Will the New Fantom Motivate Korg ?

[GregC]

I guess you don't play guitar. Or play with guitar FX.

True, I rarely use a guitar sound, because I'm always working with guitarists.

1) I agree that once Fantom has SN Acoustic sounds, it will be much more competitive in the acoustic instrument arena. I was comparing what's available today. Can't show up to a gig or session and say you'll have the sounds next year.

That said, I would still take, for example, Kronos CX3 organ and EP1 EPs over the SuperNatural organ and EPs in the Integra7. But we'll see what comes, we can't compare what doesn't yet exist.

2)As it is today, I think Kronos has some inherent technical advantages in acoustic sounds, between some of the modeled engines, the availability of FM synthesis, more and potentially larger sample sets (and the "more" also gets back to your comment about needing more than "a" sax sound, but rather a variety of them), and in its main HD1 sampling engine, a greater number of samples available in the creation of a single sound. Fantom has up to 4 partials per tone, I believe the Kronos equivalent is up to 8 multisamples per oscillator, and up to two oscillators per program. So I think that means a single acoustic instrument tone of the Fantom can have up to 4 layered/switched samples, where a Kronos HD1 sound can have up to 16. (And Montage/MODX and I think Kurzweil can have more than that.)

1) Its all about tonight's gig . The hypothetical was to look ahead. I like to plan.

2) This 'technical advantage ' has not been much capitalized on. I have griped about this several times. With slight exception, the impressive sound engines have not gone to the next level. And for the most part, Korg has not applied their high level talent to show off programming expertise and greater potential of same sound engines.

and native Karma is also dormant from development.

I realize none of this was expressly promised 8-9 years ago, But it would have been an impressive evolution for Kronos if Korg had shown more resources. This might be a little greedy but I like a company that pursues potential and commits and demonstrates long term for its customers.

There is a company named Nord that is fantastic for its owners and shows continuous improvement in its key products. I call that long term.

[burningbusch]

I've only viewed a few of the new Fantom videos and it's nothing I can see investing in unless there's some way to add 3rd party sample libraries (the only reason I'd invest in something like this).

The instrument seems similar to the Fantom G in basic philosophy. With the G, Roland put a big emphasis on the large screen for internal sequencing, drum pads and even mouse control. I don't believe it sold well at all. The new Fantom seems similar in approach and customer segment targeting. But considering the G came out in 2008, I would have expected much more.

DAW integration is always tough as it's a moving target, especially with Apple products. There are TONS of controllers out there that have promised tight DAW integration and nearly all have come up short in the real world. I suppose NI's NKS is the best (and clearly FAR better than what Roland has done here), but even with NKS I know there are issues. If Roland had created an NKS-compatible controller, that would have been interesting.

I could never see investing up to $4,000 in what is essentially a closed system. When you spend that kind of money you expect a strong expanding library (Nord) or the ability to massively expand with you own/3rd party samples/sounds (Kronos). The Montage came out with limited expandability (and limited sound engines) and was not hugely successful. It was only when the $2,000 MODX hit did people start getting excited about Yamaha. [YES, you can expand the Montage with sounds/samples but compared to the libraries available on the Nord/Kronos, it's very small]. How happy are you going to be with that new Fantom in two years when you're sick of the sounds or are just looking for something more/better? That's OK in the $2,000 price range, but not in the high-end.

Are keyboard manufacturers motivated by others? Apparently not much. What has been the response to the hugely successful Nords? Virtually nothing. Or the Kronos with its multiple engines and streaming sampling? Nothing. This is a relatively small, niche marketplace and the manufacturers design products they feel fit the needs of their customers. They are looking to differentiate, rather than mimic. Whatever Korg has in the works, I doubt it's influenced by this new Roland.

Busch.

[Lightbringer]

First I'll give some props to Roland. I own quite a bit of their gear (keyboards, guitar synths and processors, v-drums) and they make high quality good sounding stuff. They've done their homework here:

1. They created a UI that looks like it was designed sometime during this century.
2. They've studied the competition and created a differentiated product. They've found things that people will want and that Kronos and Montage don't have.

I think they'll get some market share from that.

