Montage by Yamaha

[Kevin Nolan]

My friend also pointed to Enya having two special rooms in her facility each with a Grand Piano - I believe they were a Steinway Concert Grand in one room and a Bosendorfer Imperial 290 in another. But - when it came to her recording a piano part on one of her pieces featuring piano what was used - a Roland synth of some kind with a piano patch (I believe it was a JD800).
[...]
How on God's name can you go to the bother of setting up two such stunning piano rooms, and use a sampled piano patch on a track?? Incomprehensible to me!

A real grand piano is great for solo playing and it can stand against a symphonic orchestra, but it would dominate a pop tune mix by far instead of melting into it like a sampled patch does.

Na - don't buy it!!

I'll hunt down the piece - I haven't listened to it in over 10 years (can't bare to) - if memory serves - it's a solo piano piece - no joking !! I'll try to hunt it down and post a link.

[Kevin Nolan]

It appears Kevin might be right about the polyphony. Here's a Yamaha guy speaking about the Montage in a new video. Listen starting at 0:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubsaeYFU0K0

You know what - yep it's 265 notes (128 + 128) - but - what he just said about the Montage being class compliant with 16 stereo audio channels into any computer and hence any DAW is just fantastic. THAT is a big surprise to me - and means, at long last, one of these synth beasts can be really integrated into a DAW environment and hence your work flow for computer based sequencing. The class compliance means - it will neve go out of date. It will always link in. No drivers needed!

Think of those 265 voices - essentially latency free synthesis - easing the burden on your computer.

Have to say - my enthusiasms for this device is increasing by the day.


And even though we all have loads of sample libraries and Omnisphere and so on - there being 8 times the AWM waves on this than Motif XF has grabbed me - Im not a sample / rompler guy - but - the big advantage in my opinion of rompler based PCM synthesis is the level of detail that these companies have to put into their PCM based programs.

Overall, this is an exciting package to me - that class compliant / 16 channel connectivity is absolutely bang on to me. Perhaps Kronos has this and if it does then wonderful, but OASYS doesn't, and I feel it - I tend to use it in stereo where ideally I'd like at least 8 individual outs into a DAW.

[Derek Cook]

Someone once told me Enya layers her own voice 400 times :p

Couldn't resist the pot shot, actually I mostly agree with your post. I've never owned a JP80 but I understood that the polyphony was an issue because it was effectively 4x64 which could actually easily cause note cutoffs.

Think 10CC and "I'm not in love" for another gorgeous example of layering.

[Derek Cook]

Nope. Only gig occassionally for free. 2:30am loadouts were fun in my 20s, but I enjoy my sleep now.

I'm with you on that one. At 52, gigging really takes it out of me now, so a few a month are fine for me. With travelling, set up, tear down and the gig, it's a 13 hour day for me (I have the DMX lights to set up as well as keys).

[aron]

Just though of something else. Since you don't have voices anymore, just slots, and AWM2 and FM are separate, then the old tricks of using FM to augment the wave player takes up 2 slots in a performance now. The SY99 could do cool things like use 1AFM&1AWM and use the FM to augment the AWM. In the Montage, you need 2 slots in the performance (out of eight) and therefore when using those sounds in another performance means making sure you are copying everything you need.

I also read that the standard piano sound and more take 2 elements - so right off the bat if you use a piano sound, you have 64 note polyphony. There's a DATA List that includes the number of elements used for each "slot".

Nothing unexpected.

[Kevin Nolan]

Just though of something else. Since you don't have voices anymore, just slots, and AWM2 and FM are separate, then the old tricks of using FM to augment the wave player takes up 2 slots in a performance now. The SY99 could do cool things like use 1AFM&1AWM and use the FM to augment the AWM. In the Montage, you need 2 slots in the performance (out of eight) and therefore when using those sounds in another performance means making sure you are copying everything you need.

I also read that the standard piano sound and more take 2 elements - so right off the bat if you use a piano sound, you have 64 note polyphony. There's a DATA List that includes the number of elements used for each "slot".

Nothing unexpected.

