Korg Forums

Sparker wrote:I've had a speedy reply from Korg UK - (I'm continually impressed with the Korg UK customer services)

I would agree with you on that one. A few years back, NOT! But Korg UK seem to have put people in charge who do respond quickly now. A most welcome change as there is nothing more frustrating than lack of news or response when you clearly need help.

I bought my Korg 73 key Kronos in the first few weeks it was available, and it worked flawlessly for me at first. Mind you, I don't gig with it and am just more of a hobbyist. I leave it attached to my Mac as part of a little home studio I have set up.

Pretty early on, I upgraded the RAM with 2 2GB memory sticks (of the recommended speed and type) and that worked fine initially as well.

Then, I got the "bug" from people on the forums to install a larger SSD, so I put a new OCZ Vertex 2 120GB in it, and did a fresh OS install on it.

Shortly after that, a new OS was released and I upgraded -- and that's when I started running into the "SYSTEM STARTUP FAILED" messages. I remember reloading the original OS version from the restore DVDs and then it seemed to work fine again. I did the update patch from a USB stick and it went ok -- but then only booted a few times before getting the error message chronically.

I tried moving the SSD from one of the SATA ports to the other one, but that didn't really help. Then I tried putting the original factory one back in as the primary, with the OCZ simply as a data drive on the second port. Reinstalled everything and did the latest updates from USB stick, but STILL I randomly got this error!

I recently read a few comments about bad RAM causing it, so the latest thing I tried was removing the upgraded RAM and putting my factory stick back in. But no luck, as I just found out earlier this evening.

Because the Kronos works fine when I can get it to load up, this just doesn't strike me as a defective main board. (I can leave it on for a week straight when it does boot properly and every time I walk up to it to play on it, it works perfectly for me.)

I know that at least in its current state, I power it on and the disk light stays lit pretty much solid as the red bar slowly moves until it gets to the middle of the S in KRONOS, and then it just stops there for maybe 10 seconds while the disk light stays lit -- and then I get the error.

At this point, I'm getting this is some kind of problem reading data in from the SSD -- but hard to believe my factory one AND the OCZ I bought for it both have problems?

Is there something Korg isn't really telling all of us about this issue? It comes up a lot and all they say is "mail it in for warranty service" and then people get them back supposedly fixed. But the explanation of the problem seems to always be things like "bad RAM" or "bad main board" that don't quite jive as the true answer.....

kingtj wrote:Pretty early on, I upgraded the RAM with 2 2GB memory sticks (of the recommended speed and type) and that worked fine initially as well.

Then, I got the "bug" from people on the forums to install a larger SSD, so I put a new OCZ Vertex 2 120GB in it, and did a fresh OS install on it.

Shortly after that, a new OS was released and I upgraded -- and that's when I started running into the "SYSTEM STARTUP FAILED" messages. I remember reloading the original OS version from the restore DVDs and then it seemed to work fine again. I did the update patch from a USB stick and it went ok -- but then only booted a few times before getting the error message chronically.

I tried moving the SSD from one of the SATA ports to the other one, but that didn't really help. Then I tried putting the original factory one back in as the primary, with the OCZ simply as a data drive on the second port. Reinstalled everything and did the latest updates from USB stick, but STILL I randomly got this error!

I recently read a few comments about bad RAM causing it, so the latest thing I tried was removing the upgraded RAM and putting my factory stick back in. But no luck, as I just found out earlier this evening.

kingtj wrote:I know that at least in its current state, I power it on and the disk light stays lit pretty much solid as the red bar slowly moves until it gets to the middle of the S in KRONOS, and then it just stops there for maybe 10 seconds while the disk light stays lit -- and then I get the error.

At this point, I'm getting this is some kind of problem reading data in from the SSD -- but hard to believe my factory one AND the OCZ I bought for it both have problems?

Is there something Korg isn't really telling all of us about this issue? It comes up a lot and all they say is "mail it in for warranty service" and then people get them back supposedly fixed. But the explanation of the problem seems to always be things like "bad RAM" or "bad main board" that don't quite jive as the true answer.....

To put it another way: you've done a lot of self-service on your KRONOS, directly contrary to all of Korg's instructions, and now it's no longer working properly.

The KRONOS is not user-serviceable. Among other things, it can be tricky to put back together properly. My guess is that somewhere along the line, something went wrong: cables crimped or not seated correctly, etc. This is the reason that I recommend that customers do not attempt to modify the KRONOS themselves.

I am genuinely sorry that you're having difficulties, and I hope that an authorized service center can get your KRONOS up and running again.

I've always managed to get excellent service from Korg UK.

I've spoken with customer services/returns and they have arranged and paid for the courier service and have agreed to install the RAM upgrade and a 64Gb SSD (unfortunately the special offer for the upgrade has passed, however the price I was quoted is, to me, very reasonable).

If I can get a 10 day turnaround I'll be a very happy man. If it takes a wee bit longer I'll still be a happy man.

I'll report back when it has been returned.

Bought my Kronos 88 in August 2011. Sent it back via my dealer to Kork UK for RAM update, extra SSD upgrade and contact replacement approx summer 2012. I only had it back a few weeks when I had the same system error problem. My dealer returned it again to Korg UK.

