Yamaha Reface
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
It will happen one day....aron wrote:Sorry to drag this up but come on, what if they made a reface VL1 and brought back the breath controller. I'd be all over it!!!!!!
Seems Yamaha is adding all those technollogies into their AWM engine... Just like VA and other virtuall technollogies are part of Halion 5..
When you look at the current version of AWM2 you can allready see many moddeling technollogies being part of it, EAM, SCM, AEM, VRM and some more.. VL technollogies are allready part of the EAM modulation of the SA2 voies in Tyros 5..
With all these additions to their base sampling engine, Yamaha is recreating it as state of the art.. and the VA and FM and organ YC engines are probably allready integrated into or on top of AWM2.. VL and VP and other will follow for sure
Because of the current verstallity of their engine Yamaha could create these Reface instruments based on the old cheap technollogy and single parts of their AWM2 moddeling enhanced engine...
I'm not sure if they will bring the breath controller back. But wow, I would love a REAL VL1 again since mine is getting close to the age when it will probably break (capacitors).
I am lucky enough to have met Toshifumi and he said the VL1 was very simple compared to what he is doing now. I can't blame Yamaha for iterating the Motif. It does sound good and I do ask for it for backline. What would be funny is a Motif XFace - full on Motif XF voices in a reface form factor. Just rent a controller and plug in! Now that would be funny!
As for the PLG boards - I don't know why but they never sounded like the "real stuff". I had them in my CS6X which I loved - but the keybed was terrible. It used to play random notes at velocity 127 on ballads!!!!!
I am lucky enough to have met Toshifumi and he said the VL1 was very simple compared to what he is doing now. I can't blame Yamaha for iterating the Motif. It does sound good and I do ask for it for backline. What would be funny is a Motif XFace - full on Motif XF voices in a reface form factor. Just rent a controller and plug in! Now that would be funny!
As for the PLG boards - I don't know why but they never sounded like the "real stuff". I had them in my CS6X which I loved - but the keybed was terrible. It used to play random notes at velocity 127 on ballads!!!!!
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad.
There are a few more videos of the Reface on YouTube.
Finally a video from the company worthy of mention :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ9SlIm2ak4
It's hilarious, the same guy in different styles playing the 4 Refaces.
For me the YC (organ) sounds really good.
Finally a video from the company worthy of mention :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ9SlIm2ak4
It's hilarious, the same guy in different styles playing the 4 Refaces.
For me the YC (organ) sounds really good.
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Kevin Nolan
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What I find a bit curious about Reface is that they are placed in a very "80's" context in essentially all the demos I 've heard. There's not a wiff of "EDM" about them.
To me, they all sound _very_ strong - I don't believe there's a weak sound possible from any of them. Furthermore - they are built to a very high standards and quality.
And then - mini keys. I know we've trashed this out but I bring it up again because by now it is honestly clear that they sound _very_ strong - there is no doubting the sonics quality of these instruments - they are build to be really played - yet - they are equipped with mini-keys.
I accept they are being played well in the demo videos, but any keyboard player would prefer full sized keys - and as Yamaha themselves are demoing - these are for 'players'.
It doesn't add up, to me. I just don't get where Yamaha are coming from, and why they could not have given each of these a 3.5 or 4 octave full sized keyboard. These devices are not for your average DJ.
I agree the YC is incredible sounding - but to me they all sound very strong. I just hope they all appear in some sort of combo device with a full sized keyboard.
To me, they all sound _very_ strong - I don't believe there's a weak sound possible from any of them. Furthermore - they are built to a very high standards and quality.
And then - mini keys. I know we've trashed this out but I bring it up again because by now it is honestly clear that they sound _very_ strong - there is no doubting the sonics quality of these instruments - they are build to be really played - yet - they are equipped with mini-keys.
I accept they are being played well in the demo videos, but any keyboard player would prefer full sized keys - and as Yamaha themselves are demoing - these are for 'players'.
It doesn't add up, to me. I just don't get where Yamaha are coming from, and why they could not have given each of these a 3.5 or 4 octave full sized keyboard. These devices are not for your average DJ.
I agree the YC is incredible sounding - but to me they all sound very strong. I just hope they all appear in some sort of combo device with a full sized keyboard.
