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Many of you here OWE CELLO an Apology !

The truth came out because of him .
Thanks Cello

Rocness wrote:Many of you here OWE CELLO an Apology !

The truth came out because of him .
Thanks Cello

Hey now, I supported Cello, at a time when (hardly anyone) else would.

Where's my credit?
And please make it more than the 750$ credit towards Kronos libraries

Seriously, this is the first time I read this thread since a long while ago, I'm just wondering why James (Sharp) made it so public and not tackle it first in PM's/emails and then give a single post or 2, after everything was found out?
(not an accusation, just curious about this technique)

And isn't "pepperpotty" that woman/girl that only had a Casio keyboard thing, she joined here last year and was a total amateur about keyboards, but now in her signature she has loads of studio equipment all in the course of a year?

But Cello, this just proves that sometimes hunches about these kind of psychological misdemeanor is like mathematics.....usually the hunch is right!

And lets not forget Korg's own marketing with "...all new blah blah" when in fact it was 6 year old Oasys technology.
(not going there, just reiterating)


Thanks Cello, for raising the "tough questions", when most of us wanted to like Karo for their work.
And for not giving up when the most of the tide of people "turned against you"
(But I still want my credit;) )

Thanks James, for your work in/on this forum, patience and most of all "fairness" that is above par on many other forums

Lets continue to ask the hard questions...weed out inconsistencies and let the result be a better place, for ALL of us, collectively!

Hedegaard wrote:
And isn't "pepperpotty" that woman/girl that only had a Casio keyboard thing, she joined here last year and was a total amateur about keyboards, but now in her signature she has loads of studio equipment all in the course of a year?

Whoa?! Where do I fit in on all of this?

Yes I had a Casio keyboard, it was the one where there are lights above the keys and you can play along to the songs. But that was when I was about 6!

A lot of the gear I've bought in the last year as I've been saving up my money since I quit smoking but I only just recently added it to my sig.

I can assure you that I do own all of it and if you really want pictures then I will be happy to provide them.

I would like to think that you would trust Sharp's judgement in selecting a moderator who was honest and not lie about the equipment that they have.

billysynth1 wrote:Mmmm, I'm pretty much upset by all this.

Karo tried hard to do business with Korg during the Oasys years, now that Karo are finally taken aboard by Korg all this malaki breaks out on our beloved forum.

From the evidence presented it is obvious that Karo lost thier self control for greed's sake and James has honoured the integrity and policies of the forum and taken appropriate action.

I know Karo spent a lot of time and money to develop these Libraries, seems like they became so desperate that they lost thier self control and respect for the forum and the community.

Karo's behaviour is an insult to us as humans, our intelligence, and our ability to live in a world were we can trust each other.

Will people do business with Karo now after all this? Can an appology be made? Can we, after all these insults, accept an appology and move on?

Regards
Billy

Yes I buying

KVA
KMP
KMC
KDC
KPB
KTC 1
KTC 2

I have no problems with Kurt.
I ask kurt if he sample his MOOG Taurus and he did KPB

[/img]

Hedegaard wrote:And isn't "pepperpotty" that woman/girl...

This has no place here.

Hedegaard wrote:

Rocness wrote:Many of you here OWE CELLO an Apology !

The truth came out because of him .
Thanks Cello

Hey now, I supported Cello, at a time when (hardly anyone) else would.

Where's my credit?
And please make it more than the 750$ credit towards Kronos libraries

Seriously, this is the first time I read this thread since a long while ago, I'm just wondering why James (Sharp) made it so public and not tackle it first in PM's/emails and then give a single post or 2, after everything was found out?
(not an accusation, just curious about this technique)

And isn't "pepperpotty" that woman/girl that only had a Casio keyboard thing, she joined here last year and was a total amateur about keyboards, but now in her signature she has loads of studio equipment all in the course of a year?

But Cello, this just proves that sometimes hunches about these kind of psychological misdemeanor is like mathematics.....usually the hunch is right!

And lets not forget Korg's own marketing with "...all new blah blah" when in fact it was 6 year old Oasys technology.
(not going there, just reiterating)


Thanks Cello, for raising the "tough questions", when most of us wanted to like Karo for their work.
And for not giving up when the most of the tide of people "turned against you"
(But I still want my credit;) )

Thanks James, for your work in/on this forum, patience and most of all "fairness" that is above par on many other forums

Lets continue to ask the hard questions...weed out inconsistencies and let the result be a better place, for ALL of us, collectively!