They apparently replaced the motherboard which was the cause of the problem. I think a RAM issue could possibly cause a similar problem.

My Kronos had only ever been at home and NEVER moved at all, except for the upgrade. It also had very little use due to other commitments.

I think it's better to return the keyboard to Korg UK. I have generally found them to be quick and efficient with their service. It took around 1-2 weeks turnaround for the repair and upgrades. My dealer also had a good relationship with Korg which helped with good communications and progress updates.

Indeed.... Like many of us on the forums, I'm very familiar working with computers (do I.T. for a living). So when I see the inside of the Kronos, I see something not much unlike a standard Linux based PC inside, except with a keybed interfaced with it instead of a traditional computer keyboard or mouse.

"Non user serviceable" is a relative statement, in the first place. I see that (IMO terrible, but I digress) trend coming from electronics manufacturers of all kinds. Today's cellphones from companies like Apple are great examples. Everything's "locked away" inside a case that's purposely designed to be extremely difficult to open without damaging it. Nonetheless, with millions of people owning them and running into "every day problems" like dropping one and cracking the screen, there's plenty of motivation for people to figure out how to open and repair one themselves. So these devices become "selectively user serviceable" based on the knowledge and skill of the user.

When I bought my Kronos, I gave it long enough before opening it to be sure it wasn't going to be DOA or exhibit any problems in the first few weeks of operation. When I saw all was well, I was ready to open it up and start upgrading. It "voided my warranty"? So be it. If it was designed where it was truly impossible to open up and work on, I would probably have bought a different product. I'm an electronics enthusiast as much as a musician.

All I'm really saying here is, I've witnessed sort of a trend of folks having the same problem I ran into -- and it seems like this happened after the more recent firmware updates were released. (When I went back to the original firmware on my Kronos, it worked fine for me -- but don't want to sit at version 1.5 forever.)

I'm going to take mine apart yet again and check my cable connections, and maybe even try another new SSD. But it would be great to at least get some sort of confirmation of such things as the maximum capacity of drive a Kronos will work with and boot from reliably? (EG. If I added a 1TB spinning 2.5" laptop HDD as the second drive, vs. an SSD, would that format and work properly? Does the boot drive have to be under 250GB or under 130GB or what?) Did recent firmware upgrades purposely start limiting what hardware can be used, in an attempt to stop non-authorized upgrades?

danatkorg wrote: To put it another way: you've done a lot of self-service on your KRONOS, directly contrary to all of Korg's instructions, and now it's no longer working properly.

The KRONOS is not user-serviceable. Among other things, it can be tricky to put back together properly. My guess is that somewhere along the line, something went wrong: cables crimped or not seated correctly, etc. This is the reason that I recommend that customers do not attempt to modify the KRONOS themselves.

I am genuinely sorry that you're having difficulties, and I hope that an authorized service center can get your KRONOS up and running again.

Dan has a point, we are not supposed to open the Kronos and service it ourselves. However...

If your Kronos is out of warranty, you're going to have pay to get it serviced and/or fixed. So my approach is to try and fix it myself first, then send it to the after-sales dpt or specialist service centre if I cannot. It won't cost me more whether I try to fix it first or not, as it's likely to be serious if I cannot find what the problem is or cannot find the proper spares, but it could potentially lead to huge savings if I can service it myself.

As usual, everybody's mileage will differ on this question.

Francois wrote:Dan has a point, we are not supposed to open the Kronos and service it ourselves. However...

If your Kronos is out of warranty, you're going to have pay to get it serviced and/or fixed. So my approach is to try and fix it myself first, then send it to the after-sales dpt or specialist service centre if I cannot. It won't cost me more whether I try to fix it first or not, as it's likely to be serious if I cannot find what the problem is or cannot find the proper spares, but it could potentially lead to huge savings if I can service it myself.

As usual, everybody's mileage will differ on this question.

But, don't blame Korg if you don't put it back together properly and then it doesn't work reliably - which is what I'm reading in the previous post.

While I agree with your points in general and there are many people out there who wouldn't even know what to be careful of, I think that's unfair and a little simplistic. There have been plenty or hardware failures
(and very similar ones) reported on here where the person never even moved the Kronos from the studio location, let alone opened it up. You simply can't tell in this case. My Kronos received the official upgrade by the official Korg guy here in the Netherlands, in my home, I literally watched him do the whole thing and though I already thought I could do it myself beforehand, watching him do it only confirmed it. It's really not rocket science, there are no mystery parts, it's just a computer and if you're careful and have some experience it's not a very hard upgrade. I would agree that it's not recommended for "Joe Average" and as such shouldn't be called user serviceable but to claim any faults on a Kronos after a user upgrade are caused by the user is too simplistic and unfair and you know it. I realize you also have to speak the Korg message and I respect that, but I also feel I must go against it in this specific case.

To me, the best thing about getting the upgrade from a service center is that you get some warranty on the parts and the installation. Even if the procedure is user manageable, that is worth something.

