Electribe2 - Clicky?

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:49 am

Fwiw, I wasn't trying to imply that ONLY headroom is responsible for clicks, just that it can add to how often they occur if you're not careful.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:25 am

SMK, I already know this. What frustrates me is that ok, I can understand this happening while the machine is looping. That's why I mentioned the workaround. But its ridiculous if the clicking is THIS bad even if you're just playing freehand in keyboard mode! I literally can't play a 2nd note until the first one dies down or else it will click.

If I set up a patch with a long release on one of my other synths, it will not click like this. Or do you think this is a case of analog vs digital? If it is, that's why I think Korg can and should fix this. Even on the korg volca keys the clicking is not this bad. And when you do hear it, it kinda goes with the sound (analog charm maybe?) but on the electribe, it just sounds out of place and really tarnishes the sound.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:40 am

and by the way don't think im discounting what you wrote. I did read it and your advice is spot on about masking it, etc. I listened to some of the demo patterns and you're right, you can hear them in there, too, if you isolate parts. But these clicks just sound horrible. Its not like the click even goes with the sound. Pull up the OSC I mentioned (389 string ens) and try it and see. the click just sounds terrible. first I was wondering if it was just the pcm sounds but the synth oscillators kinda have it, too. to my ears it just renders a lot of types of sounds you want unusable.

dutchcow · Post by **dutchcow** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:46 am

The clicking needs to be fixed too. But I worry Korg is not interested in it. After yet another short and nearly rude reply form Korg support I'm close to returning this box.

If Korg refuses to let us know which and if these issues will be fixed whats the point in keeping it?

I'm lucky I have a 60 day trial period. I guess I need to save up a little more and get an Elektron box instead.

wasstof · Post by **wasstof** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:21 am

I've just been messing with OSC389 String Ens and i'm not getting any clicking even when i'm mashing the keys in either Chord or Keyboard mode...
Strange!!!

SMK · Post by **SMK** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:48 pm

roblabs wrote: do you think this is a case of analog vs digital? If it is, that's why I think Korg can and should fix this. Even on the korg volca keys the clicking is not this bad. And when you do hear it, it kinda goes with the sound (analog charm maybe?) but on the electribe, it just sounds out of place and really tarnishes the sound.

I don't know for sure...I don't think anyone does really...but it just seems to be my impression that Korg went for giving users a more Analog feel in being able to create sounds. When the clicks kicked in at the first attempted I made in making my patch, I was like; "damn I couldn't get away from the issues of the Volca Keys". Oh well. In a haphazard way Korg did a great job at replicating every aspect of the keys with exception to the tuning problems (thank God). Anything you could do with at least a Volca Keys, you can create in the E2.

The reason I can speak about the PCM patch problems is because I have had the same problems with performing with the Kaossiltpr Pro. There were a couple of string sections and bass sounds that did exactly the same thing, and made them quite unusable because of it.

That was the case until I figured out how to program a PadKontrol to be a keyboard controller for the Kaossilator Pro "with out the use of a computer". When I hooked up my newly programmed PadKontrol all of those sounds that were problematic became all new click free sounds. How and why, I have no idea. Something about this set up really adjusted the decay trails...dare I say...automatically!

So I knew from that experience there was a decay issue with your set up.

Now as I think about this more, I think there could be a way, at least for the PCMs to have an adjustment feature on the pads at least to have the similar effect as my PadKontrol did on the Kaossilator Pro. I know what that would be. I have posted before that like the Kaoss Pad 3, there should be an effect release setting on insert effects to handle effect cut off when changing patterns. Maybe the same could be done for PCM's?

I tested my Stings, same patch as yours and I didn't get clicks. Now if I mess with release / decay, I will get those clicks. If I use an external controller, like my PadKontrol, I will get clicks! Are you using an external device to sequence or control your E2? One thing I knew going in is the E2 has to be the brain of your set up...similar to how Octatrack users have their setups. The E2 is sorta Korgs answer to having a Tempest or Ocatrack. We can debate the quality of an E2 versus these other devises on a different thread.

My last thoughts on this subject brings up the most disappointing issue I had from the gate when the E2 was first released in Japan back in November; NO ELECTRIBE PATTERN AND PART / SOUND EDITOR

I never bitched about it in the threads but really to me out of all the issues people had, no 8 bars, gaps, whatever...the lack of a first time Electribe editor was and still is, to me, Korgs biggest MAJOR FAIL!

We have one user posting about how is strings are fine, yet you're suffering. Wouldn't it be nice if there was an editor and said user could just send you an attachment via PM of his perfect non click string part thanks to possible editor?
Yeah...Exactly!

Re-Member · Post by **Re-Member** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Everything described here tells me that this has absolute nothing to do with headroom. It sounds like the envelopes were designed to be "punchy." On a lot of analog synthesizers, the amp envelopes have a bit of a pop to them when they are triggered on, which is actually good for making percussive sounds. It's more noticeable using PCM waveforms because there's usually additional noise encoded into the samples.