Reface DX is strong candidate for next external gear.
32 preset locations at least, the only Reface that has presets.
But just had my KingKorg a couple of days, and not sure if I will miss anything yet. Just overwhelmed by KK really.
32 preset locations at least, the only Reface that has presets.
But just had my KingKorg a couple of days, and not sure if I will miss anything yet. Just overwhelmed by KK really.
MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05
So I admit I haven't read every post in the thread, so hopefully I am not missing anything too important.
I am VERY interested in the CS....to a point where I am pretty sure I"ll order one in a week or so.
Now I am a professional musician, I am 52, a don't do EDM, but I do play prog and new age.
What appeals to me are a few things.
1. I still own a Yamaha CS-01. It was a mini key synth that the CS was clearly based upon. It was a very cool and playable little synth. Even Chick Corea used one. It was very limited in what it could do, but what it did it did very well.
The CS literally addresses everything I wish my CS-01 had. To the letter.
2. I am a guy who still uses a real mono/poly and most of the synths I've owned in my life didn't have a memory. No memory (except of course via ios device) is not an issue for me, and less so because for most of your standard lead or bass synth sounds, dialing them up should be very fast on this.
3. Midi. I can use the CS on it's own, but I can also midi it to my Kross to use as a second keyboard controller for the odd sound I need in a combi and have run out of split room, or would prefer to perform on another keyboard over hitting a switch to change sounds.
Now to address some criticisms:
Mini-keys:
I am not too worried about them on what is essentially a mono synth. As I mentioned the CS-01 has the same keys and is very playable. I'm not sure I'd want to play piano on them though.
I think the mini keys was a bad decision though. first they would only have needed to narrow the end plastic and lengthened the overall instrument by a couple inches and they could have had three octaves of full sized keys.
Secondly I still have my old Yamaha KX5 remote controller (keytar as the kids call them) The KX5 has a three octave keyboard, but the keys are not as long as standard, they are as wide though. The Refaces are no deeper than the KX 5 so I suspect if it were an issue with the end of the keys we don't see, this might have worked really well. Additionally it could be marketed right along with their whole vintage Yamaha gear vibe, because the KX 5 had them as did I believe the famous Emerson GX 1
All that said...guitar players have to deal with smaller frets as they get higher on the neck or is they pick up a mandolin. So I sometimes think keyboardists can be a bit whiny on it. I will say though I would rather have three octaves of mini keys, than 2 octaves of full sized keys.
"Why not get an ipad app?"
I have the iMini and animoog apps and have had a few others, but I have to say, a touch screen is not the same as real physical knobs and sliders. Plus the argument runs with the assumption we all already have ipads. If you don't, guess what?....the ipad with a controller and an app or two is more expensive than the reface.(granted it can also check email and facebook bla bla bla)
The other thing is that almost everyone I've heard from who has actually played one, loved it. Even those who don't want to like them like them.
I wish they were about $100 cheaper too, but all that said.....I'm kind of pumped to get one. If I could swing it I'd love the CP and YC too.
The DX....I still have nightmares of programming the DX7 so no thank you!
I am VERY interested in the CS....to a point where I am pretty sure I"ll order one in a week or so.
Now I am a professional musician, I am 52, a don't do EDM, but I do play prog and new age.
What appeals to me are a few things.
1. I still own a Yamaha CS-01. It was a mini key synth that the CS was clearly based upon. It was a very cool and playable little synth. Even Chick Corea used one. It was very limited in what it could do, but what it did it did very well.
The CS literally addresses everything I wish my CS-01 had. To the letter.
2. I am a guy who still uses a real mono/poly and most of the synths I've owned in my life didn't have a memory. No memory (except of course via ios device) is not an issue for me, and less so because for most of your standard lead or bass synth sounds, dialing them up should be very fast on this.
3. Midi. I can use the CS on it's own, but I can also midi it to my Kross to use as a second keyboard controller for the odd sound I need in a combi and have run out of split room, or would prefer to perform on another keyboard over hitting a switch to change sounds.
