Will there any further OS updates for the Pa3X?

Discussion relating to the Korg Pa3X Arranger.

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Fransman
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Post by Fransman »

worth wrote:The technics sx kn1000 had a button called dynamic accompaniment and depending on the chords you played and how hard you pressed the keys the accompaniment would react and get more lively or complex including bass rifts and slaps and drum fills etc . Sorry frans if you owned the keyboard for so long and did not discover it .
Yes, sorry, you're absolutely right, Worth, I rembember the button now!
Maybe it has to do with my lack of playing skills at the time I owned the KN1000 that I didn't remember what it actually did.
I was sort of a beginner for more than 15 years I guess. ;-)
Musical grtz, Frans

Play in style. ;)
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

Roland never had anything that would play different riffs depending on complexity of chords, or how fast you were playing.

You CAN do a certain amount of Part 'switching' using the dynamic arranger, because the controls for how strong the effect is can be inverted and made to only sound after a certain velocity, so it's possible to set up two Parts with the same sound to play only in their assigned velocity range. But of course, by doing this you use up two Parts for one sound, and you only get the six ACC Parts (plus Bass and Drums) per style, so using the feature fully reduces the number of Parts that can sound at any one time. But it does (if styles are created for the feature) offer the possibility of quite complex variations in the one Variation depending on force of playing.

But this brings up yet another gripe I have with Roland... They have a nasty habit of adding features to their arranger, but making NO factory ROM content (styles or Performances/OTS) that use them! Consequently, people playing them for the first time get a bit underwhelmed, because no styles actually USE the feature. We arranger players are, on the whole, pretty much 'switch it on and play' kind of players (don't get mad! I know those that bother to post about arrangers tend to be more advanced, but let's be honest - we ARE in the minority!) and if a feature isn't showcased in the factory content, it tends to be ignored.

In this fashion, functions like Technic's one or many, many Roland ones tend to wither. The manufacturer sees few using a feature and decide to drop it, all the while unaware that it was THEY who caused few to use it by not demonstrating effectively how good it was! A self-fulfilling wish!

Right now there isn't a single Roland factory Performance or OTS that uses the Dynamic Arranger. And I wouldn't be at all surprised at some point in the future the feature get dropped, because few use it! But few are using it because even Roland didn't use it!

And don't get me started about the Key Audio loops feature. By FAR the easiest way to add synced and transposed audio loops to play along with our styles and SMF's... Up to seven audio loops can be loaded instantly from the USB2 stick when you call a Performance, to add all kinds of groovy magic to the style. Breakbeats, burbly synth things, live drumming or real percussion, the uses are endless... Guess how many loops Roland give you when you buy a BK-9? Guess how many factory Performances use these loops...

ZERO :evil:

Yep... Roland's most groundbreaking, practical and innovative feature on the BK-9 has not one single piece of factory content that uses it! No demos, no nothing. You cannot get to hear it in action until you go out, buy a loop library (or find some free ones) trim them, set tempo, and create a Key Audio set yourself :roll: How do these morons think you can sell a feature, with no content to demonstrate it? :cry:

And, you watch... without at least SOME factory demos of it, some styles and Performances preset up to use it, half the people (at least) using a BK-9 will never use it. And Roland will drop it in the future because they will say 'no-one used it', all the time, once again, unaware that it was THEIR laziness that caused the feature to be low on everyone's radar.

There are times when I wonder if some arranger manufacturers' R&D personnel really want to succeed! Or are they just going through the motions, all the while hoping to get transfered to the more sexy synth and workstation divisions?! :roll: :twisted:

For the few that roll their own, sure, these kind of features are great. But I always have my heart in my mouth waiting for the shoe to drop on any beloved feature if the factory content doesn't use it... :x
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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

Back to the topic.
I will be surprised to see another OS update which is any more than bug fixes.
The next PA has to be well into development unless Korg Italy are going to totally drop arrangers - I cannot see them leaving it too much longer.
The Roland BK9 is really an odd one to me - it seems like Roland needed to have an arranger of some sort and so produced one.
It does have some nice features but I cannot figure out where it fits in today's arranger market - I have enough trouble trying to figure out the Tyros in that regard.

Dikikeys comments overall are asking/querying/recommending a truly professional workstation-arranger - authentic real-life styles with humanistic parts etc.... From many of our members comments too, I could see that there are several very keen on this (even me!!) - and let's face it, there isn't such a keyboard in the world as yet!!!!

So, back to the topic:- Nah!! Don't get excited about updates for PA3X.
PA4X (or whatever it is to be) - I have absolutely no thoughts or expectations - a new brilliant WS arranger? or another "PA" with more buttons?

