PA500 live (mayor drawback, very low output sound, )

Discussions relating to the Korg Pa2X Pro, Pa800 & Pa500

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Rob Sherratt
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

This article explains in detail why problems can arise for example on keyboards like the Pa1x or Pa500 or the Pa800 when connecting unbalanced line outputs to monitor speakers or a mixer desk with balanced inputs.

Unbalanced:
  • Uses a single wire plus shield "guitar lead" cable in which the signal is transmitted as a voltage offset compared to the ground/shield wire. The braided shield is connected to the shield of the quarter inch mono jack plug, and the signal wire is connected to the tip of the quarter inch mono jack plug. Hence the plugs are refereed to as "Tip and Shield" plugs. If noise - for example mains buzz - is induced into the signal wire, the noise is added to the wanted signal. There is no noise cancellation.
Balanced:
  • Uses a dual wire plus shield microphone cable in which the mono signal is transmitted in phase (ie positive) on one wire and out of phase (ie negative) on the other wire. The two signal wires are connected to the tip and the ring of a "stereo" jack plug or to an XLR connector's tip and ring pins. The quarter inch "stereo" plug is referred to as a TRS connector (Tip, Ring and Shield) when used for balanced mono signals.

    If the letter V represents the signal, then the transmitter generates +V on one wire and -V on the other wire with respect to ground. The receiver subtracts the two signals, and so actually recovers 2V. The clever thing is that noise - such as mains buzz - is completely eliminated. How? Let's represent the noise signal with the letter N. During transmisssion one wire will carry (V+N) and the other wire will carry (-V+N). The receiver performs the subtraction (V+N) - (-V+N) = 2V, so the noise cancels out.
Don't do this at home:
  • Most microphones generate a very low level signal which is susceptible to noise (eg mains hum) pickup. Therefore nearly all microphones have balanced XLR connectors and balanced cabling so that the noise pickup will cancel out at the receiver. Also condenser microphones require 48V DC voltage applied to the "tip" signal wire. Many mixer desks provide this 48V DC on XLR inputs designed for condenser microphones. If you connect your keyboard's line output sockets to a 48V MIC XLR input on a mixer desk or a powered monitor speaker, you will cause a lot of damage to the keyboard.
The dangers of "Stereo" jack leads:
  • Case 1: Let's say someone connects the two line outputs from a Pa500 or from a CD player to a Stereo TRS connector, and plugs the connector into a powered monitor speaker.

    On one wire you will have the left channel, L and on the other wire you will have the right channel R. The signals are almost identical most of the time. At the receiver it performs the subtraction R-L, leaving almost no signal at all. So the sound is terrible, it's very, very quiet and hopelessly distorted - since all you are hearing is the difference between the two channels instead of the sum of the two channels.

    BALANCED and STEREO signals use the same connector. You have to understand the difference between the two because the signals are completely incompatible.

    Case 2: Let's say someone uses a "Stereo" lead with TRS plugs at each end to connect the Right line output from the keyboard to a powered monitor speaker's balanced input. At the receiver, the input level will be half what was expected. Remember it is expecting to see a "2R" signal after performing the subtraction. Instead it will only see a "1R" signal. Also there will be an impedance mismatch which is another topic for discussion on a rainy day. The impedance mismatch will cause unwanted resonance and filtering of the sound.

    So to connect UNBALANCED line outputs to BALANCED inputs, always use an active conversion box like the Behringer DI-120, using a pair of short guitar leads from keyboard to the DI-120 inputs, then use balanced XLR leads from the DI-120 to the balanced inputs on the mixer desk or powered monitor speakers.
Best regards,
Rob
saldevita
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:12 pm

Post by saldevita »

Thanks!, thanks!, thanks Rob, you're great!,

I really appreciate your post and links. Simply I've understood the point behind unbalanced/balanced issues!.

About the little box (BEHRINGER DI), I've found out 2 models in the store: DI20 and DI100. Not sure if with 1x DI20 I'll get the same than 2x DI100, so why buy the DI100, quality, performance?

Regarding the boxes, I'm confused. In owner's manual (http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/ ... 80m_en.pdf) I've read in the Specifications that all inputs are BALANCED, while in page 6 "The HS-series studio monitors also feature 1/4-inch phone jack connectors that can be used for either balanced or unbalanced connections.".

Mmmm, maybe they accept UNBALANCED inputs, but Noise is out there!

Thanks again.

Saldevita
pcguy
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Post by pcguy »

Rob Sherratt wrote:
Note that the Pa500 outputs are not balanced, so you must use mono jack leads of about 6 inch length betweeen the Pa500 and the DI box unbalanced input, then TRS or XLR leads to your mixer desk. When I had a Pa1x, I used a Behringer DI-100 dual DI box to convert the Pa1x outputs from unbalanced to balanced, and then I used a pair of long XLR leads straight to my powered monitor speakers.

