New Jordan Rudess video

[EXer]

I really don't understand how one can say that the RH3 *is* horrible. A keyboard action is a very personal matter.

My preferred piano action type kb is the Roland PHA III; with its simulated escapement it's the closest to a real grand piano, without being too heavy.

Nevetheless I would not say that Yamaha, Korg (RH3 or other) or Kawai keyboards are bad (I would make an exception for the CMEs; they are actually terrible).

[McHale]

The RH3 is a good keybed for piano playing. It is not a good keyboard for organ and fast lead playing. If the RH3 was adequate at organ playing, John wouldn't use two Kronos' in the referenced demo. There's certainly no other reason to switch keyboards other than keybeds. What's sad is, he's not doing anything overly complicated on the 61 and the 88 can't even handle that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbXsxAeOctg

I play a lot of organ and fast leads and the RH3 is inadequate for what I play. The more I play it, the more I realize it.

[EXer]

The RH3 is a good keybed for piano playing. It is not a good keyboard for organ and fast lead playing.

I understand what you mean (although I'm not an organist): my basic setup consists in a 88 piano action master kb (Roland RD-700) complemented by a 76 semi weighted kb (Yamaha EX5) and rack modules. Btw, that's the reason why I would appreciate a 76 semi weighted keys Kronos (it would replace my ageing EX5).

But what you say is true about every piano action type kb, not especially about the RH3...

[McHale]

But what you say is true about every piano action type kb, not especially about the RH3...

Probably, but I do play real pianos that CAN keep up with my fast solos and I do know Billy Joel uses is able to still play his songs live that the RH3 can not.

The Kronos has 9 engines, only 2 of which naturally uses a piano keybed. Does that mean that the next CX-3 modeling organ will also have weighted keys because they seem to be going the weighted keys route? That would make as much sense IMHO.

[JimH]

No doubting the fact that he is a gifted keyboard player, but I find it almost impossible to connect with what he's playing. Far too many notes to be truly meaningful melodies to me. It's like trying to listen to music without emotion.

I thought it was just me and I didn't want to say anything. But I have a similar impression. No doubt JR is immensely skilled and a nice guy, and I understand he's most likely improvising at the NAMM show where his job is to demonstrate the gear, not show off his own music.
But whenever I listen to him play (so far) I just don't hear anything musically interesting to me. So I don't feel like searching for more. It's not so much that there's no emotion, although I know what you mean. I guess I just don't hear any interesting musical themes, just a lot of notes. Compare to a guy like Rick Wakeman. Granted, Wakeman can spread himself too thin and when he goes off on some endless improvised solos it can be crap. But he's also done a lot of interesting melodic themes like Birdman of Alcatraz, Journey, Catherine Howard, etc. When he plays a million notes it's usually within and around the context of those melodic ideas. Maybe it's just about being a good writer of music

[rrricky rrrecordo]

I think JR does a pretty good job of demonstrating Kronos in this video.

Yes, his motifs are generally simple little affairs, and he does tend to be liberal with the trills and arpeggios (which are also quite simple really though, if one "listens quickly"). Still, I can hear some nice voice leading and contrapuntal bits throughout his presentation that I find quite pleasing, and for the most part, I "get" where he's going.

It's difficult to develop a musical idea to its full potential within the context of a "sales pitch" that has to cover a variety of instrumental sounds and musical styles within in a relatively short period of time. With this in mind, I reckon he did ok

[synthguy]

I'm mostly with everyone. I love JR and his blistering fast fingers. But... yes, he does w*nk a lot.

He produced an album a few years ago, I think it was "Feeding the Wheel," and I wanted to like it, but it lacked the musical passion in his other works people harp about. But he has produced albums I'm very much in love with, such as "Listen," "Liquid Tension Experiment" and "Rudess Morgenstein Project," and there are a few others where he has his muse going. But as others have said, he does get lost in streams of notes too often, and doesn't seem to know consistently how to handle a proper solo.

