening. Be careful of the volumes...but they do need to be played quite loud to be able to hear the shift at the end of each example.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i0w6qeh81rbxnr6/xlop.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ezobrom0qbkph ... w.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tb0f9tw6cxxj3g/log.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztwmzi1ewrf4v ... d.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cuk66v2vjklxs ... g.mp3?dl=0
regards Niven.

i have listened to these and I am not sure. Did you have reverb FX on all these ? The subtle decay at the end sounds like a touch of reverb

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:52 am

Thanks to all of you for responding. I was slightly afraid that your responses might be along these lines, because the problem is so hard to hear when recorded. This is why I dont really want to send my immaculate keyboard via a courier to a technician that will test it superficially and send it back scratched/ damaged in some way.
I'm very aware that percussion sounds do sometimes rise in tuning when they are skin based....but this is rarely the case when made from solid hardwood..i.e the kalimba and log sound. The effect recorded doesn't sound as obvious as it does in the room. In the room you can hear the effect from 6 ft away...The various rhodes sounds I tried, I find that I can hardly hear it...but again it is there, so its not a good example to post.
I've had the brass sound in use for at least 8/9 months. This was the first sound that jumped out at me as sounding weird...tuning wise. I immediatly shut down all effects, this makes no difference to the ending of the sound, it still rises...literally a perfect tone? Again referring to the sensible comment re percussive sounds rising, the sounds that sometimes do, do not rise perfectly in tune up a tone..The note A rises ever,ever so slightly to a perfect B!
So this, and I say this without being rude, negates the percussion effect syndrome, but many thanks for that suggestion.
I'm beginning to feel that this might be some kind of weird "key off" problem? But I don't know where to start looking for a way to check this side of things out. And why should it suddenly start to happen...out of no where...no changes were made to any sounds...global etc...I'll post some totally dry sounds, but I know the recorded effect will be very hard to hear....in the room no prob....I fear this is making me look a little obsessive...
But if any of you can point me in the right direction to tackle key off info I'd be very very grateful as I am for all your comments.
Many thanks to all.
Niven.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:07 am

I hear some weird things going on in the brass sample but not a pitch rise. There are some "thumping" artifacts in the chord itself as if you recorded it and then time stretched the sample with a bad algorithm. This could also cause the mild pitch wavering/chorusing on the reverb tail that I do hear. What I definitely don't hear is a whole tone pitch rise.

Not on the percussion tones either. There is a huuuuge amount of noise on those recordings for some reason but even so they sound normal to me. The reverb does resonate with the overtones more than with the fundamental, but that's as expected and you can probably change that somewhat by modifying the low and high dampness/roll off.

At this point I would also be inclined to blame your room. My previous workroom was basically a concrete box and it had a lot of annoying resonances. The good news is that these are fixable if you don't mind some acoustic padding or even furniture rearranging. The bad news is that I can't point you to a quick fix on your Kronos.

Niven8 · Post by **Niven8** » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:19 am

Thanks again SanderXpander... sensible, knowledgeable comments..
But nothing's been moved in the room, and the problem exists even more so when I'm listening on high quality closed headphones.
I think the only thing left now is someone guiding me towards some way of disabling this mysterious key off situation or I'm doomed to a long discussion with a dubious technician in the very near future. I will however...hopefully have a nearby Kronos to compare mine with when testing.
Again thanks...if, when I solve the problem I'll post the cure!
regards
Niven.