Importing midi, and converting to style problem

[miden]

The sequence must be programmed only in the key of c, or cm..

If you simply think of it as all you are recording is the rhythm patterns of the accomp chord/notes tracks you want to transfer it can make doing it a little easier to understand. Not so much the chordal/melodic movement or modulation.

Another thing to mention is that if you want to set up the patches as well in Cubase/Sonar et al, these MUST be on the first tick of the sequence.

The import function will not recognise patch changes within the midi file.

Dennis

[Sam CA]

The sequence must be programmed only in the key of c, or cm..

If you simply think of it as all you are recording is the rhythm patterns of the accomp chord/notes tracks you want to transfer it can make doing it a little easier to understand. Not so much the chordal/melodic movement or modulation.

Another thing to mention is that if you want to set up the patches as well in Cubase/Sonar et al, these MUST be on the first tick of the sequence.

The import function will not recognise patch changes within the midi file.

Dennis

OK, that was very good to know. thanks

So basically, i need to transpose the midi file to the key of C or Cm, before i import it. That brinng up another question though. If you make it a style in the key of C using this method of importing midi, are you gonna be able to use it in a song in a minor key later on? or you'll have some surprises again?
By the way, is there any limist for the intro parts as far as the number of measures?

[miden]

As far as I can tell, yes that's about it.

I only have a very basic knowledge of style creation, as I am predominantly a live and SMF player.. A lot of my smf's only have drums and bass, or in some cases drums only.

I have been programming and using midi for years but I have only recently started to get into creating styles from my midis as they seem much more flexible and more like the spontaneity of a live band, being able to repeat sections, or jump to different parts whenever you feel like it.

Most of my limited knowledge comes from the manual!! But if I can get to Rikki's level (in styles) I will be very happy.

[rikkisbears]

Hi,
no, your midifile can be in any key, just make sure you set the key & chord correctlyin the Main style recording page. , If your midifile is in G min Set " Key " as G. Set "Chord" as minor for each of the tracks. If you don't set the correct Key ( C, D , E etc ) & Chord( min, maj, 6th etc) , it won't play back correctly,.
There' s lots of chord types, minors, majors, 6th's suspended chords etc etc.
Only reason I mentioned C maj or min, it's the easiest to work with with ( for me anyway)

Also, make sure you set the correct NTT ( Note Transposition Type)either Parrallel or Fixed.
Fixed I use, if it's a chord, and it doesn't matter which inversion is played back when in arranger mode ie
I have a C Maj Chord C3, E3, G3. ( I use it for string pads or comped chords where the inversion doesn't matter)

I then play it back in arranger mode.
As a Fixed chord I'll get the following
C Chord: C3 E3 G3
F Chord C3 F3 A3
G Chord B2 D3 G3

If it's played back as a Parrallel chord setting
C Chord: C3 E3 G3
F Chord F3 A3 C3
G Chord G3 B3 D4
I use this setting If I need the notes to be played in the same order as they were recorded, but transposed to suit whatever chord & type I play in arranger mode. This setting is very neccesary for arpeggio's or phrases( tracks) that have a melodic feel.

You also need to set the correct NTT ( Note Transposition Table)
It's a bit of trial & error till you work it out.

The Info is in the 1.51 upgrade manual Page 3.
Under New Chord Types Added.
The manual came with the 1.51 /1.50 Upgrades or else if you have a newer manual than the original vers1, the info would be available in the Style Recording section.

Look for NTT Type etc

best wishes
Rikki

I think it was Rick who mentioned something about the key of the midi file before. My question is :

when you want to import a midi file that you want to make a style of, does it have to be in the key of "C" or "Cm", and then keyboard will automatically transpose it, if you wanted to use that style to play a different key?

Because i imported a midi file that was in the key of Gm, and after saving it as a style i noticed it doesn't sound right keywise. I mean i'm trying to use it in a key of Gm, but it's a transposed version of it!

[miden]

See, what did I tell you Rikki IS the bomb when it comes to style creation!!!!

Dennis

PS:
Rikki thanks for jumping in and correcting my post. As I said in it, that was how I had read the manual, sort of incorrectly as it turns out.

That explanation was really cool!! Thanks

[Sam CA]

See, what did I tell you Rikki IS the bomb when it comes to style creation!!!!


oops...rik is a female...well, no wonder how generous she is in sharing info..males normally don't do a great job in that department. lol

Dennis

PS:
Rikki thanks for jumping in and correcting my post. As I said in it, that was how I had read the manual, sort of incorrectly as it turns out.

