How much would you Pay for a SET Editor?

[Sam CA]

Hi Sam

I AM NOT ARGUING - sincerely interested...
I have merged several of my SETs over the years since PA1 days.
As Sharp says, importing STYLEs/Sounds/Performances from other SETs is very easy and straight forward on the PA3X.
The issue usually faced is "location management" and I always carefully plan how my styles/sounds/performances are organised so I have not encountered any SET merging issues.
As I said above, I am sincerely interested as I can't figure how an editor would make things any quicker/easier (other than perhaps the convenience of a bigger screen to work on).
Location management and related planning would be exactly the same in an editor as on the PA3X as I see it.

What am I missing????

Sam, just curious...

Cheers

Pete

Hi Pete, before anything we can also use your help to experiment with this merging Set project and see how long it will take for you to do this. Let me know if you're interested.

back to your question:
What you're missing:

I can tell you for sure, you've never been challenged in this area because the kind of music that you play is highly supported by factory sounds and styles. In fact you can probably delete all user sounds that you have (based on external user samples) and still be able to do your gig without any problems. Even if you buy western styles from 3rd party developers, chances are everything is programmed and mapped pretty neat, so you can easily import a foreign style to your existing SET without problems.

That's not the case for Oriental/Balkan/Indian...users at all. Their SETs are heavily based on user samples. There's hardly any official support for their music, so for the most part they rely on SETs that are shared for free on random websites. They all have one thing in common. Every style uses whole bunch of user sounds/samples and multiple drum kits. Example: each variation, fill, intro, ending....calls for a different drum kit. every style track uses a different user sample...and all this is happening within the same style. This is another reason why they always cry for more Ram and all that, because everytime they import a style, they also have to import a truck load of sounds and drum kits........If you know how the process works, then you should know how painful it is to go through every style element and check every style track to see what user samle is being used and figure out the location of that sample. Then, do that for every single element.....Then, do that for the performance.... Then move on to the next style and do the same............so far you're only taking notes of style properties...Then, you load the main style and take it from there. Now, if you decided to load another Style from SET B that you didn't take note of before, you have to load that SET again and repeat the process...............Ideally, a real functional computer based Editor, would let you drag and drop a style from one SET to another, and do all the remapping on the computer in a fraction of time.

This way the only time you'd need to load a SET is if you wanted to check out a new SET and see what's in it.

Also, you can make so many different variations of your current SET on the computer.

[Sharp]

Hi Assyrianpianist.

Fair enough! Let's just assume I have no idea what I'm talking about and i'm just making a big deal for no reason at all.

No can do because we both know you have a perfect grasp of how every function of the entire Pa3X operates.

If I were to draw a line in the sand up to a point where we agree 100%, would I be right in the following......

You already know that it does only take seconds to import “normal” styles from one set file to another and I don't believe you will argue that point by saying otherwise.

The process of loading custom sounds or drum kits is the exact same on the Pa3X, which I don't believe you will argue either. The Pa3X will auto load the necessary PCM data all on it's own when you select the sound you want to load to memory.

So up to this point I bet we are in 100% agreement? Yes ?

So onto the last part.
Where it gets more involving is if your style are not normal, meaning that they use custom sounds / drum kits

That said, nothing at all changes for loading the style and the sounds it requires to work. You do the exact same steps as I mentioned above.

The only additional step in all this now is that you have to assign the new location of the custom sounds to the style and this is done the exact same way you change an instrument assigned to any style.

So yes, it's a little more involved, but it is pretty straight forward to be honest. Rather than taking a mental note, I always just write down on a bit of paper what custom sounds were assigned to each track.

It's not something your going to be doing often either. Most of us all have one single master SET file we all work from.

Regards
Sharp

[Sharp]

PS... if the question this thread posed was how much would I pay for a Editor for making styles, now that I'd pay top money for. There is a lot that could be gained from the use of a PC and it's large screen there compared to the method currently implemented on the Pa3X.

I much prefer the Sequencer of the i30 by a million times compared to the Pa3X Sequencer. On the i30 you could see the entire style in the Sequencer as you programmed it from a single page. Then you could import the measures in blocks effortless from a single song into a single style.

