Yamaha Reface

[SanderXpander]

I don't mean to put a strange twist on this conversation but NuSkoolTone died last week, you can read about it in the Kronos section. Of course I don't mean to stop you from making your argument but it's a little weird for many of us to see him quoted (and ridiculed).

[Bachus]

I don't mean to put a strange twist on this conversation but NuSkoolTone died last week, you can read about it in the Kronos section. Of course I don't mean to stop you from making your argument but it's a little weird for many of us to see him quoted (and ridiculed).

I fully agree with you, tough many non insiders ofcourse have no knowledge of this, so its not something you can prevent from happening...

[Oldretro]

Today I got the chance to play the Reface series and I must admit I was very wrong when I said it were just toys. At least they sound great although I still don't like the form factor. I was especially impressed by the sound of the CS which can be increadibly fat. Very close to the polyphonic CS series. Yamaha should really put this engine (but with more features like a second LFO and dedicated VCF envelope) into a more professional package in a future product.

[Broadwave]

Yamaha should really put this engine (but with more features like a second LFO and dedicated VCF envelope) into a more professional package in a future product.

Fingers crossed, Montage (when it's finally announced) will take care of all that

[Oldretro]

Yamaha should really put this engine (but with more features like a second LFO and dedicated VCF envelope) into a more professional package in a future product.

Fingers crossed, Montage (when it's finally announced) will take care of all that

Yes, I hope you're right. Although, seeing yuur reply i'd almost get the feeling you know more about it than you want (or allowed) to tell us

[Kevin Nolan]

Yamaha should really put this engine (but with more features like a second LFO and dedicated VCF envelope) into a more professional package in a future product.

Fingers crossed, Montage (when it's finally announced) will take care of all that

THE point of the envelope on Reface CS is to offer an entirely new way of managing Envelopes in a performance situation. I think you're missing the point.

The objective is NOT to provide separate envelopes - because it needs two hands to manipulate two envelopes so you can't also play while manipulating either one.

On Reface - there are 2 envelopes - but just once set of controls and an envelope mix fader that links to both - offering an entirely new way of manipulating the envelopes via one control when playing - with that control cleverly set to be quite musical. And the mix control is not a level mixer - it's an envelope rate/level mixer. It's doing quite a lot.

So it's a new, clever performance control - not a sound design control. You seem to be missing that point (as are quite a lot of people).


You may not like it - but - it's novel, musical and new - so it offers a new approach to subtractive synthesis not commonly available elsewhere.

Surel ythat should be applauded, and encouraged in general - with a view to offering other similar controls.

For example - imagine a single control linked to both cutoff and resonance combined, or one for LFO amount and rate. These would all offer new approaches to performing a synth.

This is what Yamaha are aiming for. It's echoes back to the row of performance control levers just above the ribbon controller on the CS80 and CS60.

It is after all, a performance synth.

Admittedly it'd be nice to have the separate ADSR's too - but - it' important to acknowledge that the envelope implementation on the Reface CS is not a problem, or limited - it's new and different and offers options not available if the two ADSR's weren't linked!


You don't have to like it, but it's new and unique quality must be given acknowledgment.

I love it !!


Kevin.

[slug]

For example - imagine a single control linked to both cutoff and resonance combined, or one for LFO amount and rate. These would all offer new approaches to performing a synth.

Not new and no need to imagine, for at the very least, Waldorf and Dave Smith Instruments have had multiple destinations for a single controller (or other modulation source) as a standard feature via their modulation matrix, so thats going back to at least the 90's.

[Oldretro]

Yamaha should really put this engine (but with more features like a second LFO and dedicated VCF envelope) into a more professional package in a future product.

Fingers crossed, Montage (when it's finally announced) will take care of all that

THE point of the envelope on Reface CS is to offer an entirely new way of managing Envelopes in a performance situation. I think you're missing the point.

The objective is NOT to provide separate envelopes - because it needs two hands to manipulate two envelopes so you can't also play while manipulating either one.

On Reface - there are 2 envelopes - but just once set of controls and an envelope mix fader that links to both - offering an entirely new way of manipulating the envelopes via one control when playing - with that control cleverly set to be quite musical. And the mix control is not a level mixer - it's an envelope rate/level mixer. It's doing quite a lot.

So it's a new, clever performance control - not a sound design control. You seem to be missing that point (as are quite a lot of people).


You may not like it - but - it's novel, musical and new - so it offers a new approach to subtractive synthesis not commonly available elsewhere.

Surel ythat should be applauded, and encouraged in general - with a view to offering other similar controls.

For example - imagine a single control linked to both cutoff and resonance combined, or one for LFO amount and rate. These would all offer new approaches to performing a synth.

This is what Yamaha are aiming for. It's echoes back to the row of performance control levers just above the ribbon controller on the CS80 and CS60.

It is after all, a performance synth.

Admittedly it'd be nice to have the separate ADSR's too - but - it' important to acknowledge that the envelope implementation on the Reface CS is not a problem, or limited - it's new and different and offers options not available if the two ADSR's weren't linked!


You don't have to like it, but it's new and unique quality must be given acknowledgment.

I love it !!


Kevin.

I know what you mean by using one controller to influence more
parameters at once, I have had a CS-80 for years. I also can understand
that with a small form factor you can't build in everything. But for
instance I'd like to have the possibility to have a longer release and
higher sustain level on the VCA and a much shorter on the VCF, or that
the VCF has a reversed envelope amount. That would only be possible in
a bigger instrument. Or if you have a menu system, but in that case the
whole point of having maximum performance control is indeed lost. But I
think I'd still prefer some more features than is the case with Reface CS.