That explanation was really cool!! Thanks

Yeah, you're right , he's definitely got his PHD in "style Creation". Thanks a lot for the info. It's such a big deal for me to get this working, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Ok, i'll do my homework on this, and will come back here again!

[miden]

LOL...Rikki is a woman!!!

[rikkisbears]

Hi Dennis,
sorry,
I didn't actually pick up on your post. I have a bad habit of replying without reading all the way thru the rest of the posts first.

Just realized are you guys referring to Intro's that have a chord progression ? ie as in Intro 1 of the Korg styles. If so, then Dennis you are sort of correct. Korg do suggest a minor key version & a major key version of the Intro but as far as I'm aware, it doesn't have to be based on the key of C.
Most of mine are because I'm not a very good player & Key of C is the easiest for me to play in.

When a chord progression is involved in an Intro or Ending I set
NTT settings:Parrallel & No Transpose for all the tracks.

The Intro still gets transposed when playing in arranger mode.
ie you've recorded cv1 in the key of Cmaj.
You play your intro as a C Maj Chord, it will play thru as recorded.
Play intro on an Fmaj chord , it will transpose & play thru correctly though sometimes the intro may start to sound a bit too high or too low . ( may actually be better to record it in the key you're most likely to play your style in??)
Even if you play your Intro with Cmin Chord, it will play it back as a Cmaj chord when all the tracks are set to Parrallel ; No Transpose.

Therefore you have to create CV2 based on a minor chord.

Usually for a very good reason. If you've ever tried playing back the minor Intro of a converted style,( that hasn't been edited) you'll hear why one should create a Major & Minor version of the intro. Some of the notes just don't sound correct. You end up with similar sounding problems if you just create a major intro & then try & play it in a minor key if your intro has a chord progression in it.


best wishes
Rikki

See, what did I tell you Rikki IS the bomb when it comes to style creation!!!!

Dennis

PS:
Rikki thanks for jumping in and correcting my post. As I said in it, that was how I had read the manual, sort of incorrectly as it turns out.

That explanation was really cool!! Thanks

[Sam CA]

ok, we talked about the available midi channels for style creation using SMF files before. I also found it in the manual. It's basically channels 9 through 16. i have this question though:

I did my intro midi file, and i imported it , created an intro for my style, it all sounds good. Now i'm doing my second midi file for variation 1. if i use (for example) a Flute for my "Intro" on channel 13, can i use a different patch such as a "pad" on the same channel for my variation 1 midi file? or i'm gonna be stuck with Flute on channel 13 all the way through?

I'm just thinking this should be possible, because these midi files are imported as different files, and each should be able to have its own program information at the first tick. Also, that will not waste a channel, if there's no need for that instrument for the next variation or whatever. Am i wrong?

[miden]

Yes, just make sure the patch change for the pad is on the first tick of the CV1. In fact you can have a different patch for each CV even though they are using the same channel.

Personally I reckon it would be far easier to just create the notes on your outboard gear, and then assign instruments on the PA itself.

At least then you can experiment as much as you like, without having to be constantly re-inserting different patches in a midi editor.
Just a thought.

Fortunately for me, pretty much the only tracks I will be importing for style creation are the drums.

I find that if you have the drum track sounding like the original song, with the correct stops and fills, you are 3/4 of the way home for the style.

As I am already used to playing lefthand basslines and right hand everything else the programming of styles on the PA should be relatively easy.

I have just not bothered too much before. It is after reading Rikki's various posts here and on other forums that style creation started to make much more sense to me as a live player. And midi files do get quite boring after you have played with them for a while.

Dennis

[Sam CA]

Yes, just make sure the patch change for the pad is on the first tick of the CV1. In fact you can have a different patch for each CV even though they are using the same channel.

Dennis

sweet! that's excellent. I was just checking the internal styles that came with it. There's one style that's called "funk ballad" or something like that. I played around with it little bit, and i noticed that some times when you hold a certain chord like minor 6th or so..it uses a different riff for Bass and on some other chords, you have even a different articulation like slap. Is this what you mean by different patches for different CVs?

I read the manual and understood what CV1 and CV2 meant for Intro1,intro 2, and Endings...for example CV1 could be set for minor key, but CV2 for major key..but i don't understand what CV1-6 means for variations and there was no example in the manual. can you guys elaborate on this little bit, please?

[rikkisbears]

Hi,
same thing except that you get 6cv's for variations instead of just the 2cv's for intro's fills & ends.

