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danatkorg
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Post by danatkorg »

Daz wrote:2) The ability to instantiate a Polysix/MS20 EXi with a properly initialized program like the AL-1 or STR-1. It's a pain having to manually initialize the MS20 and Polysix settings each time you add one to a program.
What does "properly initialized" mean to you?

To me, it means "making a reasonable default sound, based on the character of the plug-in." We designed the PolysixEX and MS-20EX to do that - and in my opinion, the result is better than with the AL-1. The patches are simple, without AMS modulation, with basic EG settings, and without patching (in the MS-20EX). Attack and release times are short.

The MS-20EX has some resonance on the filter, since that's a critical part of its sound; the PolysixEX has the Ensemble effect enabled, since that's an important aspect of its sound. In a small way, the default patches serve as guides to some of what can be achieved with these synths.

It's true that the filters aren't open all the way, and that there is some EG modulation of the filter. When I start an AL-1 sound, my first step is usually to lower the filter cutoff and get some EG modulation going - so the defaults of the MS-20EX and PolysixEX are generally closer to my personal end goal. I don't feel that there's any more that I have to change with these defaults than with any of the other synths. As always, YMMV.

I'm interested to hear what others might think about this one.

- Dan
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Post by Daz »

danatkorg wrote:What does "properly initialized" mean to you?
Unfortunately, it does mean like the AL-1, STR-1 and HD-1 initialized programs. (In fact the AL-1 is not correctly initialized by my "standard", because it has the filter keyboard tracking turned on full tilt.)

All the other Korg products (Radias, MS2000, Triton, Electribe, Legacy Collection (!) etc.) that I've worked with have initialized/default programs that have no modulation or effects settings etc. In fact I can't readily think of any synths that I've used that don't work this way.

The settings of the LAC-1 are not representative of the instrument type IMHO, just one example of that is that that they react to velocity ;-) I think it is highly subjective what makes a good starter program and any attempt to provide some kind of prefab sound will likely jar with someones way of working. Presumably this is why it is pretty much a defacto standard to start with the plainest possible sound.
It's true that the filters aren't open all the way, and that there is some EG modulation of the filter.
There is rather more than just that set up ... the sub osc is on in the P6, the keytracking is up full tilt, the Ensemble is on, there's a bunch of velocity modulation etc. etc. It's like trying to draw a picture on a piece paper that someone else has already drawn on. I wan't a blank piece of paper to accomodate my ideas.
so the defaults of the MS-20EX and PolysixEX are generally closer to my personal end goal.
Your *personal* end goal ... what about mine ? ;-)
danatkorg wrote:I'm interested to hear what others might think about this one.
Me too. I can't imagine that many others will care though.

Speaking of initializing the provision of an Initialize Program menu option would be good.

My 2c,

Daz.
Last edited by Daz on Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Daz »

p.s. as an alternative ... check out the Korg Mono/Poly 4 in the new Legacy Collection that lets you initialize a sound by choosing from a number of useful default or template settings. To my mind it should be nothing or a chosen option.
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Post by Daz »

I think the ship probably sailed on this one, but I'll mention it anyway, maybe for the benefit of future Korg products. When you're in program mode and actually editing a program it would be good if the control surface could be used to edit parameters on the page your looking at. At the moment the end user experience for me personally is not greatly different than editing a soft synth with a mouse.

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Post by danatkorg »

The PolysixEX and MS-20EX respond to velocity, and most of the presets make use of this. So, responding to velocity is representative of the instrument. The main point, though, is that the defaults represent at least one aspect of the characteristic sounds of the instruments, which was the goal.
Daz wrote:I think it is highly subjective what makes a good starter program and any attempt to provide some kind of prefab sound will likely jar with someones way of working. Presumably this is why it is pretty much a defacto standard to start with the plainest possible sound.
All I can say is that the AL-1 and STR-1 defaults bug the heck out of me and at least one of my compatriots at R&D, and we all agreed on this approach for the MS-20EX and PolysixEX. So, that plainest possible sound can jar with people's working methods, as well; to quote Neil Peart, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Also, the AL-1 and STR-1 defaults are so plain that they don't really show the algorithms in the best light. If someone is flipping through algorithms, in my opinion the results should be useful from the get-go - as they are with the effects, for instance.

As noted, we've taken some care to not make the defaults complex. I did a good amount of programming with these synths, and the defaults have served me well. I can completely understand that others might have different ideas of defaults; copying EXi Oscs should be the solution for that (once we get the copy bug fix out to you all...).
Daz wrote:Speaking of initializing the provision of an Initialize Program menu option would be good.
I agree - I filed a feature request for this some time ago.