Hedegaard your right , respect to you for standing up when so few would at that time and now that the truth is out , looking back it really makes some of Jim post look ridicules . I think sharp handled it very well by being transparent and not hiding anything from the people of this forum so salute to Sharp as well .

Rocness wrote:

jimknopf wrote:This part of the debate concerning future Karo libraries is completely vain.
It's all guessing without ever having exchanged a word with Karo.
And there are many possibilities in between sampling from scratch and using samples from earlier sessions in a new manner (possible new velocities, diskstreaming allowing bigger libraries, reworking of sample adjustments in the patch structure etc.).

I'm interested in Karo's Virtual Analog library and asked him if this was more or less identical to the Oasys library some days ago. Karo's answer was a clear "No": all former Oasys libraries have been substantially reworked according to his words.

I don't see why anyone being suspicious or even upset, talking of misleading advertising (or worse) here in the forum, can't ask Karo directly to be sure. Critical questions are ok, but they should be used to clarify, not just to be suspicious and leave it at that.

YOU OWE CELLO an Apology !

Based on what???

Cello questioned that Karo has a right to sell the updated libraries for the Kronos, as if that was a kind of big betrayal. I heavily disliked and still dislike the way Cello put doubt on the complete existence of these libraries, without ever asking Karo his questions (if these were just the old Oasys libaries or substantially updated ones) first. That was putting pure poison into a debate which would have been easily clarified by direct Karo contact - and only after clarifying facts, discussing the wording of advertising in a calm way.

So Rocness, you obviously have mixed up two completely different things: the forum rules question (where Sharp was completely right), and the production and selling of the libraries, where Karo has every right in the world to sell enhanced libraries at user friendly prices to Kronos owners!

My critisism stands.
And this includes Hedegaards point of view.

jimknopf wrote: Cello questioned that Karo has a right to sell the updated libraries for the Kronos, as if that was a kind of big betrayal. I heavily disliked and still dislike the way Cello put doubt on the complete existence of these libraries, without ever asking Karo his questions (if these were just the old Oasys libaries or substantially updated ones) first. That was putting pure poison into a debate which would have been easily clarified by direct Karo contact - and only after clarifying facts, discussing the wording of advertising in a calm way.

So Rocness, you obviously have mixed up two completely different things: the forum rules question (where Sharp was completely right), and the production and selling of the libraries, where Karo has every right in the world to sell enhanced libraries at user friendly prices to Kronos owners!

My critisism stands.
And this includes Hedegaards point of view.

Mostly agreed, but ... the thing is, Cello has every right to be a bit jumpy when the word "OASYS" is used. Or "KRONOS". He generally is. It's well within his rights to be a bit jumpy on the subject. He did pay a nice load of his hard-earned cash to pay for that keyboard only to be left disappointed (by his own words) by some aspects of it. And to see large portions of the OASYS being re-used on KRONOS at much lower price point. Also, he has a right to feel that way, and a point there.

Also, while I generally dislike the "reuse old stuff as new" business model, it's much more normal in this aspect - samples being reused - then in other areas of business. For example, as a journalist, I've called NVIDIA out many times over rebranding of their products which they've done a number of times. They rebranded - for example - a 2xx series product as a 3xx series product. How would you feel about that if you were looking for a VGA card, bought something that's labelled 3xx series, and find out that it's actually the same product as the 2xx series with the same "xx" part?

Samples are different. KARO has every right to do whatever they want with their samples, but I honestly think they should make sure that they phrase their marketing in a way that won't be misleading to their users. Not only KARO, every single company in the world should do that. This is a KORG-learned lesson. We all saw more then a few typos, forgotten words etc. in their webpages, promo materials etc. Some comments on the subject weren't that much polite, either. Much less then in this discussion, actually.

Back to the topic at hand. Was it just my feeling that Cello was more itchy about the wording of everything then the fact that they've reused something? And - more to the point - don't you feel that as the buyer of that particular library, he also has a right to be a bit itchy because they're selling "the same library" for less money for KRONOS? Even more so if they said that the library isn't the same but upgraded in many ways, only to be sold at the lower price point?

vEddY,
if you read my full post quoted here, you will see, that I have shown SOME understanding for the situation of Cello and former Oasys owners. And I wrote that I regard Cello essentially as a friendly person, but still dislike his reaction in this thread.

