Can Kronos' piano play ppp convincingly?

Lando · Post by **Lando** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:36 pm

I don't mean that the dynamic range is too big, that could never be a problem, I mean that the modelling of high velocities is specially unnatural sounding to my ears. I can assure you that it has nothing to do with the controller I'm using (in this case a Yamaha S90ES).

I totally understand that tweaking Pianoteq could make my experience of it slightly better, but I don't think that the sound from it is even close to par...

Actually, let me upload what I am hearing here.

EDIT:
2 mp3:s I made, recorded a short MIDIfile and let both pianos play it. No reverb. The Pianoteq patch is the K1 which I thought sounded nicest and the Ivory is the Ivory D without ambience.

http://www.2shared.com/audio/1Lueit_X/Ivory_D.html
http://www.2shared.com/audio/bhRwW0Zl/Pianoteq.html

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:56 pm

Hey Lando, have you listened to the demos I linked to on the previous page? They're great, but Pianoteq sounds much nicer through my Mackies live.

It's brilliant, and if you read the reviews from the many major music mags found on the Pianoteq site, you'll find that the reviewers are unanimous in their praise of how the Pianoteq instruments come as close to the real deal as they've ever played - and heard. I've spoken with the program's designer Phillipe Guillame on several occasions, and the man is clearly passionate about his product and about continually improving the customer experience through frequent updates (currently at 3.6.6), providing a wealth of free historical instrument add-ons and much more. He always responds to my inquiries and has helped me set up my interface to provide me with the most incredible "synthetic piano" performance experience I've ever had.

Ya, Ivory has some wicked good samples, but I feel like I'm playing samples. When I play Pianoteq 3.6.6 and position my monitor speakers away from me, it's a magical thing. Ivory, naaa, they're still 8 layers of samples that I feel and hear.

I can't see how Kronos' comparatively small sample sets could improve on Ivory's meticulous megagigabyte libraries of samples, but we'll see once it's out in the field for us all to try for ourselves

Lando · Post by **Lando** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:56 am

rricky, I respect your opinion and I think we have to agree that we disagree on this.

While some the demos you linked sound fairly ok to me, I doubt that I would ever be fooled that they are played on real pianos, and if I had to guess on an acoustic instrument I would say some wierd sounding instruments with very wierd harmonic content in the upper register (to me for instance the Claire de Lune demo shows this). On the other hand, I would never be able to tell that the Ivory wasn't a real instrument, to me it sounds exacly like a recorded, awesome Steinway D, which of course it is. Also when it came to playability, my hands just revolted when playing the Pianoteq, the response from the instrument felt very unnatural to me.

Belive me when I say that noone would be happier than me if modelling acoustic pianos had come closer to what I want from a virtual instrument or a workstation. I find no joy in loading multi gig pianos and using them on the road with my Macbook so if there was a great modelled alternative I would buy it tomorrow, use it and never look back! This is why I will check back everytime Pianoteq comes with a new version.

I totally understand what you are saying about no velocity layers in modelled pianos, and yes, this is the future, no doubt about that, but having scaleless velocity means nothing when modelling yet isn't good enough to capture a realistic pp or any velocity to my ears.

Looking forward to the Kronos piano tho, every demo I've heard so far sounds excellent, so high hopes there!

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:04 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:Ya, Ivory has some wicked good samples, but I feel like I'm playing samples. When I play Pianoteq 3.6.6 and position my monitor speakers away from me, it's a magical thing. Ivory, naaa, they're still 8 layers of samples that I feel and hear.

Yes. This is the important point. Samples are not connected between each other, there's no interaction, no excitation. Just a lifeless snapshot. That's where the stiffness comes from, and this is where modelling excels at - it will always respond like a real instrument. Samples don't respond like a real piano - no matter how good you program them. It's just a bunch of static recordings, with no relation to each other. Screw that, I want to play a living, breathing instrument, not a stiff impersonation.

Lando, I really cannot understand how can't you find Pianoteq playable enough. That's it's highest point! Sampled pianos aren't playable, they don't respond or behave like a real piano! Pianoteq does.

From your audio examples, it is painfully obvious you don't have velocity curve set appropriately for your controller, in Pianoteq. You do know that not all virtual recreations of piano respond in the same way to velocity, hence you need to tweak the velocity response. I feel that you need to ease up the sensitivity in the middle and low end of velocity range. Try tweaking around "moderately fast keyboard" velocity curve (right-click the Velocity window to get some basic presets).