- Dan
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Post by danatkorg »

Daz wrote:p.s. as an alternative ... check out the Korg Mono/Poly 4 in the new Legacy Collection that lets you initialize a sound by choosing from a number of useful default or template settings. To my mind it should be nothing or a chosen option.
Yes, I agree that this would be useful.

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Post by Daz »

I disagree with the logic but I appreciate your explanation of it, and your opinion on the matter which I respect.

In truth this wouldn't light my fire nearly as much as it does if there weren't "other impediments" to using the instrument effectively as a synthesizer.

Let's hear what everyone else has to say ... Korg aren't just making this stuff for my benefit ;-)

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Post by Daz »

Anyone ? Don't be shy ;)
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Post by peter m. mahr »

Daz wrote:All the other Korg products (Radias, MS2000, Triton, Electribe, Legacy Collection (!) etc.) that I've worked with have initialized/default programs that have no modulation or effects settings etc. In fact I can't readily think of any synths that I've used that don't work this way..
Right.
Daz wrote:The settings of the LAC-1 are not representative of the instrument type IMHO, just one example of that is that that they react to velocity ;-) I think it is highly subjective what makes a good starter program and any attempt to provide some kind of prefab sound will likely jar with someones way of working. Presumably this is why it is pretty much a defacto standard to start with the plainest possible sound.
Right, again.

But didn´t we have that kind of discussion already somewhere else... kind of deja vú.

I also would like to have the possibility to start from scratch.

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Post by Daz »

Thanks Peter. Actually this is the first time this topic has been raised on the forum IIRC.

I just went and looked again at the LAC-1 "initialized" programs and FWIW the MS20EX one I don't mind as much as the PolysixEX one.

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Post by StephenKay »

I'm just wondering: Is it that difficult to set up one each EXi Program exactly as *you* like it, as an INIT starting point, and then copy those settings when designing a new program from scratch?

Sure, it's not as handy as an Initialize feature in the page menu with a number of choices, but it seems that it would be workable. Simply store a default setting for LAC-1 MS-20 that you like in UA-127, one for STR-1 that you like in UA-126, etc. That way, you could have it exactly as *you* prefer, be it completely flat, or with some of your favorite modulation sources already patched to the appropriate places.

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Post by Daz »

I'm just wondering: Is it that difficult to set up one each EXi Program exactly as *you* like it, as an INIT starting point, and then copy those settings when designing a new program from scratch?
If I were just sitting in Program mode and creating a program I'd be perfectly happy to add these extra steps. Most of the time I am not and I've already had to do a bunch of work to get into Program mode from Combi mode. As I said above, this is only an issue because of the way I work.

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Post by domc »

Crikey Daz you have been busy since I last looked here.

I haven't really noticed the LAC-1 presets as being a problem - if fact I quite like the Polysix one. Having said that, the option of pulling from various templates or setting your own template is obviously a good one.
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Post by domc »

OK HERE GOES: LAST EFFORT BY ME TO GET THINGS FOR OS 2.0

This is a long list, and as per my Tone adjust and external control suggestions of last week, I've broken it down into different topics to make it more manageable. I've also broken down between primary and secondary requests where the primary ones try and focus on things which are hopefully easier to implement (rather than radical no hope requests - eg like ability to play 3rd party VSTs) or more important. The secondary ones tend to be more blue-sky and of less use (to me). Thanks to everyone whose ideas I've latched on to.

Suggestions Overview.
A) Tone adjust - suggestions on previous page
B) External control - suggestions on previous page
C) General operations - below
D) Sampling / HDR - below
E) Disk mode - below
F) Karma - below
G) New EXi, EXf, EXs - below
H) Sequencer - below