It was far more productive in my opinion working that way. I've been creating some styles for myself actually and I found it near impossible to use the Pa3X to create them. In the end I found it far easier to just slave the PA3X off my KRONOS and create the styles in the KRONOS as the Sequencer on the KRONOS is much like the one found in the i30. Same concept and layout, although now more advanced. One I had every assembled, I'd dump everything out as Midi files and then import it into the Pa3X.

While that streamlined things for me greatly, the entire process is still so involving that it's enough to put anyone off. So in this instance a PC Editor would be a massive welcome and I'd give my right arm for one.

Regards
Sharp.

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi again James, Sam and others

I'm curious about your thinking here ...

The Pa2x and Pa3x have the ability to import and export styles as MIDI files with markers. These MIDi files will import and export e.g. to Logic on a Mac or Cubase 5 on a PC. The markers for the style regions are editable etc.

So given that Logic and Cubase are there at a reasonable price, and that styles can be imported to the Pa2x/ Pa3x, why is another sequencer/ editor for creating the styles needed?

Where things get complicated is if Styles in a commercial library are made that rely on custom sampled sounds and drumkits. I gave up on that can of worms a long time ago.

Thanks,
Rob

[Sharp]

Hi Rob.

The Pa2x and Pa3x have the ability to import and export styles as MIDI files with markers.

Are you sure?
I remember using this function on a i30, but I've yet to find it inside my Pa3X.

The way it seems to work now is a major step backwards from the old days of the i30. Now if you use a DAW to create a style, you have to save your style as 15 separate midi files.

One midi file for each part of the style.

Then when you come to importing the data, you have to import it track by track into each part, midi file by midi file. It's a mighty long winded process.

Where things get complicated is if Styles in a commercial library are made that rely on custom sampled sounds and drumkits. I gave up on that can of worms a long time ago.

It's not a problem on the Pa3X as it can Auto Merge sounds that contain samples.

Regards
James

[karmathanever]

The way it seems to work now is a major step backwards from the old days of the i30

150% agree - if there is one serious whinge I make it's regarding the change to the importing/sequencing from i30.
Even its "Backing Sequencer" was awesome - so so so easy to use and edit - sadly missing since the launch of the PA series...

Pete

[BillyHank]

Sharp,

Are you kidding?

You just hold down the Shift button while either importing or exporting a style to/from a MIDI for your DAW.

Surely I misread something here???

Bill G

[Sharp]

Sharp,

Are you kidding?

You just hold down the Shift button while either importing or exporting a style to/from a MIDI for your DAW.

Surely I misread something here???

Bill G

Really ?
So how does this work?. There's not a single reference to this on the Import / Export Menu pages in Style Edit Mode.
Are you suppoed to ignore all the settings on those pages or somthing ?

I wonder why this not a menu or option on the screen?

Thanks.
Sharp.

[BillyHank]

Sharp,

I suppose Korg thought you might read the manual on page 29 of the Pa3X Advanced Edit Manual.

Not trying to be smart here, but there it is in plain print and it works in both directions.

Also true for the Pa900.

Trying to remember the many functions of the shift button is a pain to be sure.

Regards,

Bill G

[Sam CA]

Hi Assyrianpianist.

Fair enough! Let's just assume I have no idea what I'm talking about and i'm just making a big deal for no reason at all.

No can do because we both know you have a perfect grasp of how every function of the entire Pa3X operates.

If I were to draw a line in the sand up to a point where we agree 100%, would I be right in the following......

You already know that it does only take seconds to import “normal” styles from one set file to another and I don't believe you will argue that point by saying otherwise.

The process of loading custom sounds or drum kits is the exact same on the Pa3X, which I don't believe you will argue either. The Pa3X will auto load the necessary PCM data all on it's own when you select the sound you want to load to memory.

So up to this point I bet we are in 100% agreement? Yes ?

So onto the last part.
Where it gets more involving is if your style are not normal, meaning that they use custom sounds / drum kits

That said, nothing at all changes for loading the style and the sounds it requires to work. You do the exact same steps as I mentioned above.