Dream Theater is another story all its own. I think of them as the Saga of prog-metal, and I'm not a huge fan of prog-metal to start with. In my personal opinion, they hardly ever achieve the greatness they're aiming for. They have done some incredible tunes, when they aren't trying to be Pantera or Metallica. But for the most part, whether Kevin Moore was in the group or not, most of their stuff sounds like it was pieced together from jam sessions and lacks thought, polish and once again, musical passion.

Here's hoping that both of them find their grooves though, DT and JR both are loaded with talent.

[Lando]

Probably, but I do play real pianos that CAN keep up with my fast solos and I do know Billy Joel uses is able to still play his songs live that the RH3 can not.

I don't really understand...is the RH3 keybed in itself not fast enough for the fast solos? I understand it's harder to play synth and organ on a weighted, mainly because we are used to other "feels" from the keyboard, but impossible?

At least Rudess can play crazy wicked fast synth leads on the 88, but sadly none uf us have his technique..

[Lando]

Great he can play fast - but the human ear (IMHO) can only process so many notes and their meaning musically, so there is a point where (musically) it loses the plot.

I don't agree with this, I belive that it is, as most other musical things, a matter of learning. After all, it isn't much different from what Coltrane did in the 60s, only immensly less complicated harmonically (at least what we see in this demo where he solos modally instead of lets say Coltrane whose chords shifted sometimes seveal times/bar in very high tempos). Check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheets_of_sound for a simple explanation of the improvisation style.

I listen to the patterns and chords the notes produce, rather than hearing each note separated, and if it has a musical meaning and a clear sense of direction I definitly can find it beautiful, and at least to me some parts in this video improvisation was. Up to each ones taste of course, but that the human ear cannot process that fast music just isn't true.

[EnjoyRC]

Anyway... guess what I'm trying to say here is when it comes to Jordan, yeah he's one hell of a gifted keyboard player. I'd just like to hear him play something without trying to cram in a million notes so I can feel the emotion and connect in some way to the sounds and melodies he's playing. His demonstrations are more like him showing how fast of a keyboard player he is while taking all the focus away from the actual keyboard.

Regards
Sharp.

A modern day Mozart!!!

[cello]

Great he can play fast - but the human ear (IMHO) can only process so many notes and their meaning musically, so there is a point where (musically) it loses the plot.

I don't agree with this, I belive that it is, as most other musical things, a matter of learning. After all, it isn't much different from what Coltrane did in the 60s, only immensly less complicated harmonically (at least what we see in this demo where he solos modally instead of lets say Coltrane whose chords shifted sometimes seveal times/bar in very high tempos). Check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheets_of_sound for a simple explanation of the improvisation style.

I listen to the patterns and chords the notes produce, rather than hearing each note separated, and if it has a musical meaning and a clear sense of direction I definitly can find it beautiful, and at least to me some parts in this video improvisation was. Up to each ones taste of course, but that the human ear cannot process that fast music just isn't true.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree!

Every notation nonsense (ie fast notes) can be understood progressively as there are only a few notes that can be used in a meaningful melodic or harmonic progression. My point was that the extra notes that are NOT meaningful to the progression in mind don't get processed and don't add musically to what's going on.

When my wife is practising very complex cello concertos for performance there will be many challenging written (ie not improvised) progressions. We sit down and analyse which of the many ones are the notes to 'hit' square on. The others are not musically significant. Generally, they are called leading notes that leads the listener from one musical event to another.

My point about JR is that (FOR ME), the musical, leading events are missing amid a mish-mash of useless notes (musically, theoretically) hence add no value. The only value remaining is what he thinks he is doing - which is showing off.

Nothing wrong with that - he's making more money out of music than I am! But if you analyse the musical events going on, they are merely extensions of the same thing, become boring, and speed of note production doesn't register with the mind as being clever or significant.