But I don't see a Kronos killer in the Fantom. From what I've seen the Kronos is far more feature complete at this point. I doubt they'll catch it with updates any time soon. Happy to be wrong about that though.

One thing that's kind of disappointing given that they've completely rebooted the Fantom is that I don't see anything ground-breaking and brand new in it. I see a lot of "best of" tech rolled together:

- Ableton-like clip sequencer
- TR-like step sequencer
- NI Massive-like wavetable LFO
- Tried and true analog filter
- Preset morph from [various software synths]

to name a few examples. But I don't see anything no one's ever done before. Nothing absolutely earth-shakingly new and innovative for $4k.

When I ask myself what musically and sonically could I accomplish with a Fantom that I can't accomplish with my Kronos, nothing much is really coming to mind. If I reverse that question though, the answer changes quite a bit. This is just based on what I've seen in Youtube demos.

So will Korg take notice and have a response? Who knows. Competition is always good. But I'm not going to sell off my Kronos to buy a Fantom at this point. If I were choosing one vs. the other today, K still looks like a clear better value to me. If they drop a major firmware update I'll re-evaluate of course.

[burningbusch]

I realize none of this was expressly promised 8-9 years ago, But it would have been an impressive evolution for Kronos if Korg had shown more resources. This might be a little greedy but I like a company that pursues potential and commits and demonstrates long term for its customers.

There is a company named Nord that is fantastic for its owners and shows continuous improvement in its key products. I call that long term.

Greedy! Give me a break.

Yes, Nord has done a great job providing its free, expanding library, BUT REMEMBER, Nord has provided very limited feature enhancements to its older models, instead pushing out new versions with those upgraded features. Had Nord approached the Stage with the same mindset as the Kronos, a Stage I would have equal capabilities to the latest model, which it clearly does not. Even minor tweaks to the Leslie Sim, organs, filters, etc. etc. require owners to dump the previous model to upgrade to the newest. Many loyal Nord owners have done just this.

So Korg has provided free system updates which have added tons of capabilities but have generally charged $$$s for new sample libraries. Nord, on the other hand, has provided the free library but required users to purchase a completely new instrument each time they've upgraded features/capabilities. Both companies have provided a unique, but different approach to long term support and have a much better track record, IMO, than the others (with the possible exception of Kurzweil). I will say from some user's experience Yamaha does seem to stand behind their products if they fail out of warranty.

Busch.

[Scott]

Are keyboard manufacturers motivated by others? Apparently not much. What has been the response to the hugely successful Nords? Virtually nothing. Or the Kronos with its multiple engines and streaming sampling? Nothing.

I'd say that Roland VR09/VR730, Korg's Vox Continental, Yamaha CP73/CP88 are probably at least somewhat Nord-inspired... and there's a little of that in the Fantom as well, with its dedicated synth knobs, which is a rarity in a multi-purpose board. If it had a decent organ engine (perhaps forthcoming?), it could be a decent Nord Stage 3 competitor, without so many of the Nord's limitations in terms of split/layer capabilities, MIDI functionality, output routing, front panel patch selection facilities, single-velocity (non-piano) samples... and the perks like endless encoders and trigger pads are nice too. As a performance board, the main NS3's advantages are the organ, the travel weight, and dedicated effects controls. But something like the Fantom 61 is not entirely non-competitive with the Nord, if they can get a decent organ into it (even if you have to route it to an assignable out to put a rotary pedal on it). Fantom does strike me as more of a "hands-on" (and in that respect, Nord-style) board than workstations have traditionally been. Interesting question as to how much vendors are inspired by the competition vs. developing in their own world for who they perceive as their own target customers. But there does seem to be some Montage influence in the Fantom's design, in addition to possibly that bit of Nord influence.

No one else seems to have take the Kronos approach of using basically building a system around a stock PC board running linux, which has its pros and cons (the pros are obvious, the trade-offs are boot time and the difficulty of scaling the tech down to cheaper boards). But we have at least some movement toward multiple engines and large sample sets.

[GregC]

I realize none of this was expressly promised 8-9 years ago, But it would have been an impressive evolution for Kronos if Korg had shown more resources. This might be a little greedy but I like a company that pursues potential and commits and demonstrates long term for its customers.

