Genos new competitor for Korg pa4x is coming

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:11 pm

Poor little Genos seems to be on a roller-coaster right now.
I really want to play it (2 weeks to go) but I simply cannot get past its specs and docs which read like a copy/paste from the Tyros 5.

Yamaha have always over-DSP'd IMHO - and yes it sounds nice but when I had both Tyros and PA3X the truth for me was hearing the raw multisamples.
BUT it doesn't matter if you hide some of that with DSP as long as it sounds the way you want.

I still hear it as a nice "in the lounge" sound but not "at the gig" sound. My good friend (and superb keyboard player) is an outstanding music recording engineer - best I've ever met
he is very brutally honest with his opinions and has so far been well impressed with the PA4X and Kronos from a professional playing and recording point of view - must get him to review this Genos machine!!

What often puzzles me about the many many posts regarding good/bad/ugly pianos is that, in the end, they are digital samples - how you hear them depends on DSP, EQ, sound system. headphones etc..etc..
There cannot be anything close to a real grand piano other than a real grand piano, so something that suits one person (and not another) depends on so many other factors.

I do fully empathise with the "pianists" wanting that pure acoustic sound - I feel the same way about drums - as yet, I have not heard any digital (acoustic) drum samples that are truly realistic. BUT Korg and Yamaha have done a great job so far.

OT - Genos - I think it will sell if not only to it's loyal Tyros fans but as D575 says "...Well Genos is not a pro instrument that is now apparent..."
Time will tell where this goes....

Pete

D575 · Post by **D575** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:09 pm

As we are talking about pianos....here is some interesting viewing regarding this subject https://youtu.be/2mNaqGldBBg from a few years ago ...

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:53 am

That's fascinating!!
I was amused by the comment underneath "...is it better than a real piano..." is a weird total contradiction of terms

Maybe they meant "better" from a tweaking/editing point of view

Thanks for the link

Pete

Stilli · Post by **Stilli** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:42 am

karmathanever wrote:.........
I was amused by the comment underneath "...is it better than a real piano..." is a weird total contradiction of terms........

Well the comment was made by the BBC News, in the UK we have learned to not believe anything they say until it's backed up by a more reliable source ... lol

D575 · Post by **D575** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:06 am

Stilli wrote:
karmathanever wrote:.........
I was amused by the comment underneath "...is it better than a real piano..." is a weird total contradiction of terms........
Well the comment was made by the BBC News, in the UK we have learned to not believe anything they say until it's backed up by a more reliable source ... lol

lol Stilli...I know what you mean but the forum rules won't allow me to go into that one...... but....."BBC" is short for.....oops... I'll stop there handbrake on (!)

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:07 am

Well some properties in sound environment , request a somehow deep knowledge in sound engineering !

You seem that confusing of what you hear in realtime with specific phsychoacoustic properties with what you
hear from lounspeakers when this was recorded and then reproduced !
For instance , when you hit a drum snare while recording it (under perfect conditions) then the sonic feeling
when listening to this recording is totally different from the realtime played feeling !
The reason is crystal clear ... your ears initially listened 110dbm of real time played snare and ears have a
logarithmic response in "brain recording" that can be recreated only when your speakers (of excellent quality)
will reproduce those 110dbm under the same environment emulation , of actually 600Watts of audio power !
Therefore according to sound engineering rules , you compare only recorded natural Music instruments and
never what you hear in real time that in most of times is false with distrortion caused by ears over 100-105dbm !
Your sound source is always recorded when reproduced (CDs , Wav , Flac) so our sonic inheritance is always
"digital samples" when we hear and enjoy Music.

And yes , a perfect acoustic piano or Drum kit can be heard worse than a VST because sound engineer did not
captured them properly , and I'm frequently used to that in many years in Music production and studio recordings !
Independently of the current fact in sampler keyboards , I ensure you that acoustic piano is one of the most easiest
acoustic instruments to be simulated for more than 90% when samples size is devoted , compared with other string
acoustic instruments where natural articulations and human expression are very complex !

Hope this helps

D575 · Post by **D575** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:14 pm

GENOS Rerference Manual https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/music ... oduct-tabs

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:24 pm

I had a brief look only at "Editing Voices" chapter , and Genos seems with more restricted sound editing than Tyros 5 !
Wasting of time to deal with it , nice extra gear as a sound rack expansion for 800$ with potentials of extra factory
voices expansions !

Bachus · Post by **Bachus** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:40 pm

AntonySharmman wrote:I had a brief look only at "Editing Voices" chapter , and Genos seems with more restricted sound editing than Tyros 5 !
Wasting of time to deal with it , nice extra gear as a sound rack expansion for 800$ with potentials of extra factory
voices expansions !

Sound editing on both is done trough an external program called YEM.. it runs on a PC... You can not upload single sounds as is now, only a whole new set.

IF you want to be able to really edit the sounds, stay away from the Genos.

Fun thing is, i found out that most of the Yamaha buyers don't want deep sound editing, Daw integration or any other pro features. I started several topics about this on the psr tutorial forums, and i get personal attacks on a daily base.

I also get attacked for owning a Korg, and showing interest in the development and improvement of a new Yamaha keyboard. By many i get considered an outsider and a traitor just for the fact that i changed from T5 to PA4x. As if that would cloud my memory? Some of them seem to take brand loyal tie as serious as Saturday Afternoon football matches.

