Karma on OpenLab - THE nail into the coffin of OASYS

[Gaingreen]

I have played on both keyboards, and the Oasys is far better for a real keyboard player. These new Neko's are DJ machines IMO. I dont like VST, I like real sounding synthesis. I have a M3, but I one day hope to afford an Oasys. They are 2 different beast. Most people are not buying the Oasys SOLELY for the Karma. No 88 keys from Open labs also. Oh well I love the Korg sound so I am staying and they have been in the game much longer.

[Kevin Nolan]

I'm breaking my own rules here. I find the OASYS wonderful and am incredibly happy with it; and usually do not sit in anticipation of updates and upgrades. But it's not lack of upgrades than now worries me but the shift of Karma to OpenLabs.

I'm gonna speculate here, but I don't think I'll be too far off.. This is what happens when a company like KORG doesn't want to have exclusive rights on some "3rd party technology" (KARMA, in this case) because it would cost them extra bucks. You cannot just expect Stephen to sit around and do nothing, man's got bills to pay and a life to live. Especially after putting 10 years of his life into this. So just don't go to the other extreme and be angry at Stephen or do the "Antichrist" thing on him. His work is impeccable and this thing he did is logical.

On the other hand, I gotta tell you, I can't wait to see the light of day when something extra-special - let's call it Karma Universal - is gonna see the light of day. I want to be able to use Karma with a sampler so I can load any type of sound, done by a Karma VST plugin. And I hope that this is one of the next things Stephen does. Whatever he does, as a user I'll always support him because I can't tell you how much playing around with KARMA and really digging deep into that thing has changed the way I do my music, both in studio and live. As a journalist, I always have to keep an eye on everyone, including old friends and people I know because public has to know what's going on. And I've got to tell you, just by looking at raw numbers on my website, Karma on OpenLabs hardware IS a hot subject.

Just my 2c.

Hold up a bit - I’m not angry - I specifically said I harbour no ill will toward Stephen or Korg - I think Stephen Kay is among the most gifted, copped on, down to earth and absolutely dead-on and down right cool characters I've had the good fortune to come across. How could you not wish the guy the very, very best of everything? The same goes for Dan and Jerry. I expressed my 'partial' sadness for the future of OASYS only. We all wish Stephen buckets and buckets of success with Karma on Open Lab - but alas the future of Karma has nothing to do with us any more. That's a strange feeling!

I freely admit to being addicted to synthesizers (even though I'm an active composer and not just a synthesizer collector) - I passionately subscribe to the new and potentially important musical contribution that the very best synths can bring to the table, and that is what OASYS is for me. Funny though - Karma moving to Open Lab has been a huge surprise to me at least and a very strange feeling. It has just knocked me back. It sets OASYS in a whole new/old light.

I know Jerry said that Korg don't comment on future developments - but unfortunately there's a lot at stake here and it’s a pity Korg can’t speak up –even philosophically – on what their future hold. I think Korg are tighter on this front than the likes of even Yamaha; and in being so muted they leave their ‘market’ in a confused state. Korg’s silence on OASYS has created incredible frustration and confusion – they definitely did real damage to their market on that front. It’s understandable why they are silent, but also very unfortunate; and I think they are inflicting market damage on themselves because people – not just OASYS users – don’t know what their thinking is. Roland, for example, are very clear about where they are going and its obvious.
Even Yamaha are now resolute in having abandoned the synthesizer lock stock and barrel; and I had hoped Korg were the opposite – meaning a company committed to a long term future of quality synthesis through OASYS and its offspring - but clearly that's not going to happen now. Korg's silence coupled to Stephen Kay's move to Open Labs speaks volumes and speaks crystal clear - Korg have abandoned OASYS lock, stock and barrel. Of this there can now be no doubt. As said often I'm happy with OASYS as it stands as a single instrument - but I'm very sad about the bigger picture - Korg dropping the ball on what has been a glorious era for synthesis. I wish all Korg and Korg-related personnel the very best of everything, but it’s a sad day for the longevity of the OASYS concept.

Kevin.

[Dany]

Yes, and that is the reason why I have already posted this message elsewhere on this forum:

I will wait till the NAMM 2009 ends. But if there won't be any announcements or hints concerning some developments for the OASYS-Sequencer, I will order immediately the new OpenLabs MiKo-LXD with the new KARMA-OL !!!
The OASYS-88 with the OpenLabs MiKo-LXD and KARMA-OL will be a great fulfilling setup!!!