The only additional step in all this now is that you have to assign the new location of the custom sounds to the style and this is done the exact same way you change an instrument assigned to any style.

So yes, it's a little more involved, but it is pretty straight forward to be honest. Rather than taking a mental note, I always just write down on a bit of paper what custom sounds were assigned to each track.

It's not something your going to be doing often either. Most of us all have one single master SET file we all work from.

Regards
Sharp

"So up to this point I bet we are in 100% agreement? "

Yes we are.


What you don't know is how badly Oriental styles are put together and how time consuming it is to just transfer one style. You wouldn't know till you actually do it and see it for yourself. We're talking about 20 or more user samples per style. We're talking about 6 or more drum/percussion kit per style. It's nothing like you've ever seen before. Just ask anybody who plays oriental music and they'll tell you all about it. It's an extremely time consuming process. You could easily spend hours just to transfer few of these kind of styles and performances. Like I said before it gets so bad that there are people offering this particular service for oriental users. Again, there's many users here that can confirm all this.

It's also not something they need to do every once in a great while. It's an ongoing process for them. I know you can not relate to this concept, but that's just how it is. If you have any doubts, I'll send you some SETs and see how you like spending half an hour to 45 min transferring just one style.

An editor would be a massive help in this situation. Hopefully you'd be able to see the full content of a SET. Maybe generate a report for the favorite styles and see if any of them use the same user samples, so you won't end up with multiple instances of the same sound in your keyboard and more...It would be much easier to merge multiple SETs for different occasions on the fly. Also the amount of Ram won't be such a problem for them anymore, because they won't have to worry about creating one perfect SET that holds everything they need.

[Sam CA]

Hi again James, Sam and others

I'm curious about your thinking here ...

The Pa2x and Pa3x have the ability to import and export styles as MIDI files with markers. These MIDi files will import and export e.g. to Logic on a Mac or Cubase 5 on a PC. The markers for the style regions are editable etc.

So given that Logic and Cubase are there at a reasonable price, and that styles can be imported to the Pa2x/ Pa3x, why is another sequencer/ editor for creating the styles needed?

Where things get complicated is if Styles in a commercial library are made that rely on custom sampled sounds and drumkits. I gave up on that can of worms a long time ago.

Thanks,
Rob

Hi Rob........I'm not talking about creating/sequencing styles and midi files here. That's something a DAW can easily handle. I use Sibelius, Protools... and more for creating styles and midi files. That's not an issue at all as it works perfectly fine. It has nothing to do with a SET editor.

[Sharp]

Sharp,

I suppose Korg thought you might read the manual on page 29 of the Pa3X Advanced Edit Manual.

Not trying to be smart here, but there it is in plain print and it works in both directions.

Also true for the Pa900.

Trying to remember the many functions of the shift button is a pain to be sure.

Regards,

Bill G

Yeah reading it right now and you will have to excuse me, I didn't read the manual for this because this function does not even exist on any screen page of the Pa3X at all.

On the i30 this was implemented fully. Proper menu and the ability to work without markers where you could freely assign the measures to import form a midi file. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Pa3X at all.

If I wanted to use my KRONOS for example to make a single midi file that contained a style, I can't because the KRONOS doesn't support markers.

Where back in the old days I could have done this with any sequencer and the i30.

Regards
Sharp.

[Sharp]

Hi Assyrianpianist

I see your point in that example. Wow, well that's kind of a mad altogether. With styles constructed in such a fragmented way, that must be a nightmare to manage.

Ouch....!!!!

Regards
Sharp.

[BillyHank]

Sharp,

Well I believe the referenced manual was made available later along with one of the OS upgrades.

There are some 33+ functions listed for the Shift Button - I don't know about you, but that's a bit much for me to retain.

Bill G

[Sharp]

Hi Bill.

There are some 33+ functions listed for the Shift Button - I don't know about you, but that's a bit much for me to retain.

Man, that's a lot. I knew a few, but I can easily count them on one hand. What I might do when I get a chance is to run a search for Shift functions on the two manuals and to create a list I can post on the forum in the “Index - Resources” thread at the top of this forum.

It might be handy to have.

Regards
Sharp.