There is a company named Nord that is fantastic for its owners and shows continuous improvement in its key products. I call that long term.

Greedy! Give me a break.

Yes, Nord has done a great job providing its free, expanding library, BUT REMEMBER, Nord has provided very limited feature enhancements to its older models, instead pushing out new versions with those upgraded features. Had Nord approached the Stage with the same mindset as the Kronos, a Stage I would have equal capabilities to the latest model, which it clearly does not. Even minor tweaks to the Leslie Sim, organs, filters, etc. etc. require owners to dump the previous model to upgrade to the newest. Many loyal Nord owners have done just this.

So Korg has provided free system updates which have added tons of capabilities but have generally charged $$$s for new sample libraries. Nord, on the other hand, has provided the free library but required users to purchase a completely new instrument each time they've upgraded features/capabilities. Both companies have provided a unique, but different approach to long term support and have a much better track record, IMO, than the others (with the possible exception of Kurzweil). I will say from some user's experience Yamaha does seem to stand behind their products if they fail out of warranty.

Busch.

William, always fun to spar with you.

The last significant up date was ver 3.1 with the quick layer split. Back in Dec 2016. But 3.1.1 was needed to make some fixes.

So yeah, what has rev'd since then is ok, but not feature significant.

I don't mind asking for more based on the last 3 years from Korg.
I know how to contact Korg directly.

Anyone/everyone being completely satisfied is ok, too.

2 opposite statements can be equally true.

When I polled Keyboard Corner last year, it was a Nord love fest for +10 pages. And the used market for Nord is reportedly strong. So if an older model got no update benefit, the keyboard held very good value.

[jimknopf]

@scott
Concerning the Jupiters: I don't mind some additional content, as long as I don't find that IN PLACE OF actual synth sounds they have and I would expect to see, but they refuse to put into the Jupiters. I want it exactly the other way round: best of Roland synths - status now. Not a weird mixed bag instead. They can do it like they want. I just won't buy it like that.

And concerning the Jupiter XM (which I might find interesting like you) surface: on a subtractive synth, I always want two ADSR controllers (for filter and amp), and not just one, with switching back and forth. I don't mind, which historic budget synths had that already, or if Behringer put that same one envelope nonsense onto the Deepmind: I simply don't want to use a subtractive synth like that, because the two envelopes are interdependant and should be programmed interdependant on the fly. I clearly would have ditched other elements on the surface, or found some solution, just to preserve the two envelopes.

[Scott]

Concerning the Jupiters: I don't mind some additional content, as long as I don't find that IN PLACE OF actual synth sounds they have and I would expect to see, but they refuse to put into the Jupiters. I want it exactly the other way round: best of Roland synths - status now. Not a weird mixed bag instead.

What "best of Roland synths" content do you think should be in the Jupiter X that isn't there?

And concerning the Jupiter XM (which I might find interesting like you) surface: on a subtractive synth, I always want two ADSR controllers (for filter and amp), and not just one, with switching back and forth.

That's why they make the Jupiter X. So either you pay for the full control surface or you don't. Though I suppose you could supplement the Xm with some external controls, too.

[GregC]

In case anyone likes to plan, and consider what Korg might do in the premium
synthesizer keyboard space, I have some opinions.

1)Don't expect a workstation. The dividing lines between this term and other types of premium boards has been blurred.

2) I am guessing Korg has been working on a new concept product.

3) Assigning some probability to ' when ' such a expensive product will be announced;

60% chance by NAMM 2020
40% chance further out

And we will see in a few months. I have no inside info, not even a dust particle.

[KK]

...the impressive sound engines have not gone to the next level. And for the most part, Korg has not applied their high level talent to show off programming expertise and greater potential of same sound engines.

I wonder what the next level of synth engines like the AL-1 or MOD-7 could be. Sorry by IMO anyone implying that those Kronos EXis in particular are in any way out of date or been eaten by the competition tells me that this person obviously didn't spend enough time to experiment/master them.