You really are intent on finding flaws with this

Remember - the AWM2 engine is 128 note _Stereo_ - so sorry to argue with you again but I thing the standard piano sound is stereo - occupying one 'element' of the 8 in a performance - giving you 128 note polyphony.

Regarding the organisation of sound - I personally think the way the Montage offers it is the optimum way. In the SY99 you had voices that could offer, as you point out, a combination of 1-4 elements (2 AWM, 2 AFM). Multi's were then 16 Programs (the same as a korg combi).


But this way - the performance is the only entity to deal with - up to 8 programs / sounds into a performance, and that's it. No messing, no duplication of effort, or having to think about the difference in effects settings between programs and multis/combis - and with 32 effects processors on hand - it means you can program and use them to your hearts content, never having to worry about loosing them as when transferring a program into a multi (surely THE bane of all workstations even up to Kronos?)


So I don't actually agree with you. I think Montage is THE optimum design for layering / splits / multi MIDI channel setups - and availing of your hard effort in sound design effects wise aways.

I'm not looking to argue with you for the sake of it. I'm genuinely excited about Montage because of the following:

- Huge AWM wave set
- 128 + 128 voices
- 8 operator / 88 algorithm FM (capable of reading the DX legacy of programs)
- Performances being optimum means of setting op sounds
- 16 stereo audio outs via USB (think of Integra by Roland - 8 analogue outs and no digital multi outs! Crazy!)
- USB Class compliant (I've been screaming for this from Roland since V-Synth GT days). Believe me - this alone make the Montage future proof for decades
- 2000 User memories - and Soundmondo - THE most sophisticated sound management system in hardware synthesis (and believe me - vital for rapid-fire media work where you churn through such resources).

- a stated / declared developmental program for Montage over it's life-span (rarely does a company say this from the outset, but Yamaha did).

To mention nothing of graphical programming of FM, Motion synthesis, Superknob


Got to tell you - as a return to synthesis - this is a hugely impressive package - they've really gotten it right - and better than even Kronos from a workflow point of view in my opinion. This is going to be one serious workhorse for years to come.

[aron]

> so sorry to argue with you again but I thing the standard piano sound is stereo

Yes it is, but it uses 2 elements (stereo elements). The Voice Data lists (remember the SY99) a piano as using 2 elements at any given time. This is from Phil @ Yamaha - 64 note polyphony on the "standard" piano.

>So I don't actually agree with you.

You don't have to.

But please think about it. Lets say you make a sound like the 1AWM&1FM, with the AWM being the base sound and FM having some other sound. They compliment each other. Now when you move the voices around on the SY99, the two stay "attached".

In the Montage, they are totally separate. So if you copy just the AWM part, and forget to copy the FM, you will not have the full sound. You still need to keep organized.

I know you are excited and that's fine. But you say a lot of things that have not been confirmed and some seem exaggerated to me.

I guess I have the luxury of having worked in MI, not to say that you didn't. But I am glad that you are excited.

I am not trying to find flaws - some of my friends work at Yamaha and I have a long relationship with them. I wrote part of the VL1 editor and I wrote the SY99 editor among a bunch of other Yamaha librarians/editors, so I do love Yamaha. But I see the keyboard for what it is.

[NIO0850]

I think the Montage sounds great and packed full of features. Will I buy one? Not until I get a good look at the Jupiter and Kronos successors. Is it a threat to the Kronos? Sure it is. I could see any professional using one to do it all. When the hottest topic is a Korg forum is about a competitive brand. Korg should worry. I sold my Kronos because I though Korg was about to release the next big thing but instead Yamaha did. Maybe I should buy the Montage.. Crap on Korg ya should of did somthing besides paint an 88key silver.. lol Freaking tards.

[Broadwave]

I sold my Kronos because I though Korg was about to release the next big thing

And that's Korg's fault, is it?

[Kevin Nolan]

> so sorry to argue with you again but I thing the standard piano sound is stereo

Yes it is, but it uses 2 elements (stereo elements). The Voice Data lists (remember the SY99) a piano as using 2 elements at any given time. This is from Phil @ Yamaha - 64 note polyphony on the "standard" piano.

>So I don't actually agree with you.

