Korg can update ROM samples in PA800/2X

LightGreen · Post by **LightGreen** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:47 am

Things that Rob has kindly explained to us do not contradict with the possibility of storing the so called ROM samples on SSD (i.e. internal flash) drive.
Most probably there are actual ROM chips with samples, but the size of SSD allows to logically override certain built-in samples with new or improved ones.
My point is that this is great because we can expect sound improvement with updates and this is natural for a keyboard of this class.
We are not in a position to demand certain samples to be added or modified, but instead we warmly appreciate any such update, because it improves the sound quality.
Best regards to all forum members and many thanks to Rob for the work he does in this forum!

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:44 pm

GANG!...I'M GETTING EXCITED HERE!
Looks like the existing samples that HAVE PROBLEMS can be FIXED!...
HOORAY!

Now just to get Korg to do it!

I submitted a fairly complete list of these problems some time ago (Rob knows what they are).

Maybe they have/or will take care of it soon.

I summary they were mostly just a few bad samples with too much variance in vibrato speed and some bad SAX sounds in a few key ranges (honking and bad timbre).

If these were fixed...and in addition to the new OS2 stuff...I would be a very happy owner (I'm already a happy owner).

Lee

musicrazy · Post by **musicrazy** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:43 pm

OK Rob. the piano sound on pa1xpro is loaded into the ram.I forgot that because i have my pa2 since november from last year and before i had the pa800, so i don't work with the pa1 a long ago. But i remember that there was an o.s. update with new snares on some new kits that are stored into rom. I know what rom means - but you know there is always a way to update. You have the example of a pc motherboard rom that you can update... of course we can´t do it by ourselfs because this is compressed data in a format that korg wont share with us. Maybe they only update with some short memory sounds (like a snare) because of the limited space on memory.
Best regards to all korg users.

Autumn · Post by **Autumn** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:38 pm

Hi,
May I ask a question, having read the arguments: If the factory sound are in ROM, why do we need to write protect them in Global - Media Preferences?

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:05 pm

Autumn,
Because the sounds are not the samples. The sounds use samples (multisamples) to make the sound. You are protecting/unprotecting the sound PROGRAMS which can be overwritten in SSD.
Lee

Reuben · Post by **Reuben** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:09 pm

I've been following this thread with interest as a humble pa1x owner. To answer the last question from Autumn the reason you may want to protect the factory sounds is this - you can't change the Rom sounds but you need to understand that there are far more "sounds" available than Rom samples. For example on the pa1x there are only 2 piano Rom samples (a simple Left & Right). But the keyboard can manipulate these samples with various settings such as filters, pitch, amp envelope etc to produce say 20 piano SSD settings. The same is true for many sounds (I think there are only around 4 string samples but many combinations and various settings to produce pages of different strings). You can overwrite these settings and therefore lose the factory settings if you write them back to a factory location.
Very likely the new snare on the Pa1x was just a re-setting (different filter etc) of unchanged Rom samples.
(I see Lee has answered your Q at the same time as me - much more succinctly)
All the best,
John

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:51 pm

As John and Lee explained, there is a hierarchy of data structures in which the sounds coming from a Pa keyboard are generated:

a) Programs and Styles - which contain between 4 and 16
--- b) Sounds which contain many
------ c) Multisamples which contain many
--------- d) factory samples in ROM and/or
--------- e) RAM User Samples

Only (d) factory samples are in ROM, everything else is in SSD flash disk including the RAM user samples which are copied from Flash Memory to RAM before they can be played, because Flash Memory is too slow.

On the question Alex asked of how Korg can replace Factory Samples eg Percussion Samples when they are in ROM? This is just a theory ...

There is a small amount of system RAM internal to the Pa1x and Pa800 and Pa2x. It is normally used for buffer space for I/O. However it is possible for Korg to deliver small samples such as a single percussion sample into SSDF Flash Memory that load and play from system RAM. But I don't think they could do a whole instrument this way without jeopardising the other functions that the system RAM has to be used for (eg MIDI I/O, USB interface with Pen drives, display refresh, key scanning and LED status etc).