C) GENERAL OPERATIONS - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0
1) Add presets (firstly for all the effects as already programmed, but I think a set of presets would also be a useful addtion to the step sequencer as well).
2) Link KBD to control surface - please store by song or make a global setting. I can't think there's many people who don't turn this feature on almost every time.
3) Link KBD to control surface - implement this idea to combi mode as well as sequencer mode.
4) EQ settings. When the graph is shown, link the displayed graph to the track selected, so you can select a track via the control surface and look at it's EQ (without having to use a non-existent fingernail to try and select the tiny blue bar on the touchscreen).
5) Fully editable/saveable programs from Global/Seq mode. I'm not sure how hard this is to implement but is obviously a much requested feature acknowledged by the team. If not poss, then some way of saving programs from these modes, without having to do the convoluted copy tone adjust settings method.
6) SLEEP mode
7) Going from program-global-program it remembered what page you were on; like it does for seq-global-seq changes.
8) More Banks (esp for programs). This is one of my top requests. Not sure how difficult but I have already run out of program slots. There's lots of ideas of how to extend (more progs per bank (1000 vs 127), more banks (with flashing rather than solid lights) but I don't really mind how implemented. I could live with current combi limitation, but current program bank limitation will become more and more of a pain as new libraries, instruments, samples etc become available. Rather than doubling the current capacity - I think Korg should be looking at quadrupling at least to provide ample headroom for coming years.
9) Request to use Enter/Exit buttons to answer OK/Cancel questions from GUI.
10) Automatic loading of user-selected samples at start-up - much requested and high on my list.
11) Random edit function for all EXi - great sound design feature.
12) Templates for loading each EXi - as just requested by Daz
13) Categorisation/List loading of separate oscillators. I think one of the best features of current software implementation, is that you can change a program/GE in real time from a list and hear the effect in real time before you decide to select it or not. I would like the same feature for oscillators rather than the current copy oscillator function. This would allow you to trial how a currently selected oscillator might sound (when selected from all the available banks) along with any other oscillators and the current effects in real time prior to selection. This would make sound desgin/mixing different oscillator types much easier.
14) Ability to load REX2 files; and then play them from combi/program mode (as orginally suggested by Dan!)

SECONDARY GENERAL REQUESTS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE HARD TO IMPLEMENT

14) Per-track insert effects
15) Simple arpeggiator for tracks without Karma.
16) Calibration of all contol surfaces in global mode
17) Author design guidelines for programs/combis
18) Use of drum samples in wavesequencing (if not already poss)
19) Pads to be able to send midi messages
20) Midi monitor function



D) SAMPLING/HDR - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0

1) Stereo samples from RAM to be transeferred easily to HDR (and then back and forth between the sampler/HDR)
2) [Sections of ] Stereo files (either 44.1khz or 48khz) to be easily imported to HDR
3) Ability to easily map a number of samples across keys. Eg select 4 samples and they will be quickly assigned across a designated area of keyboard rather than having to be individually mapped.
4) Ability to use auto pitch to map series of samples across keyboard
5) Proper importing of AKAI samples; stereo samples to be put on one oscillator rather than spread across 2, giving up to 8 velocity layers (using both oscillators) that can be assigned to any program. Only if there are more than 8 layers should the importing automatically default to combi mode (as it's very hard to import combis into existing sequences).

SECONDARY SAMPLING REQUESTS
6) 24/96khz sampling (I've put this here as the sound quality seems pretty good to me as is and I'd rather have the extra processing power be spent on many of the other reqests incl. 16 extra midi tracks/16 stereo audio tracks before this one.)



E) DISK MODE - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0
This is a harder area to try and make sensible suggestions as I have no idea how hard some of these things are to implement given the previous code. Anyway there's lots of comment on this so here goes.
1) Longer file names - as has been done for the PA1X.
2) I'd like the whole system to be much more ambivalent to 44.1khz/48khz files and stereo/mono files (i.e software does the translation in real time or prior to execution in real time without the user having to worry). However if we have to live with the current system then at least let multiple files be converted from 44.1khz to 48khz at the same time. Currently you can't select multiple files and it is boring, boring, boring.
3) Use pointers to samples/audio when loading samples/audio. I'm not a fan of the current implementation of loading/saving KSC files. It leads to the same files being saved in multiple places on the hard drive. For instance I have granular atmostpheres saved on the hard drive and I use it in a couple of songs. Now in the songs I also use a few other sample library sounds. So when I come to load my song, I either have to tediously load all the samples libraries, or use the 'save all' function for my song. This leads to the samples being again resaved in another part of the hard drive. Much better to use a pointer system for samples/audio like that used by Cubase so the system doesn't keep resaving sample/audio files that are already saved. Not sure how hard this is to implement but this will lead to a much better file system.
4) Move function
5) Various functions could be improved by implementing a double touch system (as used on the patch panel of the MS-20) rather than the current open/up system.
6) Ability to audition and playback stereo files from internal/external/CD drives. [Could also go in sampling section]
7) Ability to transfer files/sampling libraries directly from a computer via USB 2.0 cables - this for me an easy area of computer integration which would yield worthwhile time saving measures.
8) Favourite folders that can be easily accessed
Last edited by domc on Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by domc »