Now to address some criticisms:
Mini-keys:
I am not too worried about them on what is essentially a mono synth. As I mentioned the CS-01 has the same keys and is very playable. I'm not sure I'd want to play piano on them though.
I think the mini keys was a bad decision though. first they would only have needed to narrow the end plastic and lengthened the overall instrument by a couple inches and they could have had three octaves of full sized keys.
Secondly I still have my old Yamaha KX5 remote controller (keytar as the kids call them) The KX5 has a three octave keyboard, but the keys are not as long as standard, they are as wide though. The Refaces are no deeper than the KX 5 so I suspect if it were an issue with the end of the keys we don't see, this might have worked really well. Additionally it could be marketed right along with their whole vintage Yamaha gear vibe, because the KX 5 had them as did I believe the famous Emerson GX 1
All that said...guitar players have to deal with smaller frets as they get higher on the neck or is they pick up a mandolin. So I sometimes think keyboardists can be a bit whiny on it. I will say though I would rather have three octaves of mini keys, than 2 octaves of full sized keys.
"Why not get an ipad app?"
I have the iMini and animoog apps and have had a few others, but I have to say, a touch screen is not the same as real physical knobs and sliders. Plus the argument runs with the assumption we all already have ipads. If you don't, guess what?....the ipad with a controller and an app or two is more expensive than the reface.(granted it can also check email and facebook bla bla bla)
The other thing is that almost everyone I've heard from who has actually played one, loved it. Even those who don't want to like them like them.
I wish they were about $100 cheaper too, but all that said.....I'm kind of pumped to get one. If I could swing it I'd love the CP and YC too.
The DX....I still have nightmares of programming the DX7 so no thank you!
Stage: Korg Krome 88
Home: above plus Korg Kross 61, Korg m1, original Korg Mono/poly, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha KX-5
Home: above plus Korg Kross 61, Korg m1, original Korg Mono/poly, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha KX-5
Well, except for the mini keys, everyone agrees that they are great sounding usefull instruments.... Yamaha should really keep an eye on how Roland solved this with the boutique series...
(Altough if the boutique series keys are anything like the system 1 keys they are utterly useless)
Roland somehow seems to have made a step recently realising they need to create instruments in a format musicians would like to play own and buy..
(Altough if the boutique series keys are anything like the system 1 keys they are utterly useless)
Roland somehow seems to have made a step recently realising they need to create instruments in a format musicians would like to play own and buy..
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Kevin Nolan
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I don't agree with your view on Roland, Bachus.
I own many Roland synth, and feel that over recent years they have received harsh criticism that has impacted sales. But through all of that there was always innovation: LA Synthesis, COSM, Vocal Design, Variphrase, Virtual Analogue, Supersaw, Supernatural Acoustic, V-Technology, Articulation Phrase Synthesis, ...
The best example of an implementation of all of that is the V-Synth GT, perhaps the most underrated synthesiser of the past ten years. In my view the straw that broke the camel's back was the Jupiter 80. Again, a stunning instrument innovation wise (admittedly with flaws); but devastated by wide criticism, mostly based on it being called a Jupiter!
So I see Roland as having abandoned all of that innovation and release a lot of quite disposable technology. The JD-XA is, in my opinion, quite tacky; while the Boutique range seem to me to be like Yellow-pack synths - cheap as chips and utterly disposable. System 1M does have real merit - but the AIRA and Plugout range suffer from a lack of class complaint drivers so will be out of date in a few years and it will not be possible to load plugouts onto a System-1 - so again it has a limited life span.
So I see it that Roland are releasing lots of junk, it's all sweet-and-tasty - but none of it has any innovation on board - it's all a rehash, in worse formats, than what was available decades ago, and critically, it's all cheap and disposable.
I worry that Roland's new owners have no sense of quality and character, or of their company's legacy, and I'd worry whether they can survive even a few more years; once everyone leave their disposable products behind and move on.
I'm not sure what Yamaha are up to. On the face of it Reface has some endearing qualities, but if that's all there is, then Yamaha Synthesis could so the same route as Roland. Neither of them, as it stands, has a future in synthesis in my opinion. you cannot make a sustainable business in selling cheap and tacky products - it's a race to the bottom; so I hope both companies return to formative, serious synthesis too - as challenging as that is too.