On my Korg R3, this feature can be actually be adjusted on its own in the Amp settings (it's referred to as "Punch"), but it appears that there's no way to tweak this on the Electribe. One thing you can try though is slightly increasing the attack of the Amp Envelope so that it smooths out the beginning of the gate. Setting it to something like +5 should eliminate the click sound while still keeping the attack speed pretty much the same.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:32 pm

thank you all for getting back to me. I will give you the patch settings as well as upload a file later to so you can hear. But for now, you can test it as SMK did by turning on amp/eg and putting on a long decay/release.

But I think some of you already get what I'm saying.

Also SMK that's interesting that the padkontrol solved your kpro issues. maybe there is some gate/decay value that the pads were transmitting?
(btw I was using the electribe standalone, no external controller.)

And yes an editor would be awesome. For now a workaround might be to just upload patterns as all info is stored in them anyway.

Re-Member · Post by **Re-Member** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:57 pm

Decay and Release effect the sound after the envelope is triggered. Adjusting these will make zero difference on what happens the exact moment a key is pressed or the sequencer retriggers the envelope. I'll say it again: try adjusting the AMP/EG Attack knob just a nudge and see if that eliminates the "click" sound. This is very basic synthesis here, haha. If the sound clicks when the envelope is triggered, smooth out the attack time.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:12 pm

yes you would think basic synthesis applies here but it doesn't seem to be the case. I can even pull my attack up to the halfway mark and i'll STILL get clicks.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:58 pm

OK I had some time to kill so here are some settings for those of you with an electribe2 on hand to try out.

First load an INIT (blank) pattern. Then start making the following patch (which is by default on part 1, I didn't change too much here)

OSC: Saw
Pitch: 0
Glide: 0
OSC Edit: 0
Filter: electribe LPF
Cutoff: 55
Res: 73
EG INT: 0

Mod EG+ Filter
Modulation Speed and Depth on 0

Level: 100
Pan: Center
Attack: 42
Decay/Release: 121

AMP/EG: ON

Poly 1/2

Do you get clicks? Here is a file I recorded just now so you can hear:

https://soundcloud.com/rob-labs/electribe-click-test

Notice whats happening in the file:
First I am playing the patch in Keyboard Mode on Mono, first without the AMP on, then with it. So far so good. Then I switch to Poly, first without the amp and then with it on. CLICKS. Then while still on poly, i am playing a single note multiple times. CLICKS. Then if I try to play a 4 note chord (while still in keyboard mode): CLICKS!

This leads me to believe its some type of digital artifact or glitch, something associated with Poly, because it happens with or without AMP on, albeit worse when it is on.

Ted3000 · Post by **Ted3000** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:40 pm

I don't know exactly why the clicks happen on the e2, but I do know this:

Clicks are caused by discontinuities in the waveform, and can be heard louder on bassy tones without a lot of high frequencies.

A click can happen with a freerunning oscillator that does not start out at the zero crossing. Instantly opening an amp gate while a sine oscillator is at a random point in the waveform will create clicks of random volume as you trigger notes.

A click can also happen when a level jumps instantly. With the E2's paraphonic envelope retriggering, the latest velocity determines the overall volume. So you can get a click when pressing a note while the previous one is releasing - there's an instant level jump. Click! Discontinuity.

You can also get a click without paraphony. Even on drums. And plenty of analog synths will click, especially on those lowpassed bass tones where the click isn't masked by high freq.

Without full polyphonic voices, and without oscillators that start at the zero crossing, and without slewed attacks and releases, I'm not surprised at the clicking.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:17 pm

All accurate points, Ted3000, but I find the clicking to be significantly worse on this electribe than on other synths. The clicking as you can hear in the audio demo is a very high frequency click. I can dial in the same basic patch on my volca keys or minibrute, for instance, and I will not get the same clicks. Maybe its an analog vs digital thing, as I've said, but then I've used other digital synths that didn't have clicking this severe. One thing I've done to alleviate this is use the ifx LP filter. It cuts most of it out, unlike the part filter which seems to make it worse as you turn it towards 0.

Its just a shame, really, because its like you're being forced to play a certain way - you're limited with how much cutoff you can use, and you can't really play notes back to back. And the worst thing about this is that the decay/release tails are super long! you can get awesome pad sounds out of this, amazingly so! But then that click rears its ugly head! I understand that every synth has their own nuances and whatnot, but I feel like this is something related to the digital architecture that can hopefully be improved with a firmware update.

Re-Member · Post by **Re-Member** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:19 pm

roblabs wrote:I can even pull my attack up to the halfway mark and i'll STILL get clicks.

This isn't good to hear at all. At first I was thinking it could be a user error since no one had specified trying this out, but if it is indeed still happening with a slower attack applied to the amp envelope...

But based on everything Ted3000 just said about what could cause a click, if it's still happening with "pad" type sounds (the amp envelope fading in each time triggered), I would test to see if disabling the amp velocity settings fixes the problem.

roblabs · Post by **roblabs** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:38 pm

you can still get clicks even with the amp/eg off! The culprits seem to lie in the filter and having poly on. I can remove it with the LP filter IFX, but that's not a great workaround if I want another effect on the sound..

And why is this a problem? Lets say I'm in keyboard mode, and I want to play an inverted chord....well even as I play the chord I hear clicks.

Theres ways around it, somewhat, but I personally have never dealt with clicks this bad on any other gear/software.