With the AL-1, I program/reproduce very accurately sounds like JMJ's laser harp synth, ELP's most complex Moog Modular live sounds, all Vangelis' Spiral synths, you name them. Sure it takes effort/time, but this EXi alone can nail pretty much any synth sound if you want to. MOD-7 ? How many Kronos owners out of the 50 000 units sold explored it to maybe one quarter of its potential ? Five percent ?

One can be totally thrilled by the new Roland/Yamaha/Nord thing just out. After all, we can all be blinded from time to time by the usual new-is-better gear acquisition syndrome. But the Kronos, limited in potential ? I'm impressed you already tried everything the AL-1 offers. Below is what's available in each single program.

[GregC]

...the impressive sound engines have not gone to the next level. And for the most part, Korg has not applied their high level talent to show off programming expertise and greater potential of same sound engines.

I wonder what the next level of synth engines like the AL-1 or MOD-7 could be. Sorry by IMO anyone implying that those Kronos EXis in particular are in any way out of date or been eaten by the competition tells me that this person obviously didn't spend enough time to experiment/master them.

With the AL-1, I program/reproduce very accurately sounds like JMJ's laser harp synth, ELP's most complex Moog Modular live sounds, all Vangelis' Spiral synths, you name them. Sure it takes effort/time, but this EXi alone can nail pretty much any synth sound if you want to. MOD-7 ? How many Kronos owners out of the 50 000 units sold explored it to maybe one quarter of its potential ? Five percent ?

Og]

I recall some of your ELP like recordings. I agree, you did a good job with the EXi's.

Simply stated, I don't have the time or skill to dive in deep with the UI. Like you do. As stated I would be happy to pay for high level programming.
FYI, I am not very interested in covers.

I would be happy to entertain or demo and a persons expertise with the sound engine programming. My goals is to apply that to my originals. In addition, I give credit on my originals to 3rd parties, like Sound of Planet.

If you see something really great with AL-1, Mod-7 , ST-1 programming. that is not a cover, tell me about it. I have looked and looked.

[burningbusch]

I'd say that Roland VR09/VR730, Korg's Vox Continental, Yamaha CP73/CP88 are probably at least somewhat Nord-inspired... and there's a little of that in the Fantom as well, with its dedicated synth knobs, which is a rarity in a multi-purpose board. If it had a decent organ engine (perhaps forthcoming?), it could be a decent Nord Stage 3 competitor, without so many of the Nord's limitations in terms of split/layer capabilities, MIDI functionality, output routing, front panel patch selection facilities, single-velocity (non-piano) samples... and the perks like endless encoders and trigger pads are nice too. As a performance board, the main NS3's advantages are the organ, the travel weight, and dedicated effects controls. But something like the Fantom 61 is not entirely non-competitive with the Nord, if they can get a decent organ into it (even if you have to route it to an assignable out to put a rotary pedal on it). Fantom does strike me as more of a "hands-on" (and in that respect, Nord-style) board than workstations have traditionally been. Interesting question as to how much vendors are inspired by the competition vs. developing in their own world for who they perceive as their own target customers. But there does seem to be some Montage influence in the Fantom's design, in addition to possibly that bit of Nord influence.

Nord has a vintage vibe that the others, for the most part, can't match. There are a lot of younger players who would be happy with a Wurly 140B, a moog mono synth and maybe a vintage string machine. That's cool. That's what they want on stage, not some digital workstation with touchscreens and flashing lights. But they'll play a Nord. Nord has convinced people they don't make ROMplers even though you can load them up with all the digital samples you find in any ROMpler. They won the perception battle. Roland doesn't seem to understand (or possibly doesn't care) as none of their stuff has a vintage flavor to it. Yamaha sorta, kinda does with the newest CP pianos. And Korg has to a degree with the SV-1, Continental and Grandstage, but it's not the same thing.

What makes Nord unique is the vintage vibe, expandable library and (largely) single-purpose, dedicated controls. Nord knows its customers well and is laser-beam focused on what it delivers. No one has come up with anything that's a direct Nord competitor.

Busch.

[KK]

FYI, I am not very interested in covers.

If you see something really great with AL-1, Mod-7 , ST-1 programming. that is not a cover, tell me about it. I have looked and looked.