I belonged to those who, not even having a Kronos, already pleaded for some kind of bonus coming from Korg, to signal that the former Oasys owners aren't just abandoned, then in the Oasys part of the forum. So I am not a Kronos owner disregarding the interests and feelings of others.

On the other hand, the more I read how some Oasys owners deal with their disappointment, the less I accept their behavior, and really ask myself meanwhile what they excpected. From my view it is crystal clear, that anyone wanting Korg to stay in the business, will clearly recognize that they hardly had a chance to act other than they did, and develop the Kronos for a broader market.

And yes, there is one thing I really do not accept: all this silly talk pretending that the Kronos is just a kind of stolen cheaper Oasys, but then coupled with the disgust and envy that it is not just that, and instead a BIG step forward and a real next generation synth, supported with lots of new and coming developments.

The latter is just natural fact, and it is high time that some people finally learn to deal with it from my view. My patience for the way some former Oasys owners are still behaving (and I could say some more sharp things about that), after half a decade of great flagship existence and support, and still owning a great board , is meanwhile rapidly(!) vanishing. They were premium users of a premium product, but they could not hope to live on that island alone forever.

The rant against Kurt concerning the pubication of the updated Kronos libraries, while containing minor valid points, was unnecessary badmouthing instead of clarifying from my view, and I still look at it like that.

Pepperpotty wrote:

Hedegaard wrote:
And isn't "pepperpotty" that woman/girl that only had a Casio keyboard thing, she joined here last year and was a total amateur about keyboards, but now in her signature she has loads of studio equipment all in the course of a year?

Whoa?! Where do I fit in on all of this?

Yes I had a Casio keyboard, it was the one where there are lights above the keys and you can play along to the songs. But that was when I was about 6!

A lot of the gear I've bought in the last year as I've been saving up my money since I quit smoking but I only just recently added it to my sig.

I can assure you that I do own all of it and if you really want pictures then I will be happy to provide them.

I would like to think that you would trust Sharp's judgement in selecting a moderator who was honest and not lie about the equipment that they have.

I think you misunderstood (or I didn't make myself clear enough)
I was just mentioning you in a general kind of observation way.
Not questioning whether or not you have/don't have all your equipment

I was just reminiscing the "old days" last year when the Kronos was announced, people on here went batty and apesh*t, you had your *ahem* Casio or some other homebranded, homemade keyboard with speakers built in. Akos and Ozy and me were stuck in debating spiritual, godlike and ethical debates. At a time before Ozy was banned and Akos left of his own free will (but visits us from time to time)

And then I read this thread & tell my wife:
"Heres the new scandal over at Korg Forums, you remember last year about the Kronos blah blah blah"

So.....I was just observing, not accusing anything.....but nice that you stayed, steered clear of Ozy's flirting and now promoted to Sharps right hand man, or woman, to be politically correct.

jimknopf wrote: And yes, there is one thing I really do not accept: all this silly talk pretending that the Kronos is just a kind of stolen cheaper Oasys, but then coupled with the disgust and envy that it is not just that, and instead a BIG step forward and a real next generation synth, supported with lots of new and coming developments.

The latter is just natural fact, and it is high time that some people finally learn to deal with it from my view. My patience for the way some former Oasys owners are still behaving (and I could say some more sharp things about that), after half a decade of great flagship existence and support, and still owning a great board , is meanwhile rapidly(!) vanishing. They were premium users of a premium product, but they could not hope to live on that island alone forever.

Dude.... how should I put this in the most elegant way so you don't misunderstand what I'm about to say...

It really doesn't matter what you or I do or do not accept, people have a right to think what they want. You can't impose your point of view on them, however right or righteous or wrong it may be. Just don't react to it. I try not to let it wash over me. Although I do feel a part of that pain myself. But I try to restrain myself to one/two comments on the subject every couple of months. Just to let some steam go out.

Don't read this as "you stupid idiot, nobody gives a f**k what you/I think". Please notice the difference.

For example, I do disagree with you on a number of subjects from your comment. But I feel as though the subject is so washed out and boring that it needs no further airtime. Also, while I do agree that there are things that have become stale and boring on the subject, if the conclusion from cello's discussion ends up being "companies, start taking care of your s**t", I'm a happy camper there.