You don't have to.

But please think about it. Lets say you make a sound like the 1AWM&1FM, with the AWM being the base sound and FM having some other sound. They compliment each other. Now when you move the voices around on the SY99, the two stay "attached".

In the Montage, they are totally separate. So if you copy just the AWM part, and forget to copy the FM, you will not have the full sound. You still need to keep organized.

I know you are excited and that's fine. But you say a lot of things that have not been confirmed and some seem exaggerated to me.

I guess I have the luxury of having worked in MI, not to say that you didn't. But I am glad that you are excited.

I am not trying to find flaws - some of my friends work at Yamaha and I have a long relationship with them. I wrote part of the VL1 editor and I wrote the SY99 editor among a bunch of other Yamaha librarians/editors, so I do love Yamaha. But I see the keyboard for what it is.

Firstly - you're just wrong on the piano dropping to 64 voices! Its main pianos are stereo, 128 note polyphonic - as confirmed by the Yamaha rep at NAMM (watch the video !!!!). You really need to drop the arguments on polyphony - really - you're flagging a dead horse.

Secondly- I'm happy to debate with you - but don't start attacking my character in this (as in saying I'm exaggerating) - attack the argument - not the person !!


Fair point on the SY77 voice architecture - if that's preferable to you then you have a genuine beef on how Montage works. I have to admit - the only time I use AWM programs on the SY99 is either for RCM synthesis, or for standard multi type sounds which can be achieved in a better was on Montage, because of the singular management of effects.


My main point in all of this is - as a first step into synthesis based workstation environment in a long time, they haven't done a half bad job. I personally had great trepidation before the release (and have been a critic of Yamaha in recent years) - so to produce such a beast, 18 years since EX5, is not half bad to me. Perfect? Far from it - but an excellent (and in my view needed for competition reasons) entry to this market

[Jan1]

Why don't you simply submit the question at yamahasynth.com?
That way you'll get the definitive answer to all questions pertaining to polyphony and you can avoid needless arguments back and forth.

[jimknopf]

I think the Montage sounds great and packed full of features. Will I buy one? Not until I get a good look at the Jupiter and Kronos successors. Is it a threat to the Kronos? Sure it is. I could see any professional using one to do it all. When the hottest topic is a Korg forum is about a competitive brand. Korg should worry. I sold my Kronos because I though Korg was about to release the next big thing but instead Yamaha did. Maybe I should buy the Montage.. Crap on Korg ya should of did somthing besides paint an 88key silver.. lol Freaking tards.

And how funny is it to sell a Kronos just to praise a Montage?

The Kronos still is vastly superior as all-purpose synth and workstation, so you look at a downgrade in significantly more areas than at an upgrade. Perhaps one should better go and learn some basics about the instruments one buys, using it's full potential, before selling it without proper replacement in reach.

[Kevin Nolan]

Why don't you simply submit the question at yamahasynth.com?
That way you'll get the definitive answer to all questions pertaining to polyphony and you can avoid needless arguments back and forth.

There's no need to - Aron is incorrect.

But - a forum is a place for discussion. It's far from needless - it invigorates the user community, and manufacturers read them.

It's posts like yours that are needless.

[Jan1]

Why don't you simply submit the question at yamahasynth.com?
That way you'll get the definitive answer to all questions pertaining to polyphony and you can avoid needless arguments back and forth.

There's no need to - Aron is incorrect.

But - a forum is a place for discussion. It's far from needless - it invigorates the user community, and manufacturers read them.

It's posts like yours that are needless.

It's quite unnecessary to be angry Kevin, my post was not intended in any way whatsoever as some sort of criticism.
I merely pointed out that there is an easy way to get a final answer from Yamaha, not in any way intended to tell you or anyone else what to do.
It's a suggestion with a friendly intent which obviously came across in a way I did not want to.

[Kevin Nolan]

I wan't angry a all Jan. Actually - text is a horrid way of communication isn't it!

No qualification needed, and I clearly was a bit too snotty in my reply (though genuinely didn't intend being, and didn't feel that way when posting).


For sure we're all passionate about music and musical instruments


Cheers,
Kevin.