One can program sounds exactly like what was used by some great keyboardist or band, but not just to play only the same piece (do covers). For example, certain synth sounds can be used in a totally different context as well. A hard sync synth like the JMJ laser harp can be modified until it becomes something different and used in different contexts.

I also like to create splits usable for different styles. For example, I have these combis with let's say a piano or acoustic guitar on the left and different solo voice sounds on the right. You can then pretend to play smooth new age stuff or switch to a much more dry and down-to-earth orchestral context with another lead female solo vocal. So a single program, even initially made to emulate a given goal, can find other uses and styles, etc. I'm sure you know about that too.

A big strength that I really like about the Kronos is its sampling features. When I have free time (wish I had more), I continue this big work creating a complete grand organ, a huge Casavant instrument in the city I was born that I could record for free with their kind permission. There will be +/- 80 stops (different sounds) once all done. Maybe next year, if I'm lucky.

[theshinenz]

I'd say that Roland VR09/VR730, Korg's Vox Continental, Yamaha CP73/CP88 are probably at least somewhat Nord-inspired... and there's a little of that in the Fantom as well, with its dedicated synth knobs, which is a rarity in a multi-purpose board. If it had a decent organ engine (perhaps forthcoming?), it could be a decent Nord Stage 3 competitor, without so many of the Nord's limitations in terms of split/layer capabilities, MIDI functionality, output routing, front panel patch selection facilities, single-velocity (non-piano) samples... and the perks like endless encoders and trigger pads are nice too. As a performance board, the main NS3's advantages are the organ, the travel weight, and dedicated effects controls. But something like the Fantom 61 is not entirely non-competitive with the Nord, if they can get a decent organ into it (even if you have to route it to an assignable out to put a rotary pedal on it). Fantom does strike me as more of a "hands-on" (and in that respect, Nord-style) board than workstations have traditionally been. Interesting question as to how much vendors are inspired by the competition vs. developing in their own world for who they perceive as their own target customers. But there does seem to be some Montage influence in the Fantom's design, in addition to possibly that bit of Nord influence.

Nord has a vintage vibe that the others, for the most part, can't match. There are a lot of younger players who would be happy with a Wurly 140B, a moog mono synth and maybe a vintage string machine. That's cool. That's what they want on stage, not some digital workstation with touchscreens and flashing lights. But they'll play a Nord. Nord has convinced people they don't make ROMplers even though you can load them up with all the digital samples you find in any ROMpler. They won the perception battle. Roland doesn't seem to understand (or possibly doesn't care) as none of their stuff has a vintage flavor to it. Yamaha sorta, kinda does with the newest CP pianos. And Korg has to a degree with the SV-1, Continental and Grandstage, but it's not the same thing.

What makes Nord unique is the vintage vibe, expandable library and (largely) single-purpose, dedicated controls. Nord knows its customers well and is laser-beam focused on what it delivers. No one has come up with anything that's a direct Nord competitor.

Busch.

So Nord is for the hipsters who want to work within the box that Nord gives them. I just sold my NS3. I agree that if pianos organs and eps are your main focus then it works well. But if you like to split/later and control other gear it’s very limited. The Fantom sounds huge after using the Nord, and is quicker to program on. The sampled sounds on the Nord sound thin... and the synth section is too limited, I couldn’t even pitch mod a supersaw on the Nord, along with the silly fixed split points and two external control channels.

[Kevbo]

I think the best of both worlds would be a Kronos 88 and a new Roland Fantom -76 for the synth action. MIDI those two up, and you've got all you need for home studio and gigging (though that's a lot of weight to throw around).

I really liked the Fantom G when it came out years ago, but didn't have the money back then to purchase one. Coincidentally, I was looking online to purchase a Roland G7, but there are NONE for sale. BUMMER! Then I see Roland just released the new Fantom. I had no idea it was even in the works.

I think the screen is bigger on the Fantom G than this new one, but I'm not entirely sure. However, unless Roland decided to record many of their instruments, I haven't been too impressed with their acoustic instruments. I like to record instrumental/orchestral music, and Kronos still seems to be leading on those...next to the VSTs that I like to use.