On a second note, I can't believe how dull Ivory sounded on that example.

Here's a small example on how Pianoteq handles pp velocities with ease, not to mention excellent sympathetic resonance, pedal noise and other realistic elements of piano sound. Sorry on a few mistakes. Listen especially closing the end, those bass notes - such interaction and vibrancy between them is something I didn't manage to get with ANY sample-based piano to date (and believe me, I tried them a lot). Pianoteq delivers, out of the box.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:56 pm

Lando wrote:rricky, I respect your opinion and I think we have to agree that we disagree on this.

While some the demos you linked sound fairly ok to me, I doubt that I would ever be fooled that they are played on real pianos, and if I had to guess on an acoustic instrument I would say some wierd sounding instruments with very wierd harmonic content in the upper register...

Looking forward to the Kronos piano tho, every demo I've heard so far sounds excellent, so high hopes there!

Agree to disagree for sure

I need two more grands for the studio so I've been doing a lot of shopping recently. In Toronto we have no shortage of excellent piano dealers. I have been to many, and played literally over a hundred different pianos in the last month or so, and I've come across my fair share of "weird sounding" instruments!

Physics is (are) a wondrous thing(s) indeed. Modeling physics is equally wondrous to me. Samples, not so much...

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:24 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Here's a small example on how Pianoteq handles pp velocities with ease, not to mention excellent sympathetic resonance, pedal noise and other realistic elements of piano sound. Sorry on a few mistakes. Listen especially closing the end, those bass notes - such interaction and vibrancy between them is something I didn't manage to get with ANY sample-based piano to date (and believe me, I tried them a lot). Pianoteq delivers, out of the box.

The disadvantage for us, EvilDragon, is that now we have to find 105-key controllers to take advantage of Pianoteq's enhanced note range. The extra bottom octave is frightening - in a good way, and goes way lower than even this bad boy... the next Pianoteq model?

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:42 pm

Those piano's are gorgeous!

Akos Janca · Post by **Akos Janca** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:18 am

Thank you for this very interesting hairsplitting topic and all examples.

Generally I agree with Martin Hines and Lando. And it's also a matter of personal preference.

I believe running a MIDI file is not a perfect test to compare different instruments. (A MIDI file is like a robot playing always similarly, no matter what. But we would play even the same piece DIFFERENTLY when using another instrument or only another controller keyboard or sound engine. There is a unique continuous interaction between us and the piano that affects every note and the final the result.)

I think when we carefully listen to for example Stuart & Sons linked above then we know the answer - no emulation is good enough. The real thing wins.

Regarding Kronos I think Korg made very playable and usable (sample-based) acoustic piano emulations in OASYS. If Kronos will be similar or better then it will be perfect for a workstation.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:42 am

Akos Janca wrote: Regarding Kronos I think Korg made very playable and usable (sample-based) acoustic piano emulations in OASYS. If Kronos will be similar or better then it will be perfect for a workstation.

No doubt Kronos will be the best workstation Korg has ever unleashed upon us. The demos sound fantastic for a workstation.

In 1988, I just about pissed myself when I took delivery of my M1. In 1995 I almost crapped my pants when I brought my Trinity home, and then pretty much convulsed when I had the MOSS board installed. If I were to buy a Kronos, I'm sure I'd have an aneurysm - if it were not for the fact that software instruments now rule the roost.

Workstations have always been "compromise instruments"... jacks of all trades but masters of none. Kronos has some sweet cards up its sleeve, no question about it, but as Dan once said on this forum, "I prefer quality over a low budget menagerie", or words to that effect. Five years back, I would have agreed that what's in Kronos is not a "low budget menagerie", but today there are so many software instruments that blow each and every component in Kronos straight out of the water, that I'd have to think long and hard before deciding whether or not "having it all" under one hood is the best route for me on a professional level.

Still, for a workstation, Kronos appeals, for now at least. As did my M1 and Trinity V3. They're still classics in my mind, as OASYS and Kronos will be - well OASYS already is one if "awesome discontinued workstation" qualifies for such status

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:48 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:
Akos Janca wrote: Regarding Kronos I think Korg made very playable and usable (sample-based) acoustic piano emulations in OASYS. If Kronos will be similar or better then it will be perfect for a workstation.
No doubt Kronos will be the best workstation Korg has ever unleashed upon us. The demos sound fantastic for a workstation.