Really? Yes? Well, let me tell you if another brand offers a better product and i think its worth the money, i will switch.

What Yamaha did was change many of their style arrangements to sound more live and closer to Korg styles. I can't wayt to do a real soundquallity comparison between the Genos, the PA4x and the Ketron SD9 Pro..

I might end up with the Kronos and a Nord stage3 compact and a Ketron SD9 pro module setup.. I really like the new launchpad feature on the Ketron SD9 pro which takes styles to another level of usefulness.

D575 · Post by **D575** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:55 pm

Bachus wrote:
AntonySharmman wrote:I had a brief look only at "Editing Voices" chapter , and Genos seems with more restricted sound editing than Tyros 5 !
Wasting of time to deal with it , nice extra gear as a sound rack expansion for 800$ with potentials of extra factory
voices expansions !
Sound editing on both is done trough an external program called YEM.. it runs on a PC... You can not upload single sounds as is now, only a whole new set.

IF you want to be able to really edit the sounds, stay away from the Genos.

Fun thing is, i found out that most of the Yamaha buyers don't want deep sound editing, Daw integration or any other pro features. I started several topics about this on the psr tutorial forums, and i get personal attacks on a daily base.

I also get attacked for owning a Korg, and showing interest in the development and improvement of a new Yamaha keyboard. By many i get considered an outsider and a traitor just for the fact that i changed from T5 to PA4x. As if that would cloud my memory? Some of them seem to take brand loyal tie as serious as Saturday Afternoon football matches.

Really? Yes? Well, let me tell you if another brand offers a better product and i think its worth the money, i will switch.

What Yamaha did was change many of their style arrangements to sound more live and closer to Korg styles. I can't wayt to do a real soundquallity comparison between the Genos, the PA4x and the Ketron SD9 Pro..

I might end up with the Kronos and a Nord stage3 compact and a Ketron SD9 pro module setup.. I really like the new launchpad feature on the Ketron SD9 pro which takes styles to another level of usefulness.

Yes your treament on the other froum was quite unbelievable to me and as I am "Tommy 73" over there I felt the need to show my full support for you as you do contribute a huge amount of effort and time with your work on both forums which is very good indeed and better than I can ever contribute also.....so as for Genos like you and Anothy then it's not realy had the impact that was anticipated all be it still being a nice keyboard to sit down and play im sure...as for the "Ketron SD9 launchpad" perhaps that could give korg a nudge for the up and coming PA5X?...Somthing worth exploring which would be good to here your detailed analysis of (Ketrons SD9 launchpad) Bachus... in the future perhaps

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:31 pm

I'd definitely jump towards Ketron if anyone in Australia cared about it - support and sales is terrible. I don't think Ketron care much.

Back to Genos - my expectations are completely crushed.

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:47 pm

Bachus wrote:Sound editing on both is done trough an external program called YEM..

FYI : I had bought Tyros 5 at the first days of it's circulation , hoping to develop it after users request and I sold it
in one week later ... fortunately this time I was wiser with Genos !

Fransman · Post by **Fransman** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:15 am

I had a look and listen to the Voice/Style Demo,

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/music ... oduct-tabs

Most of these demos (FantasyFox, Moonwaltz, SwingingMusette) won't get the younger player towards the Genos IMO (very old school).
(still apart from the price).

Most of the sounds and styles do sound very good though (it better be for this amount of money...).

I really like the arpeggiator! Korg could easily implement this in PA's, it's kind of already there with KAOS.

chelsea4023 · Post by **chelsea4023** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:50 pm

Hi Guys,

I hope I do not get in trouble with the Moderators for posting this, but in view of the outrageous price of a new Genos, I would like to show what your money gets you in the U.K. (please bear in mind this is pristine, comes with an EC5 controller and a sustain pedal as well.
Just for the record, I bought my PA4X 61 (brand new) and a Viscount Legend Live two manual Hammond clone (brand new) together for £459 cheaper than a new Genos would cost me.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222699038688?ul_noapp=true

Chris

p.s. It's not my PA4X, no way am I selling mine !!

chelsea4023 · Post by **chelsea4023** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:45 pm

Hi,

In view of my previous post, I do have to say that the Genos is a very nice piece of kit. The sounds are amazing, there are features I would love to see on a Korg arranger.
The guitar strumming demo by Martin Harris was stunning. This feature would be a very useful and effective addition to any arranger.

I'm not one for delving too deep in the sound editing menus, so the Genos wouldn't be a problem for me. I think the standard sounds on it are equal to the PA4X (some obviously better).

The issue for me is the pricing. The dealers have been pegged backed on profit margins therefore limiting their ability to offer good deals to buyers. I doubt the price you end up paying will drop much below the current selling price. It's a lot of money for an arranger, especially when most arranger owners suffer with the 'upgrade' bug every three or four years.

Had the Genos been around the £2,500 mark, I would have been seriously interested in getting one to go alongside my PA4X.

I have made many 'Yamaha' friends at the Festivals over the years and sadly my heart dropped when I realised how much they will all be paying to upgrade to the Genos.

One final point, I'm really confused why they are only producing a 76 note model. Surely three different keyboard sizes (including 88 note weighted) would sell more units overall ?

Chris