F) KARMA - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0

1) Integration of Karma software to enable user editable functions. We understand this is coming
2) Ability to quantise Karma start / stop
3) Ability to change other settings as well (eg tone adjust and mixer settings) in each of the scene changes. Prob quite difficult to implement.
4) Routing midi tracks to Karma
5) See RTC model in GE browser
6) I'd like to see for individual Karma modules which RTP parameters are changing when you move a slider (eg that when you moved slider 4 it would tell you that the RTP velocity scale was moving from 0 to 212); this would be especially useful to see on the Play/Karme GE and the Play/Control Surface/Karma pages.
7) Easy way of transferring Karma sequence to patterns without having to play whole section (eg select 4 bars, hold down a few keys on keyboard, hit touchsceen or specific key combination and a new pattern is created representing the output of Karma had those keys been held down for 4 bars). This should be done without having to record to sequence, get from sequence etc.
8) Ability to choose which 32 RTP are shown on the RTP page and assignable to sliders/buttons.
9) Ability to change Karma GE via internal sequencer (currently possible but only via external sysex commands)

SECONDARY KARMA REQUESTS

9) Abiltiy to edit certain of pattern grids directly on the Oasys - the drum one probably being the most useful (esp if combined by new drum machine/pattern implementation), followed by the pitch pattern/rhythm.
10) In implementation of 3) above, be able to set a time for the change over to occur with a switching time in which the parameters vary linearly (or by steps if appropriate). This is prob quite hard to implement but could lead to some really cool effects.
11) Ability to change Karma settings after a track has been recorded


G) NEW EXi, EXf, EXs - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0
There's plenty of these on the previous pages so I've honed in on some of my favourites. Happy to pay for these.
1) Drum machine (linked in with better pattern based programmer of it). This is a much requested feature and would help utilise the great sounds already in the Oasys.
2) FM synth
3) High quality pitch correction EXf
4) Wacky sound mangling EXf (eg. like Ohm boys plugins)
5) Other physical modelling synths of STR-1 quality.
6) New Mono/Poly EXi
7) Sample playing/mangling EXi
8) Radias Exi


H) SEQUENCING - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0
I've commented on this extensively already.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=21777
To memorialise some of the concepts from this thread along the same lines as above:
1) Live style session view - as pattrns have already been implemented I would have thought this shouldn't be too difficult
2) As an alternative to 1), at least make it possible to chain patterns (eg say play pattern 45 four times and then move onto pattern 47 1 times)
3) 32 Midi tracks; 16 Stereo audio tracks
4) Ease importing of wav files (both from the sampler but also from the HDR so the user doesn't have to worry which format it is saved in or whether it is stereo of mono)
5) Pattern based grid for easy drum/pattern generation. This is a much featured request, and one of my top ones, but is really a sound generation tool as much as a sequence one. I would contend that instruments like Monologue in Reason sounded good as it was so easy to quickly link them up with a small sequence via the pattern player. Now imagine if a small pattern based grid was quickly linked to LAC-1 instead. If it takes 10 mins to set up via a sequencer then it is not as useful/inspirational as a sound creation tool. Yes this is possible with Karma, but to be really useful the grid needs to be user adjustable quickly via Oasys, not by hooked up computer software.
6) More location positions (possibly via the bank buttons).
7) Better use of existing FF and REW buttons (eg when sequence is stopped to move the locator).
8) Piano roll editing of notes (like MPC software showed in the attached thread - this is probably quite a bit of work but useable for lots of korg products going forward)
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 9&start=30
9) Visual editing of CC/Sysex commands (again like MPC software showed above).
10) Visual display of audio outputs (both for SEQ and Combi modes)
11) Linking songs - the much requested cue-list function

SECONDARY SEQUENCER REQUESTS
12) Higher resolution than q/192 (although I personally haven't found this to be an issue and would rather the processing was spent on all the other requests)
13) Importing ability of mp3 files in similar vein to wav (eg user interface is easy and any any conversions etc are done at the time automatically)
14) Manipulation of audio clips like Live 5/6. The timestretching algorithms are already functioning, but to change the operating mode to make it as easy as Live 5/6 prob requires reasonable amount of work.


That's as much as I can manage at the moment. I'd implore Korg representatives to add as many of these feature requests as possible. For those who don't know me I write all this not to highlight shortcomings of the current Oasys/system, but because I like it so much that I'm willing to spend time/effort trying to make it better.

Kind regards, Domc
Last edited by domc on Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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