I own many Roland synth, and feel that over recent years they have received harsh criticism that has impacted sales. But through all of that there was always innovation: LA Synthesis, COSM, Vocal Design, Variphrase, Virtual Analogue, Supersaw, Supernatural Acoustic, V-Technology, Articulation Phrase Synthesis, ...
The best example of an implementation of all of that is the V-Synth GT, perhaps the most underrated synthesiser of the past ten years. In my view the straw that broke the camel's back was the Jupiter 80. Again, a stunning instrument innovation wise (admittedly with flaws); but devastated by wide criticism, mostly based on it being called a Jupiter!
So I see Roland as having abandoned all of that innovation and release a lot of quite disposable technology. The JD-XA is, in my opinion, quite tacky; while the Boutique range seem to me to be like Yellow-pack synths - cheap as chips and utterly disposable. System 1M does have real merit - but the AIRA and Plugout range suffer from a lack of class complaint drivers so will be out of date in a few years and it will not be possible to load plugouts onto a System-1 - so again it has a limited life span.
So I see it that Roland are releasing lots of junk, it's all sweet-and-tasty - but none of it has any innovation on board - it's all a rehash, in worse formats, than what was available decades ago, and critically, it's all cheap and disposable.
I worry that Roland's new owners have no sense of quality and character, or of their company's legacy, and I'd worry whether they can survive even a few more years; once everyone leave their disposable products behind and move on.
I'm not sure what Yamaha are up to. On the face of it Reface has some endearing qualities, but if that's all there is, then Yamaha Synthesis could so the same route as Roland. Neither of them, as it stands, has a future in synthesis in my opinion. you cannot make a sustainable business in selling cheap and tacky products - it's a race to the bottom; so I hope both companies return to formative, serious synthesis too - as challenging as that is too.
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Derek Cook
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Hear, hear!Kevin Nolan wrote:.... so I hope both companies return to formative, serious synthesis too - as challenging as that is too.
The Reface range get a pretty good write up in Sound On Sound, but of course the review mentions that Mini Keys are not for everybody and the reviewer mentioned difficulty adapting to the keysize.
And that's still what puts me off them. Having started off on minikeys with the cheap Casios that were all I could afford in the 80s, I have no desire to go back to cramping my fingers up.
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Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website
Kevin Nolan wrote:I don't agree with your view on Roland, Bachus.
I own many Roland synth, and feel that over recent years they have received harsh criticism that has impacted sales. But through all of that there was always innovation: LA Synthesis, COSM, Vocal Design, Variphrase, Virtual Analogue, Supersaw, Supernatural Acoustic, V-Technology, Articulation Phrase Synthesis, ...
The best example of an implementation of all of that is the V-Synth GT, perhaps the most underrated synthesiser of the past ten years. In my view the straw that broke the camel's back was the Jupiter 80. Again, a stunning instrument innovation wise (admittedly with flaws); but devastated by wide criticism, mostly based on it being called a Jupiter!
So I see Roland as having abandoned all of that innovation and release a lot of quite disposable technology. The JD-XA is, in my opinion, quite tacky; while the Boutique range seem to me to be like Yellow-pack synths - cheap as chips and utterly disposable. System 1M does have real merit - but the AIRA and Plugout range suffer from a lack of class complaint drivers so will be out of date in a few years and it will not be possible to load plugouts onto a System-1 - so again it has a limited life span.
So I see it that Roland are releasing lots of junk, it's all sweet-and-tasty - but none of it has any innovation on board - it's all a rehash, in worse formats, than what was available decades ago, and critically, it's all cheap and disposable.
I worry that Roland's new owners have no sense of quality and character, or of their company's legacy, and I'd worry whether they can survive even a few more years; once everyone leave their disposable products behind and move on.
I'm not sure what Yamaha are up to. On the face of it Reface has some endearing qualities, but if that's all there is, then Yamaha Synthesis could so the same route as Roland. Neither of them, as it stands, has a future in synthesis in my opinion. you cannot make a sustainable business in selling cheap and tacky products - it's a race to the bottom; so I hope both companies return to formative, serious synthesis too - as challenging as that is too.
