Why would Korg do it?

[Shakil]

Yes, I know that the JP-80 does not equal the Kronos at all - the Kronos is way more powerful - BUT - they both cost roughly the same amount so can be compared in terms of the investment made in the relative companies and the build quality of the offered products (for the comparable budget).

That means you can't compare them. If they cost same, but one have far less powerful, then they are not same to compare. You do know what Roland did with their flagship Fantom-G , right?

[cello]

Yes, I know that the JP-80 does not equal the Kronos at all - the Kronos is way more powerful - BUT - they both cost roughly the same amount so can be compared in terms of the investment made in the relative companies and the build quality of the offered products (for the comparable budget).

That means you can't compare them. If they cost same, but one have far less powerful, then they are not same to compare. You do know what Roland did with their flagship Fantom-G , right?

Whilst I agree they cannot be compared on sonic source options or workstation-type function, they can be compared on budget - do I spend £3,000 on this; or that?

Well, if you must reduce to functions and progress - the JP-80 shortly gets an OS release to use the wireless adapter (a separate purchase) to connect with the iPad editor.

How's the Kronos editor - you love it? Is it on the iPad? Does it connect wirelessly?

So again, I have never seen the Kronos as a marvel of progess - it's a remake of a truly progressive keyboard (that was built the right way). The K Polysix is exactly the same as the 2005 OASYS version - except it is on a smaller, higher resolution screen. Same with the MS 20. Hardly progress - AL-1 etc; were all available in 2005.

But yes, there have been SSD, SST, library progresses made with the K - no doubt other tweaks too (hi-res screen; higher ppq in seq).

But other companies are making progress - in relation to the investment made in the platform. And that is my point - it can't be stated that other companies aren't making progress for the investment made. In some ways other companies are way ahead of Korg for reasons I outlined (better warranty, better build quality, no OS issues, iPad editor - perhaps should say useful editor - and wireless too).

Don't get me wrong I want Korg to be top of the tree - but at the moment, they're relying on a 2005 platform (no doubt to claw back R&D costs), but they are simply augmenting that platform - not progressing.

PS Don't have a clue about the Fantom-G - tried it; hated it so have no interest in what may or may not have happened with it. What I do know is that it's not even close to OASYS power

[danmusician]

Yes, I know that the JP-80 does not equal the Kronos at all - the Kronos is way more powerful - BUT - they both cost roughly the same amount so can be compared in terms of the investment made in the relative companies and the build quality of the offered products (for the comparable budget).

Since they cost roughly the same, but the Kronos does "way more," than to follow your argument, if the Kronos had the same build quality, it would have cost "way more." in that case, I say kudos to Korg for trying to put way more in a keyboard and yet keep the cost down. (That said, I don't accept the premise of your argument in the first place.)

Cello, in all seriousness, you are a fine musician and I respect you. I don't understand why you hang around the Kronos board since you don't own one. You clearly love your OASYS and I don't blame you. I got rid of my M3. I can't imagine hanging around the M3 board to tell those users the reasons why I couldn't wait to get rid of it and get a Kronos.

[blinkofanI]

The Kronos can't be compared to anything on the market right now. When the other big guns bring something similar, they'll probably have noisy fans, etc. Then, we will be able to compare and see if Korg goofed on this. Until then, you can,t say...

Blink

[Ojustaboo]

Summers2, you are exactly the type of musician many of us have worried about on these boards. Yes, there have been problems. But they have been exaggerated on these boards. For a potential buyer researching as you did, you get a false impression of the quality of the instrument when you come here.

In my case, I bought a 73 last summer. It was damaged in a car accident. I received insurance money to replace it. I could have purchased anything. I got another 73.

My first one did NOT have the keybed problem, the second one did. Neither have the fan problem or any of the other issues listed here.

But have they been exaggerated?

The only reason I held off getting a Kronos and went the s/w route was because of my doubts about it's quality gained from amongst other places, here.

I think I'm correct in saying Pianomanchuck had 3 different Kronos before he got one that worked?

You had the keyboard problem on one out of two.

That to me doesn't look like any problem has been exaggerated.

Personally I get the opposite impression that those with no problems are the ones exaggerating. Well that might not be the correct phrase to use, to put it another way when various problems were being discussed and various people said they had doubts about it's quality, some of those with no problems would come down on them like a ton of bricks, driving many away from the forum and generally making a discussion turn into a slanging match.

I think that especially in it's early days, those people saying go and buy one the problems are exaggerated, were the ones exaggerating as from person after person who did buy one, far far too many did have problems of either noisy fans, key bed or both.

Some people do want a good editor that works properly in their DAW, those that complain about the Kronos editor have often had the same group of Kronos owners come down on them sometimes even accusing them/implying they are stupid (who on earth buys an instrument purely based on it's editor ...).