If anyone used TRS/stereo jack leads from the Pa500, and plugged the other end into balanced inputs eg on a mixer desk or powered monitors elsewhere, there would be an impedance mismatch and distorted sound and severe loss of gain.

Any mixer desk or mixer amplifier will cope fine with the output from the Pa500. Everyone playing live uses some form of mixer desk or mixer/amp so I don't think you can say the Pa500 is useless for live use.

Best regards,
Rob
Rob,
In order to achieve the maximum clarity and loudness, you suggest that i shouldn't connect my keyboard (PA 800 ) directly to a mixer? And i should use a converter in between? So far i've been using quarter inch instrument cables. After reading your post, i'm pretty sure that i've been doing this wrong. I understand that a cable either is balanced or unbalanced, and technically we shouldn't connect a balanced output to a balanced input and vice versa...right?
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Rob Sherratt
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

pcguy wrote:In order to achieve the maximum clarity and loudness, you suggest that i shouldn't connect my keyboard (PA 800 ) directly to a mixer? And i should use a converter in between? So far i've been using quarter inch instrument cables. After reading your post, i'm pretty sure that i've been doing this wrong. I understand that a cable either is balanced or unbalanced, and technically we shouldn't connect a balanced output to a balanced input and vice versa...right?
Hi pcguy,

The Pa800 and Pa500 have unbalanced outputs. Many mixers have an input jack socket that is specified as balanced/unbalanced, plus an XLR socket that is always balanced. The way the input jack socket works is that there is a little microswitch that detects the R (ring) indentation if you inserted a TRS plug. If it detects that a TRS plug was inserted, it switched the input stage circuitry to use a differential line receiver expecting to see a balanced signal with "in phase" +V(f) on the tip and "out of phase" -V(f) on the ring.

So you have two choices, both of which will give good results:

a) Short cables / unbalanced cabling

Use short quarter inch TS "mono" instrument plugs at the end of the cables, definitely do not use TRS "stereo" plugs. Keep the cables away from power supply wires. This assumes that when you plug the cables into your mixer or your powered monitor speakers, it has dual mode balanced/unbalanced input sockets. If the mixer/speakers only provides balanced input sockets then you can not use this method.

b) Long cables / balanced cabling


Use very short quarter inch TS "mono" instrument cables from your Pa800/Pa500 to connect to a Behringer Ultra DI D120 box (which has two channels for L and R), which you can get for $29 here:

http://www.audiomidi.com/DI20-Ultra-DI--P3754.aspx

Then use whatever length XLR leads you wish from the Ultra DI D120 box to connect to your mixer or powered monitor speakers. I prefer to keep it XLR to XLR, but you can also get XLR leads with TRS quarter inch plugs on one end, if your mixer only has balanced TRS sockets.

Conclusions

For the small increase in cost of maybe $40 for solution (b) compared with solution (a) I would always adopt solution (b). That's exactly how I connected my Pa1x Pro to my powered monitor speakers in the past. Now that I have a Pa2x pro with balanced outputs, I no longer need to use the Behringer Ultra DI D120 box. Instead I use TRS balanced cables with TRS jack plugs at the Pa2x end, and XLR connectors at the mixer desk.

However so long as the leads are kept short and so long as they are routed away from any mains cables, solution (a) will not necessarily give any less favorable results than solution (b), unless you use a TRS connector by mistake which will cause signal loss and distortion.

Best regards,
Rob
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Rob Sherratt
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

saldevita wrote:Thanks!, thanks!, thanks Rob, you're great!,

I really appreciate your post and links. Simply I've understood the point behind unbalanced/balanced issues!.

About the little box (BEHRINGER DI), I've found out 2 models in the store: DI20 and DI100. Not sure if with 1x DI20 I'll get the same than 2x DI100, so why buy the DI100, quality, performance?

Regarding the boxes, I'm confused. In owner's manual (http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/ ... 80m_en.pdf) I've read in the Specifications that all inputs are BALANCED, while in page 6 "The HS-series studio monitors also feature 1/4-inch phone jack connectors that can be used for either balanced or unbalanced connections.".

Mmmm, maybe they accept UNBALANCED inputs, but Noise is out there!
Hi Saldevita,

I read the manual whose link you sent me, and you are correct that the jack sockets on the HS80M monitors can accept balanced signals if you use a TRS plug and unbalanced signals if you use a TS plug. The Yamaha web site is wrong when it says inputs are balanced and makes no mention about unbalanced. So there you are - Yamaha's web site author should RTFM !