I do not have the time to wait any longer for KORG developing a better OASYS-Seq, because I have to create music NOW!!!

[vEddY]

We all wish Stephen buckets and buckets of success with Karma on Open Lab - but alas the future of Karma has nothing to do with us any more. That's a strange feeling!

K, I can feel your pain as a very regular Korg customer. And I also feel it in terms of KARMA and Stephen. And at the same time, I have to remain unattached as much as possible given the nature of my work. But to be blunt here, I'm amazed (and I'm not saying that as a positive thing) at what's going on in KORGland in the past two years. I'll give you a perfect example, again being blunt here. M3 should've NEVER seen the light of day in the state it was at when it was launched. It was late as hell, as well, if you take a look at the dates that were mentioned at NAMM. Although comments could be made about its looks, let's remain on the rational side here. Software-wise, it should've come out as M3 XP from the start. I have a million reasons for saying that, the least of which is feeling of "comparability" to Fantom G or Motifs or whatever - I simply don't care about those. Fantom G caught Korg off-guard in terms of price-performance ratio. And from what I know, M3 sales haven't been nearly as good as Tritons. So, if you have a high-end product (OASYS) that's not there to make it to ROI period (Return Of Investment), you have to use it as a marketing tool to sell your stuff that are positioned below that in your product line (in this case, M3 and M50). By not giving the world anything on the OASYS front while still "lagging behind" in terms of M3 development at the launch time, KORG already shot themselves in the foot twice. At the same time, OASYS - although a freakin' awesome keyboard - is old news, not a marketing material to sell M3, especially with its "no-upgrades" upgrades. And by the time KORG made M3 into M3 XP, it was too late, therefor losing money by not selling it as they projected. Of course some things had to suffer. OASYS project being one of those things. And especially with the global recession coming into play.

I freely admit to being addicted to synthesizers (even though I'm an active composer and not just a synthesizer collector) - I passionately subscribe to the new and potentially important musical contribution that the very best synths can bring to the table, and that is what OASYS is for me. Funny though - Karma moving to Open Lab has been a huge surprise to me at least and a very strange feeling. It has just knocked me back. It sets OASYS in a whole new/old light.

Look, whatever happens, OASYS was, is, and probably, for a long time to come, will be the best keyboard on the market. The fact that you can't buy it anymore is frustrating, of course, as is the "don't ask don't tell" policy by KORG done through "no comment on future projects" statement. As is the fact that you don't know what to expect. And this is something that KORG will have to take care of internally, and do it fast, because the momentum is already gone. From where I stand, the train has left the station. And no OS update to catch some fixes for the OASYS is gonna take care of that.

Even Yamaha are now resolute in having abandoned the synthesizer lock stock and barrel; and I had hoped Korg were the opposite – meaning a company committed to a long term future of quality synthesis through OASYS and its offspring - but clearly that's not going to happen now. Korg's silence coupled to Stephen Kay's move to Open Labs speaks volumes and speaks crystal clear - Korg have abandoned OASYS lock, stock and barrel. Of this there can now be no doubt. As said often I'm happy with OASYS as it stands as a single instrument - but I'm very sad about the bigger picture - Korg dropping the ball on what has been a glorious era for synthesis. I wish all Korg and Korg-related personnel the very best of everything, but it’s a sad day for the longevity of the OASYS concept.

Well, take a look at the history here. It took KORG ten years to resurrect the OASYS as a name and a project. To this day, four years after it was introduced, it remains the most powerful syntheseizer ever to grace the keyboard land. Those are undisputed facts. They also speak volumes about what KORG CAN do, when they put their mind into it and execute. We can now argue back and forth about their strategies and decisions all day long, but it all comes down to a very simple thing - they're a private japanese company, which means that things are done in a certain way. I think that some of the things they do are wrong and bad. For example, it's freakin' frustrating to have to go behind everyone's back at KORG crew on NAMM in order to get the damn press releases of the products to be launched in time so I can publish them on my website. And I had most of them more then a week ago, some even before. Which is what I've been doing for the past - is it four years already? Every single time the same thing. In my world, that's easily solvable by a simple mailing list. Take a look at the OASYS as a hardware, at the time of launch. I had quite a few discussions about this with KORG people, but in the end, hardware-wise, it was a bit "obsolete" at launch. If you're offering the be-all-end-all workstation, then you're supposed to have options for your buyers so they can actually USE your product in that way. I'm not talking so much about the CPU here - for example - but the fact that it can only have 2GB of memory is funny at best. After you load OS and EXs's, you don't have a lot to work with. And all of that could've been solved by a simple design decision - to go with a motherboard with a different chipset. Then, for example, now when I'm doing music, I wouldn't have to have a freakin' computer running a sampler as a VST plugin, but instead - I could've done all of that on the OASYS. Or M3 memory (256MB?). Or M50 without the sampler board and few other things they did to M50. And so on, and so on.