You can set your cv's up with whatever chord types you want ie
cv1 maj
cv2 min
cv3 7th
cv4 maj 7th
cv5 dim
cv6 6th
There are a heap of different chord types that can be used.
That's a lot of programming , but can you imagine the result.

Dennis, if you're just creating drum tracks, imagine it will no longer be repetative , the same 4 , 8 or 16 bar loop repeating over and over like we were stuck with in the psr's. You virtually had the same drum pattern when you played a major , minor or 7th chord , wheras with the Korg, even though you may not be playing a complete style, if you varied your cv's drum tracks slightly, you'd end up with drum tracks that don't sound static.

[quote="Assyrianpianist
I read the manual and understood what CV1 and CV2 meant for Intro1,intro 2, and Endings...for example CV1 could be set for minor key, but CV2 for major key..but i don't understand what CV1-6 means for variations and there was no example in the manual. can you guys elaborate on this little bit, please?[/quote]

[Sam CA]

Hi,
same thing except that you get 6cv's for variations instead of just the 2cv's for intro's fills & ends.

You can set your cv's up with whatever chord types you want ie
cv1 maj
cv2 min
cv3 7th
cv4 maj 7th
cv5 dim
cv6 6th
There are a heap of different chord types that can be used.
That's a lot of programming , but can you imagine the result.

Dennis, if you're just creating drum tracks, imagine it will no longer be repetative , the same 4 , 8 or 16 bar loop repeating over and over like we were stuck with in the psr's. You virtually had the same drum pattern when you played a major , minor or 7th chord , wheras with the Korg, even though you may not be playing a complete style, if you varied your cv's drum tracks slightly, you'd end up with drum tracks that don't sound static.

OK, I see what you're saying. But there are lots of other chord types, then what happens to those that aren't being programmed? If you play a
chord (for example an augment chord) that you hadn't programmed because the slots were taken by other chord types, then if you play that augment chord, which CV would be triggered within that variation?

[rikkisbears]

Hi,
any chord type that the korg is capable of recognizing, should be triggered regardless of whether or not you've created a specific cv for it. Remember you can actually get away with only creating 1 cv for any of the variations or fills , so just say the cv you've created is a cmaj, doesn't mean you can't play min chords or 7th chords or 6th chords etc
This is where the NTT settings come into the equation.
If you study the diagrams of the piano keys, you'll see what these settings do
ie you've recorded your track in CMaj
Your setting is Parrallel 5th
When in arranger mode you play C7th Chord
The arranger plays the Bb instead of playing the 5th note G

Your setting is Parrallel root
When in arranger mode you play C7th Chord
The arranger plays the Bb instead of playing the root note C

Just look at the diagrams. It's a case of picking what setting sounds best for that track.

I'm only guessing as to why we have 6 cv's instead of just the one.
Possibly to give a bit more variety, but maybe also for a more complex melodic type track, the ability to program more specifically for a chord type may come in handy. Not that the chord type won't be triggered, but that maybe you have more control over how it will be played back. As I said, I'm only guessing on this one.

best wishes
Rikki

OK, I see what you're saying. But there are lots of other chord types, then what happens to those that aren't being programmed? If you play a
chord (for example an augment chord) that you hadn't programmed because the slots were taken by other chord types, then if you play that augment chord, which CV would be triggered within that variation?

[Rob Sherratt]

If this is a problem, it sounds little bit more than just a software defect. it's sounds more like a serious problem to me. lol so, you think can you share some info regarding this with us? should it matter what the key of the original midi file is? is there a certain rule about the key of a midi file that we want to import to make a style out of?

The MIDI file you import has to be carefully prepared. Details (from the manual) as follows:

Prepare the Introl in a sequencer to play exactly the style intro you want, complete with chord progressions.
Bass is on track 9
Drums are on track 10
Percussion is on track 11
Accompaniments/solos are on tracks 12 to 16.
Nothing on any other tracks.
Any program change and bank select events have to be on the first tick of the first bar of the track.
Use the "initialize" parameter in the style the first time an SMF is imported if you want to import program changes.
The SMF file must be in the key of C before importing it.
The SMF file has to have exactly the correct number of bars (measures) needed for the Intro.

If your file sticks to the above rules, it should import OK. If there is a problem with your file then nothing will be imported. The only defect I can confirm so far is that if you export to SMF a factory Style Intro from the Pa2x and then try to import it as an Intro for a new User Style, some of the tracks fail to play correctly on the new User Style. I don't know why this happens. Someone from Korg would need to explain this.