Cheers

Pete :D
(Still in love with my PA3X though :D )
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

I'm not really sure that the idea of velocity responsive styles is all that much of a 'pro' feature...

Pretty much any player of any skill level could benefit from the idea, and you can always disable it if your LH is so bad you can't control your dynamics at all! But most players can at least decide to play hard or soft. So not really a hardcore 'pro' feature, I would have thought.

The thing about this feature is, at just the basic level it brings an easily used level of control to our backing we haven't had on Korg's yet, but if Korg were to embrace the idea at the style level, yes, a quite groundbreaking increase in flexibility could happen to the styles themselves.

Because of the 'switching' nature of the feature (if set up that way), it can do some of the Karma-type things, adding extra notes, riffs, bass 'pops', ghost notes to drums, more complex picking or strumming patterns depending on velocity. Think of a Part, then think of what could be ADDED to that Part to give more variation.

Just as CV's give us different patterns depending on the type of chord, think of the Dynamic Arranger as something that can give us different (or enhanced) patterns depending on how HARD we play :idea: Not just the intensity of the notes already in the pattern, but extra stuff altogether that isn't there in a quiet passage..!

It's quite a leap forward, with some not very complicated programming. But, as I alluded to in the previous post, unless it is embraced by the manufacturer and made an integral part of the ROM style design, it will end up being one of those things that remains a 'pro' feature because few will know how to use it. But if the ROM content uses it extensively, it will be one of those 'must have' things, as soon as people realize it adds more variety to the same style.

Plus, the feature has one excellent plus... Sure, to use the 'switching' aspect of it will require styles specifically designed for it, but it is something that can also majorly improve even the current and legacy styles, simply by subtly changing the dynamics on the velocity switched drum kits and other sounds.

I honestly cannot think of another OS addition that could have such widespread gains in expressiveness to our arrangers whilst remaining a fairly simple idea to implement... 8)
Dikikeys

Post by Dikikeys »

BTW... as to the BK-9, I too have no idea what Roland were shooting for!

Personally, I am absolutely in love with it! But if you are the kind of player that doesn't want to roll your sleeves up and get dirty, it ain't for you..! Roland have managed to release an utter gem of a piece of hardware. Sonicly, it is really TOTL. Mixed well, I'll put it up against anything. And I mean ANYTHING!

But it sure don't come OOTB that way! :roll: :twisted:

The styles are mixed badly, the OTS are generally mixed badly, the default programming on some of the sounds (particularly the MFX inset programming) is not great, and the Music Assistant (the list of 1000 preset songs) is a wild ride of some fairly horrible programming and a few gems!

Roland seem to have got the basic soundset right... and then went 'Here you are... fix it yourselves!'. For those of us that can fix it, it is utterly amazing. For those that just want to PLAY (as I so often say, the vast majority of arranger users!) it will leave you feeling a bit nauseous!

Add to that a somewhat stripped down level of front panel buttons, and some rather different workflow changes from previous Roland's, and you've got a recipe for sales disaster. Which I think is coming to fruition...

But learn the workarounds and changes to long-used workflow, adapt to the display technology (90's, LOL), use an FC-7 for the extra buttons and leverage the four Assign SW's (in other words, 'move on'), and it is a sleeper of amazing proportions. And a VERY decent (but no aftertouch) 76 note keybed that stacks up against the very best in an arranger that weighs a mere 20 lbs! I bet most of us would KILL for something that good, that light! :shock:

But.... You have to roll your own. No way of getting around it. Without work, it fails to stack up against the PA's and the Tyros's. Me, I like doing the work! That's what makes it mine, not someone else's with the same model!

But I have a feeling that if Roland did the work themselves, BEFORE they tried to sell it, they'd have a G1000 level success on their hands. Now THERE was an arranger you didn't have to mess with to sound good (for its day). How could Roland have forgotten such an important lesson..? :roll: We arranger users are, on the whole, a really lazy bunch! Do the work for us, we'll flock in droves. Leave it up to us and few will bother... :?
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Post by Asena »

The future is Virtuel Arranger Programs i think!

A great Keyboard whit dedicated program for mapping any kind of button mapping!
Great sounds that you can easly change from a Program, and more fuctions that any KB ever can make!

It,s the future i think!!!