KORG has amazing sound engineers, amazing programmers and R&D, and a lot of amazing things. And they have Stephen, as well, and he's a resource that should be put in a different dimension of resources besides what they already have. They lack in other departments. We all just have to live with that. What worries me is the fact that it's been like this for a long time and it's not improving, but going from bad to worse.

[Kevin Nolan]

vEddY -

A very informative response - thanks. Actually - you help a lot here - you provide pragmatic reasons and explanations that make sense and actually - it makes OASYS seem OK! If it is suffering from 'age' - it is suffering no more or less than any other instrument line. You've definitely lifted my spirit a bit - I was taken aback and feeling a bit low. We all get out hopes up - even unsuspectingly - that's what the Open Lab announcement showed me. Here I was saying on other posts to be content with OASYS as is, all the while assuming Stephen Kay would be around for the long term with Karma on OASYS. Not to say he won't do more for it - but for the reasons you point out and mentioned elsewhere - he has to follow where ever allows for development of his amazing technology. And it is stunning technology - 'Manual Advance' and his demos of Eddy Van Halen guitar styles are awesome yet probably just scratching the surface if what Karma could ultimately deliver.

More than hoping for more updates for OASYS, I hope Korg still value Stephen and his work - but again the Open Labs connection seems ominous and must mean divided resources from his stand point.

Time to battle down the hatches and go buy a 2nd OASYS on ebay for the longterm!!

Interesting times.

Cheers,
Kevin.

[robkeith]

This has been one day of NAMM, and really nothing new from Korg as yet. Whilst I am happy for Steven Kay, this is a poor day for Korg. You cant sell a keyboard/synth/workstation on what everyone else has, there has to be something the differentiates your products from the rest of the bunch. Sounds just wont do it any more, with modern technology every one will have them. Would have thought that Karma was one of the main purchasing features for Korg. What do you replace that with?, and price will surely underline all of the other korg keyboard range now.

Keven and V Eddy you said they have fantastic engineers at korg etc, but now with Steven Kay moving in different directions what will the rest do now?.

I make no bones about the fact that right now nothing beats the big O, but also I bought it on a promise from Korg, and resellers, that it would be upgradable, and maintained. If that means Software then so be it, if that meant hardware, then so be it, even at a cost, no one mentioned the obsolescence of the workstation, and without going into great detail the adds for Korg, parra just that "Open Architechture",

So far yes the upgrades have been great, but the "open" finishes when Korg closes the door on it. So are they "Korg", going to release the OS for the Oasys, because they will need to, so that other developers can do what Korg promised they would, and continue to develop and enhance the system on the big O.

I am still holding my breath in hope that there will be good news from Korg at this NAMM for the O, and I remember the discussion I had with my wife when I bought the big O, "this was the one to end them all", and I have been quite happy to purchase upgrades for it since, I have them all.

If the O is discontinued, there is going to be a bad smell about Korg for quite some time, you dont sell a rolls royce and then stop developing it, and at its big O price, one would have thought that it would have had a lot more in it, than this date here today.

Its time for Korg to say "yes we can", because if they dont, apart from my observations above, try and extract any more than $4Kus out of purchasers and see how far you go. Oasys was a success, but to finish it now will have dire consequences for the future for Korg.

The next if any, range of Oasys or flagship will be a financial disaster for Korg, or indeed any who think that +$4kus is feesable, after this experience I wont be revisiting that market ever again.

