2012 – The Galactic Alignment

[xmlguy]

Nobody here mentioned any mismatch between Horoscopic Astrological signs and astronomical constellations. I was referring to the modern understanding of the constellations vs. the classical view derived from the Greeks, which were the basis for the signs of the Zodiac used by many Astrological traditions, regardless of Horoscopic Astrology. Nearly all of the constellation patterns are based on our visual perspective from our location, not their astrophysical relationship.

James Randi has a lot to say about Astrology and the prophetic claims of various popular practitioners of it, so I'll let him do the debunking of that.

Personally, I like fortune cookies, but not so much the regular "good fortune" ones, but the hilarious "bad fortune" ones. The white chocolate ones are good too. That's about the limit of my interest in fortune telling of any kind. I do find it funny that America exports fortune cookies to China to satisfy the expectation of American tourists who are disappointed to find that restaurants didn't have them and the locals had no idea what they were.

"You will find love in 2013. Unfortunately the Galactic Alignment will destroy all other humans on earth in 2012, so you might brush up on Ape mating habits."

[Timo]

I dunno Sharp, I just see a lot of hype without much substance. From what I've seen it's all amplified speculation. And it's speculation at best. The end of the world (or whatever)? I mean, really?

I see a lot of the hype being more around selling American movies or fictional books than actual real life facts.

When people first heard Jeff Wayne's War Of The Worlds some became hysterical because they believed it was real.

In history, people believed solar eclipses were caused by dragons eating the moon or sun, or that such an event predicted war and devastation. Not so. The worst a solar eclipse can do is blind you if you look at it.

Some people believe they see extra-terrestrial based UFOs over the Nevada desert, where they're actually much more likely to be American testing of new technologies created in the Area 51 research facility. Others believed the Millennium bug would cause meltdown on all road networks (traffic light mayhem), and on much computer technology.

Humans in large numbers love to feel scared or fear about a common threat, real or non-real, particularly when 'survival' is involved or threatened, or where we feel fear from not fully understanding something. It unites us, and makes us feel that, even though we don't know the answer to why life is important, it is what we're actually here for - that life is worth living, supporting and fighting for, and protecting. I think it's the most primeval nature of us as a species. Humans also love rumours for similar reasons, bonding, sharing a common interest.

The Mayan calendar ending in 2012? In my line of thinking, if the Mayans were still here they'd likely have had a new calendar lined up to take over from the last. Their current one has run for 5000 years, they couldn't carry it on indefinately. 5000 odd years is a good run.

Our current civilisation can predict events far beyond a year, but my yearly calendar ends at the end of this year (naturally). It just means another period starts. It doesn't mean the end of the world is nigh. It just means the Earth has completed a noted circuit around the Sun, and is a mental marker or label for us as humans to anchor and correlate/categorise events to. Other planets have different years. An Earth Year is unrelated to any other planet.

I'd like to see some undisputed facts of the effects that such a galactic alignment will indeed have on Earth.

Regards one thing, I'm fully aware of solar flares' effects on Earth. They have a habit of upsetting satellites and radio communication putting them out of action, along with an increase in radiation which is more a problem for those in Space than us on Earth... But solar flares are relatively common events. They're known entities.

[dreamaiden]

Bear with me... I'm going out on a limb a little bit.

One of the possible scenarios in the documentary was that our galaxy has a black hole in it. If it were to sit right between the sun and the earth it could cause the earth to shift on it's axis. Any shift of 5 degrees would cause chaos. My facts are probably off and I have no idea if there is even a black hole in the galaxy or not. The point is that one thing can cause something else, which can cause something else. The fact is that we don't know. No one really does. One thing I do know that there have been other periods of extinction on the planet and there could be another one and it could come for a number of reasons. Who knows... 2012 could be it, or the start of it, or nothing at all. The only thing we know is that we don't know.