In the end, Todays KB market is to old thinking, How many use the Tangos, Cha Cha,s
We need Dance, RNB, POP, HOUSE, POP LATINO, Commercial things!
And first of all, A KB that worx faster, Better RAM, And much better OS!
There is VST,synths that can do much much more.
And we are stil waiting for the OS update that can fix several Bugs.
Like STS problems.
So, I,m not sure if KORG is taking time to fixa this before hitting the market whit a New KB.
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Post by Veren »

Hi Dikikeys

Its the most needed feature in my opinion from all the "easily programmable" features that will most probably NOT need any hardware changes etc.

True we need more and more people supporting the idea and for those that simply cannot see the benefits/possibilities and dont think its a brilliant idea/feature...kindly dont play this down and if implemented, you dont have to use it.

Simple volume changes does not cut it (in any way) in bringing out the emotion in the music...simple as that.

Also desperately needing "tightness" adjustment for ensembles feature (or when 2 or more sounds are selected for simultaneous RH playing) as currently everything is so tightly syncd that if 2 or 3 sounds are played together, it sounds like a totally NEW instrument and one cannot tell that 2 instruments are playing almost in sync like in reality where one can actually listen closely and tell the instruments apart.... this too must surely be very achievable with an OS update.

thanx
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Post by fResH_ »

10+
Asena wrote:The future is Virtuel Arranger Programs i think!

A great Keyboard whit dedicated program for mapping any kind of button mapping!
Great sounds that you can easly change from a Program, and more fuctions that any KB ever can make!

It,s the future i think!!!

In the end, Todays KB market is to old thinking, How many use the Tangos, Cha Cha,s
We need Dance, RNB, POP, HOUSE, POP LATINO, Commercial things!
And first of all, A KB that worx faster, Better RAM, And much better OS!
There is VST,synths that can do much much more.
And we are stil waiting for the OS update that can fix several Bugs.
Like STS problems.
So, I,m not sure if KORG is taking time to fixa this before hitting the market whit a New KB.
// Matthew

"Its not how good you are, its the impression you leave behind."
Veren
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Post by Veren »

Hi All

I thought to add this in just incase Korg is actually listening to customers needs.

It will be much more effective to have intensity of style (and other bits that is mood dependent) to be linked to a particular slider and NOT to Lower velocity as the latter could mean erratic changes in mood with every chord change.

my 2 cents
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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

Cant imagine there being another update for PA3X now.
It's been too long really.
I am sure Korg keep an eye on "wish-lists" and suggestions but the hardest task for them is deciding which features to add/improve on a new model - how does Korg determine "most-wanted-by-most" combined with sensible marketing decisions?

Designing a new model must be a nightmare.

I have gotten to a point now that, with all the personal modifications I have made on my PA3X, I would be hard pushed to go for a new model UNLESS it's truly revolutionary!!

My only pet dislike still is the PA3X organs and tone wheel emulation - my Roland VR09 saves the day for me giving me Hammond/Leslie emulations equal to, if not better than, other keyboards like Nord/Hammond - I sometimes use my VR09 as a sound device with my PA3X.

I would doubt a PA3X update would add such features - at best we MAY get a bug fix or two.

Cheers

Pete :D
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Post by paul »

karmathanever wrote: I have gotten to a point now that, with all the personal modifications I have made on my PA3X, I would be hard pushed to go for a new model UNLESS it's truly revolutionary!!
Pete :D
Pete ...you got it right.
I may not upgrade unless there is more RAM (up to a gigabyte) to store user samples!! :lol:

Paul
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Post by worth »

[quote="karmathanever"]
I have gotten to a point now that, with all the personal modifications I have made on my PA3X, I would be hard pushed to go for a new model UNLESS it's truly revolutionary!!
Pete :D[/quote

Will these be famous last words Pete 😅
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karmathanever
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Post by karmathanever »

worth wrote:Will these be famous last words Pete
I refuse to make any comment on the grounds it may be used against me in the future :wink:
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Post by jimsweb »

paul wrote:
karmathanever wrote: I have gotten to a point now that, with all the personal modifications I have made on my PA3X, I would be hard pushed to go for a new model UNLESS it's truly revolutionary!!
Pete :D
Pete ...you got it right.
I may not upgrade unless there is more RAM (up to a gigabyte) to store user samples!! :lol:

Paul
exactly - i will never upgrade, unless the PA4x comes with:

1. 64 bit processor
2. able to handle more that 4 GB of sample RAM

Looking at the current smart phone technology, a $200 phone has 64 bit snapdragon processor and 4 GB ram.. Why can't Korg do that? Why are they still sticking with age old 32 bit intel processor and boards?
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Post by DonM »

I'm absolutely certain that the new Korg will be here very soon, and you can thank me for that.
I just bought another PA3X, so for sure the replacement will here very shortly!
:)
DonM
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