Like I said the last para is just a theory ... but if anyone says that the Pa keyboard ROM contents can be changed then I will give you a billion to one odds with any money you choose to wager that you are wrong!

It is possible to modify a factory Sound that originally used ROM samples so that it will in future use RAM based samples. But that does not alter the fact that the ROM samples themselves can not change.

Best regards,
Rob

musicrazy · Post by **musicrazy** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:07 pm

OK Rob. That explains how korg added some new samples. But if they overuse this option we will have problems because the buffer will be too small.
You earned More respected from this enthusiastic fan.

I'm always learning, and happy with it.

Best Regards to all

galettouille · Post by **galettouille** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:06 am

Hello Rob!
Thank you for your explanation, I understand how korg has done for the snare sample. I already knew that Korg can't add anything in ROM and wondered how they did for this snare sample.

Hi Reuben! If I say that the snare sound was a new sample, please believe me : I know the difference between sample and sounds. Do you know that in PA1x/PA2x some multisamples are'nt used at all? For example in the PA1x there is a bandoneon multisample and there is a bandoneon sound. The bandoneon sound does'nt use the bandoneon multisample. No sound uses the bandoneon multisample.
Best
Alex

korgkbplayer · Post by **korgkbplayer** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:50 pm

hi
sorry guyz, i just cant get the point of this discussion
dunno about the rom chips, but the large os+res file is stuffed with samples. one can check that by opening it in a wave editor as a raw sample file. there so many samples in in, but why does that surprise anyone? if you got an mp3 flash player and ever did a firmware update, you know what i mean.
cheerz !

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:27 pm

korgkbplayer wrote:hi
sorry guyz, i just cant get the point of this discussion
dunno about the rom chips, but the large os+res file is stuffed with samples. one can check that by opening it in a wave editor as a raw sample file. there so many samples in in, but why does that surprise anyone? if you got an mp3 flash player and ever did a firmware update, you know what i mean.
cheerz !

So - would you like to accept my wager at a billion to one odds that the ROM contents can not be reprogrammed? How much would you like to donate to my retirement fund?

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:51 pm

Rob....No way hose'
ROM 'IS' ROM.

EEPROM = different story..wish they had not used ROM!

Hey...I am trying to find out where I can see which actual samples are assigned to which note ranges in sample mode.

I find the multisample assignment , but not the actual samples assigned in ROM to specific note ranges.

What am I missing?? I want to experiment with different actual sampe assignments and alsofind out why some sounds have problems on certain note ranges.

Thanks,
Lee

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:36 pm

Hi Lee,

Lee wrote:EEPROM = different story..wish they had not used ROM!

If they had used EEPROM (SSD and pen drive disks are similar to EEPROM) then all samples must be copied to RAM before they can be played. This would add to the system start-up time. Personally that is a compromise I would have preferred to live with. Example: My M3 loads over 400 Mbytes of samples from USB SSD memory to RAM in about 2 minutes each time it powers up. The "factory samples" on the M3 are completely upgradeable because they are stored in SSD and are copied to RAM on start-up.

Lee wrote:Hey...I am trying to find out where I can see which actual samples are assigned to which note ranges in sample mode. I find the multisample assignment , but not the actual samples assigned in ROM to specific note ranges. What am I missing?? I want to experiment with different actual sampe assignments and alsofind out why some sounds have problems on certain note ranges.!

Select the Sound you want to examine. Press Sound, then Record. Then press Menu and touch the Multisample icon. Then read the Pa2x Advanced Edit guide pages 38 onwards! It gets complex from here ...

Best regards,
Rob

Autumn · Post by **Autumn** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:07 pm

Just to say thanks to Reuben & Lee - I understand the sound/sample system much better now.

Best regards
David

looo · Post by **looo** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:43 pm

I still cant realize what does cause "clean" PA800 to boot so slowly (nearly 1 minute) while "Loading factory resources..." phase takes lion's share of that time. And having 256 MB of SSD onboard looks unjustified provided 128Mbytes of non-programmable sample ROM is installed on the mainboard.
Any ideas?

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