And with one final wish lets hope there is good news to come

[vEddY]

vEddY -
A very informative response - thanks. Actually - you help a lot here - you provide pragmatic reasons and explanations that make sense and actually - it makes OASYS seem OK! If it is suffering from 'age' - it is suffering no more or less than any other instrument line. You've definitely lifted my spirit a bit - I was taken aback and feeling a bit low. We all get out hopes up - even unsuspectingly - that's what the Open Lab announcement showed me. Here I was saying on other posts to be content with OASYS as is, all the while assuming Stephen Kay would be around for the long term with Karma on OASYS. Not to say he won't do more for it - but for the reasons you point out and mentioned elsewhere - he has to follow where ever allows for development of his amazing technology. And it is stunning technology - 'Manual Advance' and his demos of Eddy Van Halen guitar styles are awesome yet probably just scratching the surface if what Karma could ultimately deliver.

K, it was a pleasure I really love the work this company has done over the years, especially with OASYS in mind, which is still - four years into its life - the best on the market. But time inevitably passes by, and that's just a fact of life. I completely agree with you in terms of aging, and I'd actually like to add a thought there - OASYS is aging like a fine wine, or a girl that's very close to us - it just never gets old, it always gives you that nice feeling inside every time you look at it. Don't for a single second doubt that it's a good product, because it is.

I can tell you one of my OASYS stories. I've been doing some radio commercials in the past 6 months and also some studio work for my friend. I was able to abuse OASYS and KARMA to such extent that all of the basic stuff was easily done in a matter of hours, not days. Especially for commercials. This is something that saves my time, which I don't have, therefor enables me to do other stuff, which make me either smile or make money. And for whatever of these reasons, every single time I wake up and see this keyboard on my studio desk, I can't help but smile. It's just something that I cannot regret having, not ever, not in this lifetime anyway. Just like my Trinity Rack.

Time to battle down the hatches and go buy a 2nd OASYS on ebay for the longterm!!

Haha, that's a good one And I think that it would be a very good investment indeed These babies are gonna sell for a lot of cash one day, I have a very strong feeling about this....

[vEddY]

I make no bones about the fact that right now nothing beats the big O, but also I bought it on a promise from Korg, and resellers, that it would be upgradable, and maintained. If that means Software then so be it, if that meant hardware, then so be it, even at a cost, no one mentioned the obsolescence of the workstation, and without going into great detail the adds for Korg, parra just that "Open Architechture",
So far yes the upgrades have been great, but the "open" finishes when Korg closes the door on it. So are they "Korg", going to release the OS for the Oasys, because they will need to, so that other developers can do what Korg promised they would, and continue to develop and enhance the system on the big O.

I strongly feel that KORG had a completely different vision of the "Open Architecture" thingy then what you're saying here, and I actually do agree with you, it's something they did, not you or anyone else. I would love to see some kind of standard platform for further developping OASYS features, but in a way SynthKit did to OASYS PCI. I would love to see more synth engines, reshuffled sequencer, piano roll, all of those things that we discussed into oblivion here. I would love to see it being upgradeable in a hardware way via some hardware kit, for example, we could've finally used that unused Ethernet port. And a million other things.

The "nature of this problem" also has some relation to the fact that the recession tends to "focus" the company a little bit. I just hope that it re-focuses KORG, in a good way. KORG was, is, and always will be - from the user's perspective - a keyboard company with great keyboards and a company that provided the definition of the word "workstation" with M1, and redefined it with the OASYS and M3. Wether that's a closed chapter or not, remains to be seen. Industry trends say that it just might be happening. But living at this day and age, and having that beautiful black beast sitting back home... kind of makes me smile. Whatever the future might hold...

[Kayemef]

I was wondering what all the fuss about Open Lbas was, so I went on their website and took a look at one of their artist endorsment "interview". This one is with Keith Emerson. I thought it was funny...
http://www.openlabs.com/keith-emerson.html
And besides, I thought we needed Vista to have 4GB RAM support. (Which in fact is more like 3 and half due to some processing mumbo jumbo.)

Long live enthousiastic endorsements while reading cue cards mounted on top of the competitors flagship keyboard.

[lcmorley]

I was wondering what all the fuss about Open Lbas was, so I went on their website and took a look at one of their artist endorsment "interview". This one is with Keith Emerson. I thought it was funny...
http://www.openlabs.com/keith-emerson.html
And besides, I thought we needed Vista to have 4GB RAM support. (Which in fact is more like 3 and half due to some processing mumbo jumbo.)