Dont you think that the technollogy of the boutique series is an innovation, its a step forward for the super natural synth (va) technollogy, that allows this technollogy not just to create VA synth sounds, but accurately copy the sound of previous Roland analogue products...
Having class compliant drivers has been an issue for a very long time with Roland... My nefews have a G70, that fails to communicate with the latest Mac Osx as wel as with Windows 10... And there are more examples where older Roland products fail to operate in newer environments, because the lack of driver updates.. I agree this is a major issue with Roland..
For the JD-XA there definately is a group of customers, but many of those customers choose for the competition like the prophet 6..
Also the RD-800 and the new LX-17 piano range show that Roland is still top of the game in these areas... The new pha-50 keys have a sensational feel..
In the end, i think the innovation is still there...
And what to expect from Yamaha in the future? Just look at the halion 5 softsynth, it shows you what to expect from the next itteration of the AWM engine that will surface in their next workstation.. Combining traditional sample play with VA features, VL features(sa2) FM and many other virtualisation effects in a semi modular environment that lets you montage your own sounds.
Also the engine should be fully audio capable.. With real time transpose of audio tracks..
Their pattern mode will be hugely advanced, becomming a clone of ableton.. Combined with features to follow a chordprogression..
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Kevin Nolan
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Why not release a new Jupiter 8 with that sound, but with exactly the same keyboard and controls of the original - and while you're at it, add some new innovations such as the kind of polyphonic aftertouch control found in the roli or xkey.
Or - give it 256 note polyphony
Or - give it some of the V-Synth's capabilities
Or - link it into a new Plugout system that allows you to download Juno 10x, JX3P, JX8P, JX10, D50, JD800 ....
Why not provide class compliant drivers?
Why not link it into all DAWS and not just their own
Why not integrate it with proper Librarian or sequencer capabilities as with the Arturia plugins
Why not release a 7 1/4 Octave version
Why not release the V-Synth GT with 10 times the DSP power and always ultra-low aliasing oscillators
.....
they are scraping the barrel - to sell boxes. Fine - no problem with that - but - it's not innovation - it's at the bottom of the scale in terms of foresight, capability, vision, aspiration
No problem with them selling junk, but it's not at the level they used to aim - it's a lon, LONG way away from that.
Or - give it 256 note polyphony
Or - give it some of the V-Synth's capabilities
Or - link it into a new Plugout system that allows you to download Juno 10x, JX3P, JX8P, JX10, D50, JD800 ....
Why not provide class compliant drivers?
Why not link it into all DAWS and not just their own
Why not integrate it with proper Librarian or sequencer capabilities as with the Arturia plugins
Why not release a 7 1/4 Octave version
Why not release the V-Synth GT with 10 times the DSP power and always ultra-low aliasing oscillators
.....
they are scraping the barrel - to sell boxes. Fine - no problem with that - but - it's not innovation - it's at the bottom of the scale in terms of foresight, capability, vision, aspiration
No problem with them selling junk, but it's not at the level they used to aim - it's a lon, LONG way away from that.
I agree with you why move backwards in time, why not create a single workstation where you can combine several of these great Roland technollogies in a modular form to create new and exciting sounds of the highest level...Kevin Nolan wrote:Why not release a new Jupiter 8 with that sound, but with exactly the same keyboard and controls of the original - and while you're at it, add some new innovations such as the kind of polyphonic aftertouch control found in the roli or xkey.
Or - give it 256 note polyphony
Or - give it some of the V-Synth's capabilities
Or - link it into a new Plugout system that allows you to download Juno 10x, JX3P, JX8P, JX10, D50, JD800 ....
Why not provide class compliant drivers?
Why not link it into all DAWS and not just their own
Why not integrate it with proper Librarian or sequencer capabilities as with the Arturia plugins
Why not release a 7 1/4 Octave version
Why not release the V-Synth GT with 10 times the DSP power and always ultra-low aliasing oscillators
.....
they are scraping the barrel - to sell boxes. Fine - no problem with that - but - it's not innovation - it's at the bottom of the scale in terms of foresight, capability, vision, aspiration
No problem with them selling junk, but it's not at the level they used to aim - it's a lon, LONG way away from that.