In 1988, I just about pissed myself when I took delivery of my M1. In 1995 I almost crapped my pants when I brought my Trinity home, and then pretty much convulsed when I had the MOSS board installed. If I were to buy a Kronos, I'm sure I'd have an aneurysm - if it were not for the fact that software instruments now rule the roost.

Workstations have always been "compromise instruments"... jacks of all trades but masters of none. Kronos has some sweet cards up its sleeve, no question about it, but as Dan once said on this forum, "I prefer quality over a low budget menagerie", or words to that effect. Five years back, I would have agreed that what's in Kronos is not a "low budget menagerie", but today there are so many software instruments that blow each and every component in Kronos straight out of the water, that I'd have to think long and hard before deciding whether or not "having it all" under one hood is the best route for me on a professional level.

Still, for a workstation, Kronos appeals, for now at least. As did my M1 and Trinity V3. They're still classics in my mind, as OASYS and Kronos will be - well OASYS already is one if "awesome discontinued workstation" qualifies for such status

"but today there are so many software instruments that blow each and every component in Kronos straight out of the water, that I'd have to think"

do us a favor. List all software instruments ( that are similar to the Kronos
components, categories, etc) and give their prices.

Lets see that software instrument total.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:04 am

Omnisphere and Kontakt get you pretty darn deep. After that, you have GSi VB3 for some spankin' great Hammonds, u-he ACE, Zebra 2 and VAZ Modular for analog goodness, Reaktor 5 for freaking everything, etc.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:41 am

GregC wrote:
do us a favor. List all software instruments ( that are similar to the Kronos
components, categories, etc) and give their prices.

Lets see that software instrument total.

OK!

NI Komplete 7 - 499 USD...

...or we can cherrypick:

SGX-1 Premium Piano - surpassed by far by Pianoteq 3 - 349 euros

EP-1 MDS Electric Piano - at least equalled by Pianoteq 3 - 89 euros (and includes the Clavinet and wicked good "Rock Piano" add-ons as well)

CX-3 Tonewheel Organ - the original NI B4II has the real deal sound and feel, way better than the standalone CX-3 I used to own (can't remember the price though - 99 USD I think)

HD-1 High Definition Synthesizer - blown sky high out of the water by Omnisphere -469 USD

AL-1 Analog Synthesizer - Omnisphere again

MS-20EX Legacy Analog Collection - maybe 25 bucks on iPad now but I got in early for 14.99... and it's covered in the original Korg Legacy Collection, around 200 street as I recall

PolySix Legacy Analog Collection - again, original Legacy Collection (may we include this in the above price?)

STR-1 Plucked String Synthesizer - AAS Modeling Collection (much more than strings... Tassman 4, Ultra Analog VA-1, Lounge Lizard EP3, String Studio VS-1, Strum Acoustic GS-1, Strum Electric GS-1) - 399 CAD street

MOD-7 Waveshaping VPM Synthesizer - NI FM8, 99 USD back in the day, but now available in Komplete 7

You can toss in MacBook Pro and a decent controller and still come in under the 61's projected price, and have way more flexibility

I buy all the software i use, but the less scrupulous can do much better on the entry price

mrk · Post by **mrk** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:15 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:MS-20EX Legacy Analog Collection - maybe 25 bucks on iPad now but I got in early for 14.99... and it's covered in the original Korg Legacy Collection, around 200 street as I recall

I couldn't instantly find it, but there was a YouTube video comparing the iMS20 vs. the real thing. If the Kronos sounds like the iMS20, then you're right, but iMS20 is not even close to the hardware version.

Akos Janca · Post by **Akos Janca** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:22 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:
GregC wrote:
do us a favor. List all software instruments ( that are similar to the Kronos
components, categories, etc) and give their prices.

Lets see that software instrument total.
OK!

NI Komplete 7 - 499 USD...