On the news the other day was a report that scientists have already built a cement structure somewhere, I didn't catch where, but around the Artic. They are storing seeds of all plants, etc. in case of an event. This was in a 2012 discussion. They are calling it a Noah's Arc. I have no idea when they actually built it but they were showing current video of them putting seeds in containers. Of course another scientist said that such an event would wipe it out anyway so there you have it. Interesting though.

Regarding astrology, we don't know if it is valid or not. Certainly it is not a scientifically proven method of forecasting. I'm not talking about the mom and pop shops or the online vagabonds. I'm talking about the credible people who have devoted their life to the 'science' of astrology. While astrology is based on mathematic calculations (you can even buy software), the real 'pro' part of it is in the interpretation. For example, a well seasoned conductor may lead a symphony in what could be perceived to be a better interpretation of the music than a novice. Personally, I've seen enough from a few pros in the field of astrology that leads me to believe there just might be something valid there, enough that it is interesting to me. I don't live my life by it but I observe a lot.

Personally, I feel that there are a lot of things that are not so black and white. I actually enjoy the space in between, the intrigue and the possibilities of it all, and I enjoy a discussion and debate if the door is not completely slammed closed. I also believe that the only things that are proven are the things science has proven, and even those things change. I think maybe even scientists go into the field of science to explore the possibilities. Before there was no water on the moon. Now there is enough water in the rocks for humans to colonize. I'm sure that is exciting to scientists. And of course, there are some things that I believe are definitely out there that will one day be proven, just not yet. I love those things but with some reservation and healthy skepticism. I saw one science show where some scientists were saying that it was impossible to travel x amount of distance in space. Another scientist said, 'not so fast' and explained how in fact it could be done. I think scientists are open to possibilities until proven otherwise.

I totally love it when something is proven or disproven but I also like to leave a little room for possibilities. Makes life interesting and you just never really know until you know, and even then...

The part about the 2012 discussion that interests me is that lots of fingers point to it being some sort of thing. I'm much more annoyed that we may be the Jetsons one day and have alien friends and I might not be around to see it. Now that is really annoying.

My quote for the day:

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift and that's why they call it Present.

[RiotNrrd]

Unfortunately for astrology, the constellations are all an illusion based on our point of reference and the human need to see patterns where none exist. Anything based on the position of the constellations is merely a magnfication of an illusion.

Oops. Sorry xmlguy. I thought that you had written the above, in which the constellations were mentioned in reference to astrology (which doesn't actually use them).

My mistake.

[xmlguy]

Unfortunately for astrology, the constellations are all an illusion based on our point of reference and the human need to see patterns where none exist. Anything based on the position of the constellations is merely a magnfication of an illusion.

Oops. Sorry xmlguy. I thought that you had written the above, in which the constellations were mentioned in reference to astrology (which doesn't actually use them).

My mistake.

Your mistake was in thinking I was specifically referring to horoscopic astrology. I explained that I was referring to classical astrology, but if you don't want believe that, IDGARA.

[RiotNrrd]

One of the possible scenarios in the documentary was that our galaxy has a black hole in it. If it were to sit right between the sun and the earth it could cause the earth to shift on it's axis. Any shift of 5 degrees would cause chaos. My facts are probably off and I have no idea if there is even a black hole in the galaxy or not.

There is strong evidence that there is, in fact, a massive black hole at the center of the galaxy (of most galaxies, actually). BUT...

The black hole at the galactic center is approximately 25000 light-years from earth. The sun, on the other hand, is around 8 light-minutes from Earth. So, while you are right that if there was a black hole between us and the sun it would definitely be catastrophic, it is impossible that the black hole at the center of the galaxy could be that particular catastrophe-inducing object (i.e., we'd have to travel straight towards the galactic center at the speed of light for 25000 years before we'd even get close to that particular black hole). We're not traveling directly towards the galactic center, and we're certainly not moving at the speed of light, so I wouldn't worry about it overmuch.