Yes, of course people think what they want and say what they want.
Not accepting some attitude does not mean denying that it exists or trying to prevent it from existing.
It simply means using the option to contradict.
Not more and not less.

Most companies are well aware that we vote with our wallets, by the way.

jimknopf wrote:Yes, of course people think what they want and say what they want.
Not accepting some attitude does not mean denying that it exists or trying to prevent it from existing.
It simply means using the option to contradict.
Not more and not less.

Most companies are well aware that we vote with our wallets, by the way.

Fine by me

Except... I don't really think that musicians are a great bunch of people to base theories on If anything, they're the complete oposite Musicians start with little things, then they end up buying moogs, leslies, old guitars, old amps, old drums... not exactly a shining example of people "buying with their wallets"

But I get your point Generally, you're mostly right

Feel I should clarify my position just so that the matter does not get any more confused than it already is.

Firstly, thank you everyone (I mean everyone) for contributing to the discussion here.

When I first highlighted what I felt was an issue with KARO's marketing (which I don't retract for a second), strangely it was actually meant as a prod to get them to correct it for their new target market (Kronos users).

Yes, I carry issues about certain OASYS history - which I believe I can justify but not everyone shares my views (fair enough) - but not once, ever did I say anything negative about KARO's products. I challenge anyone to find any post of mine that says otherwise - and I haven't gone back and edited them either... unlike others highighted in this thread have done. So, from that evidence you know that I have no chip in my shoulder about KARO.

As it happens, and in truth, I was hoping that KARO would realise that we (as a Korg community) did not come down in the last shower and should be treated with a little bit more honesty - that was as much for the benefit of future Kronos customers as well as respect for existing OASYS ones.

All they had to do was say 'yes, you're right it is misleading wording - we have edited to ensure that there is no doubt'. Treating us honestly would have gone a long way, I think.

They however - NOT ME - chose to react the way they did. And it revealed through their own posts, and Sherlock Sharp's amazing detective work, showed that they, misrepresented to all of us on this forum - which was the original point thaty I raised re the website text; misrepresentation. It would appear from the exposed evidence that misrepresentation is endemic to their organisation. Look at sharp's posts - KARO have had every opportunity to correct the situation. - they have chosen not to take that opportunity TO BE HONEST WITH KRONOS USERS.

Think about it - look at the mess THEY (KARO) have created! Such behaviour could even jeopardise their relationship with Korg - and that even seems to be a risk they're willing to take! Bizarre - seriously bizarre. If Irish Acts or Basari Studios had a chance to partner with Korg do you honestly think either of them would behave the way KARO did?

Now you can argue all you like with me about whether I was right or wrong to be critical of the Kronos wording on KARO's website as long as you like, but the facts of the matter are that KARO was using multiple identities to deceive KF forum members. That is not a point for debate - that is what they did - and they were doing it long before I made my initial comments.

So, if it makes anyone feel better then blame me. No probs.

But you can only blame me because I've been open and honest with my posts.

Something you can't say of KARO.

Now - with all that said, I hope we can move on. (Sorry for the long post - believe it or not, this is the edited version! )

cello wrote: So, if it makes anyone feel better then blame me. No probs.
But you can only blame me because I've been open and honest with my posts.
Something you can't say of KARO.
Now - with all that said, I hope we can move on. (Sorry for the long post - believe it or not, this is the edited version! )

Dude, I don't think that anyone's blaming you for anything. It's just that you do (rightfully) hold a small-medium-big grudge against Korg on the OASYS/KRONOS subject. And you did sometimes let that get the best of you while usually being the nice, informative self.

I don't think that there's any doubt that the question you raised is a valid one. Also, I will make one observation of my own.

Companies and people conducting business should really (start) tak(e)ing care of their market approach - marketing and PR materials, manuals, and everything else. And all of those materials - print, optical, whatever - should be precise in their wording and explanations of their products. Otherwise there will be many, many more discussions like this everywhere. Fact-checked to the hell and back because a lot of people are getting tired of being used as clowns - either on purpose, or by "sand through figers" approach. Translation - lack of QA in any shape or form.

That being said, if half of this what was discovered about KARO is true, then it's a damn shame and a disgrace for them on the best possible and available meeting place for KORG users. Yeah, I really wonder what KORG is gonna do about all of that....