[cello]

Anyway... guess what I'm trying to say here is when it comes to Jordan, yeah he's one hell of a gifted keyboard player. I'd just like to hear him play something without trying to cram in a million notes so I can feel the emotion and connect in some way to the sounds and melodies he's playing. His demonstrations are more like him showing how fast of a keyboard player he is while taking all the focus away from the actual keyboard.

Regards
Sharp.

A modern day Mozart!!!

LOL - and which notes would you like me to remove?

[Akos Janca]

I watched the whole video.

Jordan mentions important things like inspiration, quality, reliability etc.
Besides that he just plays great I think. I understand what he says musically. I like his arpeggios. I like his strong classical pianist background. I can follow and enjoy his improvisations. So I think the demo was OK (not his best one, understandable - he just recovered from some illness).

He has his own unique style. It just a matter of taste - not for everybody. He is absolutely a good choice of Korg. I see a gifted, open-minded serious professional artist devoted to music and a humble, friendly and humorous guy at the same time.

He makes demonstrations also for other companies? What's the problem? I suppose he doesn't have an exclusive contract with anybody.

PS. I don't blindly adore everything he does - but I respect him. Regarding his Dream Theater work I don't want to debate (off topic!). I just like DT.

PS2. Cello has some points. But it was an improvised demo.

[Lando]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree!

Every notation nonsense (ie fast notes) can be understood progressively as there are only a few notes that can be used in a meaningful melodic or harmonic progression. My point was that the extra notes that are NOT meaningful to the progression in mind don't get processed and don't add musically to what's going on.

When my wife is practising very complex cello concertos for performance there will be many challenging written (ie not improvised) progressions. We sit down and analyse which of the many ones are the notes to 'hit' square on. The others are not musically significant. Generally, they are called leading notes that leads the listener from one musical event to another.

My point about JR is that (FOR ME), the musical, leading events are missing amid a mish-mash of useless notes (musically, theoretically) hence add no value. The only value remaining is what he thinks he is doing - which is showing off.

Nothing wrong with that - he's making more money out of music than I am! But if you analyse the musical events going on, they are merely extensions of the same thing, become boring, and speed of note production doesn't register with the mind as being clever or significant.

Rudess aside (I also think he is sometimes just showing off) but more interestingly on the subject of fast notes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmNleBoJWyw

The Doctor Gradus, first piece, one I love and have played lots.
Some notes are definitly more important than others, as a matter of fact 1/4 are the important ones, and 3/4 are fillers (talking about the right hand melody here), BUT they couldn't be removed without the music losing many things, among them:

Momentum
Energy
Flow
Harmony (in a chord sense I mean).

I definitly can both process and appriciate all of the notes, even if they are fast and I belive I'm not alone in this

Besides, picking out the most important notes and points is in no way unique to fast music, the same can be done in slow music aswell, and is a huge help in learning how to play a piece the right way. What I don't belive, at all, is that makes the rest of the notes meaningless, not at all, without them the important ones would be isolated islands, connected to nothing and with a lack of purpose...

[peter_schwartz]

Not every note has to have weight, but all notes are musically significant.

1. Beethoven 3rd piano concerto, first movement, first piano entrance, first phrase. Fast c minor scale played very quickly and landing on the C an octave higher which is then held. You can't say that the notes leading up to that C are meaningless because they define the overall gesture.

2. Live and Let Die (Wings), there are flute/piccolo flurries in the orchestration, very fast runs up to a high G. You don't hear the notes of the run itself very distinctly, but you certainly hear the high G accented. But without those run-up notes, the gesture would be a very boring accented G.

3. If a composer notates, or an improvisor plays, any notes at all, they're all meaningful whether they're meant to be heard individually or part of an overall gesture.

4. As Joey DiFrancesco or JR do, they can play very quickly and they likely hear every single note not only in their head but as they're playing them. But for argument's sake, even if some of those notes are passing tones which they play instinctively rather than hearing them in their head prior to playing them, their choice of notes is either certainly deliberate and therefore meaningful, or, a series of happy accidents that worked out so nicely that they decided not to do "take 2".