[dreamaiden]

Thanks Riot. (You're a VNP.) I may not have heard that in the right context then. It doesn't make sense that would be evidence for anything. If you get a chance, watch the documentary on the History Channel. It was interesting. They have shown it a few times.

[ozy]

history is full of all sorts of end of the world predictions but none are backed by any scientific proof

this is where you get it wrong:

ALL millenarist, doomsday, conspiracy, theories are ALWAYS backed by some current form of "rational" thought and of CONTEMPORARY "technological" reference.

End of the world in the 60s [Club of Rome style] was backed by detailed studies about commodities [later proved wrong].

End of the World in late 10th century was supported by astronomy and logic [flawed, of course].

"Scientific" maps drawn by Visual Witnesses, not some generic feeling, fixed the limits of Universe at Gibraltar.

The real issue is: ignorant people in every Age consider its current knowledge as FINAL.

It's never final. Because reality is always more rich than our current knowledge (that's why learning is so fun).

My guess is:

ignorant people perceive their own limits, perceive that they're gonna end, and call that "end of the world".

They end, the world goes on. Next generation doesn't even care about what worried the previous generation.

New worries are created.

Don't worry about "the end of the world", THINK about the world, know it.

[Gargamel314]

What i don't get is... they say this happens every 13,000 years. Humans have been around for way more than 13,000 years... and we're still alive.

[Rosen Sound]

Not even the mayans believe this crap....

[ozy]

our galaxy has a black hole in it.

my budget for synthesizers has been detected by astronomers?!?

[Sharp]

Not even the mayans believe this crap....

Don't be so quick to judge. 400 years ago we were also wrong when man said the world was flat and that Christopher Columbus would fall off the edge trying to prove science wrong.

Yet the Mayans thousands of years ago learned of our location in the Milkyway Galaxy with so much accuracy that it took us thousands of years later to verify with the Hubble that these guys were right.

Who's the dumb one, us or them ?

Regards
Sharp.

[ozy]

here's some food for thought about Astrology.

Your Astrological Sign is determined by your birth date and hour, right?

Because position of the stars and planets when you begin to exist is supposed to influence you character.

But each individual's DNA, which is the gentic determinant, is created 9 months before the birth date.

So, e.g., I shouldn't be a "Cancer", I should be a "Scorpio".

When my character was "determined", planets weren't wehere they were supposed to be.

Doh!

EVERY single Horoscope of the past 60 centuries should be accordingly rewritten.

So much for Astrology.

Next.

[Sharp]

Its your “Birth Date” your age and star sign is counted from, not when an egg was fertilised.

Had to start somewhere, and that sounds a lot more acceptable way to mark your birthday than the date ones Mom was shagged.

Regards
Sharp

[ozy]

Its your “Birth Date” your age and star sign is counted from, not when an egg was fertilised. Had to start somewhere, and that sounds a lot more acceptable way to mark your birthday than the date ones Mom was shagged.Regards Sharp

why?

what connects stars to what I am?

their "influx on my generation", right?

when astrology was invented, people presumed that you are MADE the day you are BORN. That your brain, body, istincts, adrenaline levels, whatever, are made that day.

Now we know that your are MADE the day you are CONCEIVED [a modicum of knowledge of biology would tell you that. Short of that, even religionists think the same way: you exist since the day you are conceived].

So, if the whole idea of Astrology is "the stars were located in a significant way when your destiny was traced"...

... either astrology was wrong until moderm medicine was born, or it is wrong today.

Which is it, according to you?

Sorry for bothering, but I don't care much about stars or DNA,

but I do care A LOT about logic,

and I see a deep logic flaw in all of this.

PS:

let's forget the tone of the elegant phrase about my mother being "shagged".

Let's just consider the substance of the event you were considering: well, I think the day my parents made love and made me has been a nice day to me.

Methinks they enjoyed it: I certainly do.

So, I'd think about it with a certain respect.