The Kronos is a superb machine, I know that, I've played one. But with the unreliabliity of the problems I could not warrent 3K on one until I knew for a fact that the reliability has been fixed.

The fact that some appear to be fine and others don't, only make me think their quality control cant be that good, or else something else is seriously wrong.

Why did some boards have the problem and not others? I would expect either a bad batch or all to have a problem if there was a problem with the parts. Is it a case of the earlier ones could get the problem if something moves slightly ( don't know, just guessing)?

I was in my local music store a few weeks ago talking about the Kronos, they didn't have the 88 on display that time (did the previous time I was there). I asked him about the keybed problem and he said it was weird, sometimes they could produce it on the 88 Kronos when they did have it on display, other times for days at a time, it didn't seem to be there.

Why are some fans almost silent yet others need replacing? I'd expect that on a cheap CPU fan, but on a 3K piece of kit, that is simply unacceptable and while personally I'd have no problems replacing the fan for a silent one, its things like that that make me hold on to my 3K (I don't expect to have to do this on a piece of kit costing 3k)

For me (and the vast majority of home users that aren't very rich), a 3K outlay would be the most I've ever spent on a synth and for that money I expect the BEST, not just in creativity from the point of the sound development, streaming from SSD point of view, but from the care put into and the quality of the build too.

I am very disappointed with Korg over the Kronos.. When I say these things, some people say as I don't own one, I should shut up, others tell me they don't understand why I still keep going on about it.

The reason I go on about it so much is that I really really want one (and would have been an owner by now if it wasn't for these things) but I also want a good editor with it and I also want guaranteed build quality too.

Yes all electrical goods can suffer from failures, I'm well aware of that. But a random failure from a part that breaks is different from a fault many people are experiencing.

I don't want to spend 3K on a board with the assurances that if known problem X shows up, Korg will fix it for free, I want to know that as Korg is aware of problem X, they will make sure no retailer sends a Kronos out of the door with that problem present. It's not a lot to ask.

I honestly get the impression that had the Kronos sold in the numbers the Xbox 360 did, it's problems would be on the scale of the 360's red ring of death (I still have one of the early original 360's and have never experienced any problems with it, but I'm not going to defend them when there obviously was a big problem). Sure some of you with no problems will come along and tell me I'm wrong, yet many people know many other people that are well aware of the key bed problems etc and have been put off buying a Kronos, and those people have never even visited the Korg forum.

Things like a professional musical instrument don't get a bad name for no reason, if it was just a few people experiencing the problem,, there would be far far far far far more people (and music store workers) making this well known and those few complainers would be ignored. Fact that the other opinion has got around (and from my conversation with my local music store), and that I'm still reading of people getting the Kronos now with problems, I don't think it's exaggerated at all.

No korg should be being sent to customers by any authorised retailer with either a noisy fan or the keybed problem.

I did have hopes that maybe the new editor would be better, but if I understand what I read in another thread correctly sound quest are writing this one too, Going from what and how they have responded to the comments about the existing editor, I don't hold much hope for the new version to be any better at all and I really really really hope I'm proven wrong.

[Ojustaboo]

With all of the(real) hardware and software problems being discussed on Korg forums, why would Korg come out with a new Kronos and never mention the extremely serious problems that their Kronos customers are having with the original.

Unless they corrected a lot of the problems and are not saying so for obvious reasons. If so, what about those who have the old Kronos.

I wonder why Korg did it.

Presuming they are now using much better fans, if I was korg, in part of the info about the X version, without admitting (not good for business) the problems of the original, I would have got the marketing bods to say words along the lines of, but better than ( too tired to think properly right now)

-------------
Improved keyboard sensors *
New quieter fan *

*note: these improvements have also been implemented on the later batches of the original Kronos
--------------

True for original owners it could devalue the second hand worth, but in my opinion the x version already does this regardless.

If I don't end up buying one new, I will end up getting a second hand one at some point and it will HAVE to be the X version

[Mthomashow]

I've got a Korg Kronos 61. I bought it last June. I think it's a terrific keyboard, probably the best I've ever owned. I like everything about it except the annoying fan (not insignificant). Almost to the day when the warranty expired, the system started to repeatedly fail. Amazingly, even though it was only one week past the expiration of the warranty, Korg (the offices in NY) would not let me take it to a local authorized Korg dealer under the original warranty. When I told them I bought it through Sweetwater and I had a two year warranty with them, they said that's what I should do. That was very disappointing and poor consumer support, but I figured what the heck, I'll do that. Sweetwater was very surprised that Korg wouldn't honor the warranty. Sweetwater has been very responsive.

Bottom line...I have to pay shipping and insurance both ways, I've got to deal with packing it up, and I'll be without the board for at least a month if not longer.