By the way, my extra RAM came loose within two weeks after the upgrade. I opened my K up myself because I didn't want to spend 8 more months waiting for the guy (yeah they're that slow over here), fixed it in place properly and it hasn't come loose since. So much for the official upgrade path.

kingtj wrote:Everything's "locked away" inside a case that's purposely designed to be extremely difficult to open without damaging it.

That's absolutely not the case with the KRONOS. On the contrary, purposeful design (with commensurate added cost) would have been required to make it more serviceable. See the OASYS, for instance, which has a nifty flip-up top for service access - which increased the cost, of course.

From my reading of your previous post, it seems that the more you've worked on your KRONOS, the less reliable it has become. I would suggest, with full respect and sympathy, that the solution to that problem is to use a professional keyboard tech at an authorized service center.

You note that you see the KRONOS as "not much unlike a standard Linux based PC inside, except with a keybed interfaced with it instead of a traditional computer keyboard or mouse," and because of this you believe that a background in IT should be all that's needed to service it. Here's a slightly different perspective: starting with the M1, every Korg workstation has had a motherboard, a front panel with buttons, LEDs, and other controls, a display, a power supply, audio and MIDI interfaces, a musical keybed with all of its associated support hardware, various built-in controllers (wheels, joystick etc.) and controller inputs (e.g. pedal jacks), etc. Dating back to the Trinity, Korg keyboards have also had RAM modules, touch-screens, and internal drives.

From a hardware system overview, then, the Trinity and the KRONOS are fairly similar except for the motherboard (Intel instead of custom). Following along those lines, from a service perspective the KRONOS should be regarded as similar to any other relatively modern digital keyboard. If you would send any other digital keyboard to a service tech rather than opening it up yourself, you should do the same for the KRONOS, IT background notwithstanding.

kingtj wrote:Did recent firmware upgrades purposely start limiting what hardware can be used, in an attempt to stop non-authorized upgrades?

Absolutely not.

- Dan

It's not a matter of me "blaming KORG" for the problems I'm having with my KRONOS. Rather, I'm saying I tried numerous troubleshooting steps to isolate the source of the problem, and didn't really come any closer to a solution. (Various message posts I read in this forum over time suggested everything from finding the SSD connected to the 2nd. instead of the primary connector caused issues, to possible issues having 2 2GB sticks of RAM installed with an OS version more recent than 1.5, to too large of an SSD being used as the boot drive as culprits.)

As I said from the start, I don't advocate everyone else ripping into their KRONOS to self-service it. I simply felt it was well within my capabilities, having many years of experience as a PC hardware tech. And other than finding it a little tricky getting SSDs in and out of the metal bracket (due to the tight quarters there), and learning about the need to take care not to let the keybed shift position, it really wasn't any different than working on a PC.

I'm willing to admit that it's always possible I dislodged a cable while re-assembling it, so I'm going to check on that. But taking it to a KORG authorized service center is pretty much my "last resort" option. No offense to anyone at KORG, but I've taken music gear in for service at "authorized service facilities" before only to have them come back with dings, scrapes and even faulty repairs done to them. I think you always take a chance with your gear when you put it in someone else's hands. (Heck, one buddy of mine had a local music store go bankrupt while his gear was in for service, and he was never able to get it back.)

I appreciate the honest and direct response to my question about the possibility of firmware artificially restricting what hardware might be installed. I always wondered about that and until now, didn't see anything more than guesswork on people's part as to whether or not KORG might have done that.

I guess now, my only other question (and maybe this is the one KORG doesn't wish to answer directly?) is about the main board in the KRONOS. Namely, did KORG revise it to address any issues with boot errors? (If there's a chance earlier main board defects or revisions were a source of the issue, then THAT would be a valid reason to take it in for professional service.)

kingtj wrote: As I said from the start, I don't advocate everyone else ripping into their KRONOS to self-service it. I simply felt it was well within my capabilities, having many years of experience as a PC hardware tech. And other than finding it a little tricky getting SSDs in and out of the metal bracket (due to the tight quarters there), and learning about the need to take care not to let the keybed shift position, it really wasn't any different than working on a PC.

The KRONOS is a specialized embedded system, which happens to use an Intel motherboard as one of its components - as do many other embedded systems. I have no doubt that a qualified PC tech would be able to understand the subsystem comprised of the Intel motherboard, RAM, and SSD. Other parts of the system, however, may be unfamiliar. I note, for instance, that you seem focused on the Intel motherboard, RAM, and SSD as the possible causes of your current problems. However, the system involves more than just these familiar components, and the error message you describe (which is generated by the Korg system - not from the Linux OS) could also be caused by faulty connections to other internal subsystems, which in turn could be caused, for example, by damaged or poorly seated cables, as might have occurred during previous DIY service attempts.

kingtj wrote:I guess now, my only other question (and maybe this is the one KORG doesn't wish to answer directly?) is about the main board in the KRONOS. Namely, did KORG revise it to address any issues with boot errors?

There have been no such hardware revisions.

As I wrote above, I am genuinely sorry that you're having difficulties, and I hope that an authorized service center can get your KRONOS up and running again.

Update: The motherboard section with the 'Clocking' function has failed ... replacement being installed ...