Long live enthousiastic endorsements while reading cue cards mounted on top of the competitors flagship keyboard.

Considering that they are trying to endorse the Miko, it seems the bloke on the right is more interested in the Oasys.

[franzlp]

The Emerson quote is quite funny as we all know that Keith is a die hard Korg , Hammond , and Moog guy. Anything else is just to play with.

As for the Oasys I think it is true that Korg has to step up in it's moral promise to support this beast. I have always been a big fan of Korg equipment and although I am one person among many I invested in this beast because it has it all. If Korg doesn't support it I will never look to Korg again.....plan B could always be Kurzweil.

[vEddY]

If Korg doesn't support it I will never look to Korg again.....plan B could always be Kurzweil.

You know what's my problem with that? I can tell you from my perspective. I have never, and I mean _never_ been yelled at by anyone in the past five yers, wether in this or IT industry, except for two PR/marketing idiots - one is from AMD, and the other is from Kurzweil. You think that Korg is touchy about their IP and future products and announcements?

Man, I had a rift that one guy from Kurzweil will remember for the rest of his life. I asked him about K3x series that I've heard is in the works and the guy went ballistic on me. This was the first time ever in my life that I told someone from this industry to f*ck off after being pushed to do something I just won't do - tell someone about my sources. After that, I seriously reconsidered thinking about buying any of the Kurz stuff. I know this sounds personal, but it actually is not. I had fights and quarrels and all sorts of things with people from Korg, Yamaha, Intel, NVIDIA, pick your number - but never did anyone go "breaking limits" of a civil and normal discussion. And expressing your opinion about something, wether you're agreeing with someone or not, but done in a civil way, is something this industry desperately needs.

I sincerely respect everything Kurz has done for the industry, and feel really sorry for them for being so f*ed by ownership and money problems. I have nothing but the deepest respect for VAST, K2500 and K2600 series, absolutely loathe K2661, and I'd love to have K2500/2600 as a nice addition to my studio. I just don't need it. OASYS, as a workstation, makes them look like a half-laughing matter, and being the elitist in a sense that I want to work with the best tools possible because it saves the most prescious gift I have - which is time - it's a bit of a turn-off for me. And it does that to Motif and Fantom, as well, with ease, four years into its existence.

Wether Korg supports it or not is a matter of business principles more then someone's feelings, you know? And with the recession hitting so heavily and currency exchange problems, most of the companies face some difficult challenges ahead, as does the market and the end user, as the "bag" that gives all of the money for the whole play. A lot of people are gonna lose their jobs in all of this mess on a global level. I'm pretty sure that most of the Korg USA crew would love to do OASYS s**t for as long as they're alive. But most of those decisions are made in Japan, and they are - with all respect - a bit less "emotionally involved" with their products, and a bit more "involved" with the business side of the story. Which is perfect if it's in balance, which it's not. And the "AMD alarm", how we tend to call these situations (when you have a gut feeling that a company is terribly mismanaged on a global level) went "on" in me a long time ago here. But yelling and cursing is not gonna help, as well. What I think we all should do is ease back a little bit and give it a bit of time - to Korg, as well.

[Daz]

Thinking about it ... whilst there are still stocks of Oasys out in the stores to be sold, Korg are very sensibly not going to mess with that by suggesting that the Oasys is no longer an ongoing concern.

[vEddY]

Thinking about it ... whilst there are still stocks of Oasys out in the stores to be sold, Korg are very sensibly not going to mess with that by suggesting that the Oasys is no longer an ongoing concern.

Man, if there was an Oasys Rack (hey, Sharpy boy, your rendered-image ROCKED!!!), I would go and buy myself that thing, like, today.

[Sharp]

Thinking about it ... whilst there are still stocks of Oasys out in the stores to be sold, Korg are very sensibly not going to mess with that by suggesting that the Oasys is no longer an ongoing concern.

Man, if there was an Oasys Rack (hey, Sharpy boy, your rendered-image ROCKED!!!), I would go and buy myself that thing, like, today.

Well just for you mate, here's one that hasn't been seen before.



I hope you approve of the use I'm giving that sweet quad core extreme you gave me.

Regards.
Sharp.