Am I pissed? Well, I don't get pissed about things like this. I have a Nord Stage Classic and a Nord Wave, with great software synths so there's plenty to keep me busy. I was plenty happy before I got the Kronos. And I'm looking forward to the day when I get it back, although I'll be worried about other things that might go wrong, and conceivably (as much as I've enjoyed it), I might sell it. Once I start playing it though........

But I would really think twice before buying another Korg instrument given my experience with this, the inflexible customer service response, all of the wonderful qualities of the synth notwithstanding.

Footnote...I had a Korg M3 previously. After two years of gentle use in my home studio, the lettering came off the dials and pads. The screen
became sporadically unresponsive. I sold it when I got the Kronos.

I love Korg's innovative approach. But there is definitely a quality control pattern here.

[tdwctdwc]

So i have this beautiful gorgeous ceiling fan at my fine dining restaurant , made of gold. But sometimes it makes a slight noise. Some customers tell me about the noise , as they cant stand it , while others just enjoy looking at it , all shiny and gold , enjoying the food , not even bothered a bit by the slight noise, especially with the music playing in the background

I decide to fix the noise. Done. Fixed.

Now , wouldnt be so stupid to put a sign outside the restaurant for the NEW customers to see , that says : " Now renovated with an updated fan that doesnt make noise ! " ?

That would be extremly dumb marketing for my restaurant , not to mention very very stupid to do so.

As for the old customers , well , they will notice that as soon as they come back to eat again.

R

[Ojustaboo]

So i have this beautiful gorgeous ceiling fan at my fine dining restaurant , made of gold. But sometimes it makes a slight noise. Some customers tell me about the noise , as they cant stand it , while others just enjoy looking at it , all shiny and gold.

I decide to fix the noise. Done. Fixed.

Now , wouldnt be so stupid to put a sign outside the restaurant for the NEW customers to see , that says : " Now renovated with an updated fan that doesnt make noise ! " ?

That would be extremly dumb marketing for my restaurant , not to mention very very stupid to do so.

R

Of course with your ceiling fan example your presuming it's all down to the various customers hearing.

What if you owned a chain of 100 fine dining restaurants, had the gold ceiling fan in 40 of your restaurants, but in about half of these, customers were constantly complaining about the fan noise being too loud.

You then visit a selection of the restaurants, both those with no complaints and those with lots.

You notice a huge difference between the noise level of those where you've had no complaints and those where you've had complaints.

You contact the manufacture, after all you paid a lot for these gold fans, they ask you to pack up the fans and send them back and they will fix them free of charge.

You do this, but you don't have your old fans any longer hence your restaurant has pretty stale air while the fans are away for repair (the Kronos owner who only has that one keyboard, doesn't want to be keyboard less while a known fault is fixed)

A month later you spend a lot on another 10 gold fans for some of you're other restaurants. But about half of these also have to be returned due to the same problem.

You are now reluctant to replace the fans in your remaining restaurants unless you can somehow be guaranteed the new ones won't have this known problem.

You talk to other restaurant owners about your experiance, many of them would also like these gold fans, but don't want to spend that money if there still might be problems with them.

Then the fan manufacture announced gold fan model x. Almost the same as the other fan but now stating it has a new even quieter fan mechanism (it doesn't mention there was a problem with the old one, just states the new one is better).

You are now happy to buy the new model knowing that by doing so you know it no longer has the known fault.

Your friends hear about the new model and also get the same message that the problem is now fixed, they too feel confident spending their money.

Seems logical to me?

[tdwctdwc]

So i have this beautiful gorgeous ceiling fan at my fine dining restaurant , made of gold. But sometimes it makes a slight noise. Some customers tell me about the noise , as they cant stand it , while others just enjoy looking at it , all shiny and gold.

I decide to fix the noise. Done. Fixed.

Now , wouldnt be so stupid to put a sign outside the restaurant for the NEW customers to see , that says : " Now renovated with an updated fan that doesnt make noise ! " ?

That would be extremly dumb marketing for my restaurant , not to mention very very stupid to do so.

R

Of course with your ceiling fan example your presuming it's all down to the various customers hearing.

What if you owned a chain of 100 fine dining restaurants, had the gold ceiling fan in 40 of your restaurants, but in about half of these, customers were constantly complaining about the fan noise being too loud.

Then i renovate all of them and fix all the fans in all branches , but NEVER NEVER put that dreadfull sign outside.

[Ojustaboo]

Then i renovate all of them and fix all the fans in all branches , but NEVER NEVER put that dreadfull sign outside.

But you aren't the fan maker, you have brought it and installed it in your restaurant. It's the fan maker that needs people to know the problems fixed (in a way that doesn't admit to there being a problem)

Anyway, if korg had done as you suggest, once it became apparent there was a problem with some kronos's, made sure that no authorised retailer sent any Kronos out of the door with a noisy fan or the keybed problem, then I doubt this thread would actually exist.