Anyway, what this means is that you do have the option to use mono "unbalanced" guitar leads with TS plugs at each end to connect the outputs from the Pa500/Pa800 directly to the HS80M monitors. The maximum cable length must be no more than 3m and the cables must be kept well away from any mains wiring or power supplies. Do not use TRS "stereo" connectors or it will be a disaster.

You would not necessarily get any increased performance by adopting a "balanced" solution using a Behringer DI D120 box. However you could use balanced XLR or TRS cables of any length you wanted from the DI D120 box to your HS80M monitors, and any noise pickup would be cancelled. This would be a far better solution if you are planning to do any pub or club gigs.

For stereo outputs from the Pa800/Pa500 you need two unbalanced to balanced converter channels. The DI D120 is a 2-channel version of the DI D100. The circuitry is identical. The DI D120 is much cheaper and more compact than two DI D100's.

PS Behringer should pay me commission :lol:

Best regards,
Rob
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niranjanjaveri
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Post by niranjanjaveri »

Rob,
You are simply great . what a post , what an explaination... :verycool: :verycool: :verycool:

Sharp, Karmathanever .....can you guys please`make this a sticky........This info is awesome...

Thank you once again for your detailed posts..
regards,
Niranjan
Niranjan

Korg Triton Le,
Korg Pa800
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... dID=228851
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modbod
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Location: Dublin, Ireland (PA800, Stagepas 300)

Post by modbod »

Rob

I refer to your post dated April 14 2009 above.
I have a PA800 and the Stagepas 300 PA system. I connect the unbalanced L & R outputs at the back of the PA800 to the relevant L & R inputs (No.7) on the Stagepas 300 mixer, using cables with 1/4 inch TS plugs at each end.

As I'm not sure whether the input sockets on the Stagepas 300 mixer are balanced or unbalanced or both, I'm not sure whether I need the DI Box in the middle as discussed by you. Can you please advise as I think you also have the Stagepas 300. If I do need the Box, can you send me a link to a suitable product at Thomann as the product on the link you gave above can only be supplied in the USA, it seems.

Many thanks in anticipation, Michael
Modbod
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Rob Sherratt
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Post by Rob Sherratt »

modbod wrote:Rob

I refer to your post dated April 14 2009 above.
I have a PA800 and the Stagepas 300 PA system. I connect the unbalanced L & R outputs at the back of the PA800 to the relevant L & R inputs (No.7) on the Stagepas 300 mixer, using cables with 1/4 inch TS plugs at each end.

As I'm not sure whether the input sockets on the Stagepas 300 mixer are balanced or unbalanced or both, I'm not sure whether I need the DI Box in the middle as discussed by you. Can you please advise as I think you also have the Stagepas 300. If I do need the Box, can you send me a link to a suitable product at Thomann as the product on the link you gave above can only be supplied in the USA, it seems.

Many thanks in anticipation, Michael
Hi Michael,

That's pretty much what I am doing with the L & R outputs from my M3 which are connected to the pair of TS unbalanced sockets labelled 5/6 on my Stagepas 300. Also my Pa2x L & R outputs are routed in unbalanced mode via 1.5 metre TS plugs and cables to the L & R audio inputs on my M3. I use the M3 as a mixer to combine and add master EFX to both the sound from the Pa2x and from the M3 itself. The stereo inputs on the Stagepas 300 channels 5, 6, 7 and 8 are unbalanced. (note that the inputs 1, 2, 3, and 4 are balanced inputs). Keep the leads from your Pa800 to less than 3 metres in length, and route them well away from any mains cables or digital cables (eg USB).

The Behringer dual DI D120 box would enable the signals from your Pa800 to be transmitted over very long XLR cables if needed in future, but you would have to modify your StagePas 300 mixer slightly to use balanced stereo inputs. You would have to use a pair of balanced inputs on the StagePas 300 (eg channels 3 and 4), and you would have to modify the input stage circuitry so that channel 3 input is panned full left and channel 4 input is panned full right. It is a limitation of the StagePas 300 that there is no panning adjustment available on any of the inputs. If that is something you need to do in the future, there are two resistors that would have to be snipped.

For me, if I have to gig with a band then I do not use the Stagepas 300 setup, but instead I plug into the venue's pro sound system with a larger mixer desk which of course has pan adjustments for L & R balanced keyboard inputs from the Pa2x.

Best regards,
Rob
Kor
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Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:26 pm

low output

Post by Kor »

hi SP77,

i had a similar problem with my pa2xpro: it turned out to be a motherboard problem... see

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

gtz Kor
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modbod
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Location: Dublin, Ireland (PA800, Stagepas 300)

Post by modbod »

Rob

Many thanks for this invaluable info.

As usual, your technical excellence is outstanding and is surpassed only by your generosity in sharing your knowledge with others.

Best Regards, Michael
Modbod
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