...or we can cherrypick:

SGX-1 Premium Piano - surpassed by far by Pianoteq 3 - 349 euros

EP-1 MDS Electric Piano - at least equalled by Pianoteq 3 - 89 euros (and includes the Clavinet and wicked good "Rock Piano" add-ons as well)

CX-3 Tonewheel Organ - the original NI B4II has the real deal sound and feel, way better than the standalone CX-3 I used to own (can't remember the price though - 99 USD I think)

HD-1 High Definition Synthesizer - blown sky high out of the water by Omnisphere -469 USD

AL-1 Analog Synthesizer - Omnisphere again

MS-20EX Legacy Analog Collection - maybe 25 bucks on iPad now but I got in early for 14.99... and it's covered in the original Korg Legacy Collection, around 200 street as I recall

PolySix Legacy Analog Collection - again, original Legacy Collection (may we include this in the above price?)

STR-1 Plucked String Synthesizer - AAS Modeling Collection (much more than strings... Tassman 4, Ultra Analog VA-1, Lounge Lizard EP3, String Studio VS-1, Strum Acoustic GS-1, Strum Electric GS-1) - 399 CAD street

MOD-7 Waveshaping VPM Synthesizer - NI FM8, 99 USD back in the day, but now available in Komplete 7

Thank you for the list. I really don't get the point. You like software. Kronos IS a top quality software instrument.

Actually: more instruments with the best integration that such systems can provide. It has many advantages that we can't get from the setup listed above. This is already discussed in details in several topics, please search the OASYS section of the forum for more info.

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:You can toss in MacBook Pro and a decent controller and still come in under the 61's projected price, and have way more flexibility

From a point of view, yes. You can add another engine to the setup above if you are not satisfied with it

(then I guess you might be not only a musician).

But:
1) you will have to live with the stress thinking about the stability of the system all the time (especially on stage),
2) you will have to configure/optimize the elements of the system to work perfectly together (and it's not a one-off process),
3) you will have to toss also an exceptional quality soundcard with audio and digital connections (missing from your setup above),
4) we could also discuss the "decent" controller you mentioned (Kronos seems to be much better than decent with all controllers, the great keybed and the wonderful touchscreen),
5) and don't forget your extra cables and stands.
You can call it a flexible system - and it is - but I also consider it a fragile and messy solution. Not reliable and not really suitable for a performing musician.

With Kronos you wouldn't have these problems. It's all done on highest level. You can sit and play immediately. Then you can learn and improve yourself. As a musician you can develop an intimate relation with your instrument, etc. This what I prefer.

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:I buy all the software i use, but the less scrupulous can do much better on the entry price

I don't think the software manufacturers on your list would like this suggestion

, and it shouldn't be an argument in this discussion.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:54 pm

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:
GregC wrote:
do us a favor. List all software instruments ( that are similar to the Kronos
components, categories, etc) and give their prices.

Lets see that software instrument total.
OK!

NI Komplete 7 - 499 USD...

...or we can cherrypick:

SGX-1 Premium Piano - surpassed by far by Pianoteq 3 - 349 euros

EP-1 MDS Electric Piano - at least equalled by Pianoteq 3 - 89 euros (and includes the Clavinet and wicked good "Rock Piano" add-ons as well)

CX-3 Tonewheel Organ - the original NI B4II has the real deal sound and feel, way better than the standalone CX-3 I used to own (can't remember the price though - 99 USD I think)

HD-1 High Definition Synthesizer - blown sky high out of the water by Omnisphere -469 USD

AL-1 Analog Synthesizer - Omnisphere again

MS-20EX Legacy Analog Collection - maybe 25 bucks on iPad now but I got in early for 14.99... and it's covered in the original Korg Legacy Collection, around 200 street as I recall

PolySix Legacy Analog Collection - again, original Legacy Collection (may we include this in the above price?)

STR-1 Plucked String Synthesizer - AAS Modeling Collection (much more than strings... Tassman 4, Ultra Analog VA-1, Lounge Lizard EP3, String Studio VS-1, Strum Acoustic GS-1, Strum Electric GS-1) - 399 CAD street

MOD-7 Waveshaping VPM Synthesizer - NI FM8, 99 USD back in the day, but now available in Komplete 7

You can toss in MacBook Pro and a decent controller and still come in under the 61's projected price, and have way more flexibility

I buy all the software i use, but the less scrupulous can do much better on the entry price

I suppose you don't need an audio interface ?

And where is the " Combi creator " in your software list ?

would you be happy with a cheap midi controller ?

is Logic free ? ( pick your DAW, etc)