As I said in my earlier post, it would need to be worded better than I have done.

They don't have to point out a products failings when they say something is improved. But by saying it is improved, those with concerns would have those concerns addressed, and those that were blissfully unaware, would still think they were getting a better product.

To give a silly example, I have the new iPad. I have bad eyesight. I used to own a 7" Samsung tablet. I preferred the Samsung to the iPad 2 because when I looked at writing on the screen, it might have been a smaller screen, but to me, it was way clearer than the iPad 2.

When they brought out the iPad 3, Apple didn't put down the iPad 2, they just said how good the improved screen was.

That gave me the inclination to take a look, I liked the improvement and am typing on it now.

While that example isn't about a known problem, it's the same sort of marketing strategy, they point out what's better without putting the previous product down, and that is what Korg could have done with their description about the Kronos X.

Also we need to bear in mind that most people who are about to spend 3k on anything, will do a quick google for other peoples experiences before they part with their money anyway, and most people that do google the Kronos, will come across the loud fan and keybed problems, hence reading the kronos X has a new quieter fan and improved key sensors is more likely to get them to part with their money than saying nothing.

[burningbusch]

So again, I have never seen the Kronos as a marvel of progess - it's a remake of a truly progressive keyboard (that was built the right way). The K Polysix is exactly the same as the 2005 OASYS version - except it is on a smaller, higher resolution screen. Same with the MS 20. Hardly progress - AL-1 etc; were all available in 2005.

But yes, there have been SSD, SST, library progresses made with the K - no doubt other tweaks too (hi-res screen; higher ppq in seq).

But other companies are making progress - in relation to the investment made in the platform. And that is my point - it can't be stated that other companies aren't making progress for the investment made. In some ways other companies are way ahead of Korg for reasons I outlined (better warranty, better build quality, no OS issues, iPad editor - perhaps should say useful editor - and wireless too).

Don't get me wrong I want Korg to be top of the tree - but at the moment, they're relying on a 2005 platform (no doubt to claw back R&D costs), but they are simply augmenting that platform - not progressing.

The most important technology to come out of software-based synthesis is the streaming of large sample libraries from disk. It completely revolutionized sampling, gave users a massive increase in quality & quantity and greatly reduced load times. The Kronos is the only hardware platform with this technology and now with 2.0 we have the streaming of user samples as well. Now a user can bring in the best-of-the-best from their libraries and have them available in a hardware platform with INSTANT access and much lower latency than software-based solutions. This is not 2005 technology (in a hardware synth). The OASYS didn't have it, nor did it have 16 velocity layers at the program level (critical for many large libraries). I've already brought over my own 16 velocity layer Rhodes sample and converted CineSamples Piano in Blue. I expect to do a LOT more with 2.0.

The flash ROM that you find in Yamaha, Nord and Kurzweil keyboards is much, much more limiting. It inches things forward but nothing has really changed as a result. It was easy for them to implement as their sampling technology didn't have to change--instead of volatile RAM it's now non-volatile.

Let's also not forget about the SGX-1 and EP-1 engines which are excellent. The KRONOS is a sampling powerhouse. With 2.0 users will be able to add 100+GB of SSD. Wake me up when the others give me that kind of power.

I really don't get why an iPad editor is something to get exited about. I have a touch screen on the Kronos that's perfectly positioned for editing and playing, directly connected to the hardware.

Busch.

[1jordyzzz]

After reading all the complaints,(some of it has to be true) why would anyone buy a Kronos? I am serious, I wonder why.

Simple.. no other keyboards there is as good as kronos (the sounds, and the feature)...

[danmusician]

Summers2, you are exactly the type of musician many of us have worried about on these boards. Yes, there have been problems. But they have been exaggerated on these boards. For a potential buyer researching as you did, you get a false impression of the quality of the instrument when you come here.

In my case, I bought a 73 last summer. It was damaged in a car accident. I received insurance money to replace it. I could have purchased anything. I got another 73.

My first one did NOT have the keybed problem, the second one did. Neither have the fan problem or any of the other issues listed here.

But have they been exaggerated?

Yes. Because we're talking anecdotal evidence not statistical evidence. Because people with problems come here to complain, naturally. There are users who have no issues who don't even know this board exists. (and probably a few with problems who don't know.)

I acknowledge there have been real issues that are real problems. BUT, as I have said MANY times before, some of that is to be expected when a new keyboard hits the market. It would be nice if it weren't so, but it's true.

But the instrument has been out for over a year now. Korg has been methodical in addressing unforeseen issues as they arose. They stand behind they're products. Today, with NO HESITATION, I recommend a Kronos to anyone.

[discjuggler]

Korg doesnt care about their customers.. they just want the $$$$

Sure the Kronos is the best of the worst.. like a polished turd.. but it still stinks.. LOL