[Kevin Nolan]

For example - imagine a single control linked to both cutoff and resonance combined, or one for LFO amount and rate. These would all offer new approaches to performing a synth.

Not new and no need to imagine, for at the very least, Waldorf and Dave Smith Instruments have had multiple destinations for a single controller (or other modulation source) as a standard feature via their modulation matrix, so thats going back to at least the 90's.

Sure - but - almost nobody sets it up! I know some do, and that essentially all modern midi controllers can do it even with plugins - but - there is a difference if an instrument is designed specifically this way, and can't be changed! It leads to an different approach, different behaviour, that's actually used. That's legitimate - but - not pursued - by users or manufacturers, even in the types of options you point to.

Reface offers that - in a simple, usable and musical way. If you buy Reface, you have no choice but to use it - and it will lead to different results.


As the great Vangelis points out - immediacy is vital. I own OASYS 10 years next month and I haven't once, in all that time, set up a similar capability on it - even though I intended to do so many times.

The point I'm making is important - really important - from a music creation and approach point of view. Reface offers it immediately, other instruments don't.

[Shutoku]

So to update, I did indeed purchase a CS, and I absolutely LOVE it!

The Keyboard is a non issue really. The quality of the action is outstanding, and really negates some of the size issues. It takes a little adjusting at first of course, but then you are fine.
So much so that I am now using it as my second tier midi controller for my Kross, so I can run piano sounds from the Kross and hammond sounds from the CS for example, giving me a two keyboard rig that weighs in at 15 lbs!(plus the stand)
I wouldn't hesitate to add the YC to my rig, and the only reason I would hesitate on the CP is not the size of the keys, but because 3 octaves is too limiting for a piano IMHO. If they doubled the keyboard length for the CP I'd be all over it (though I still think for a piano I'd prefer full sized keys). In fact if Yamaha made a reface mellotron, I could easily go for an all reface rig!

As a synth it is really good. Super fast to dial up sounds, and very intuitive.
It does a surprisingly good job in the area of imitative work, and a fantastic job of more "analog synth" sounds. The immediacy is fantastic and inspiring.
I had a blast playing with a band and tweeking the sounds, "playing" the control panel live. This is IMHO how a synthesizer should be played. Not static presets, but sounds that grow and evolve within a solo or song.
I haven't tried the memory on my ipad yet except to check out the sample sounds on it, but I imagine it works just fine.
I'm not sure I would use it too much, because it is pretty fast to dial up a sound, and I developed a kind of short hand for describing the settings, which I could put on a set list for example. Kind of like how Hammond players diagram drawbar settings. Again this allows for the sound to be slightly different every time, which I think is more inspiring.

The build quality is outstanding. The only thing is I am not very fond of the midi dongle. It is awkward to put in. I marked the top with some "white out" because plugging it in in a low light environment would be close to impossible. I plan on ordering 2 or 3 extras from Yamaha, because I suspect once these go out of production, the dongles could be tough to find, and I think it is likely they could break. The wires are pretty thin and the plug into the CS seems fragile to me. If I weren't using it as midi controller for the Kross I wouldn't bother with midi at all.

Anyway it is in the running for my all time favourite synth to play. It is that good.

[Kevin Nolan]

Thanks for the review. It is great to hear such positive comments on this instrument. You're not the first to indicate that the build, and key, quality won you over, regarding its small size.

Enjoy !!

Kevin.

[slug]

Sure - but - almost nobody sets it up!

I find it hard to believe Im some super unique power user and that no one else uses this powerful and easily implemented feature, even other cheap synths like the original MicroKORG allow you to do this. I think the best implementation is on the Prophet 12, you dont even need to go into the mod matrix to set this patching up.

The point I'm making is important - really important - from a music creation and approach point of view. Reface offers it immediately, other instruments don't.

Oh now you are just trolling? Ok LOL.

[Broadwave]

Forgive me, but I'm still VERY confused about the EG routing...

Is it ONE envelope that is routed to the VCF & VCA via the mix paddle or is it TWO separate EGs (therefore different envelope shapes for the VCF & VCA) which is then crossfaded via the paddle.

If it is indeed TWO separate EGs each with independent settings controlled by a single set of ADSR sliders, then yes, I'd be impressed.

EDIT - Never mind, I tried one in Dawsons yesterday, it's Ok but I'll hold out for the JP-08.

[Kevin Nolan]

Sure - but - almost nobody sets it up!

I find it hard to believe Im some super unique power user and that no one else uses this powerful and easily implemented feature, even other cheap synths like the original MicroKORG allow you to do this. I think the best implementation is on the Prophet 12, you dont even need to go into the mod matrix to set this patching up.

The point I'm making is important - really important - from a music creation and approach point of view. Reface offers it immediately, other instruments don't.

Oh now you are just trolling? Ok LOL.

There was a famous statistic - and I don't remember the exact figures - but it was something like: over 90% of Prophet 5's sent in for repair had no new programs on them at all.

Almost nobody programs synths - and setting up what you propose - essentially nobody.


No one is saying its difficult - it's just time and convenience (or lack of). The fact is - and it is fact - you are in the minority, a tiny minority.


Take the OASYS and Kronos. they have 7 synth engines, and there are essentially no libraries of programs out there for the actual synth engines, and I can be confident that it is a tiny minority who bother to ever program them - let alone set up AMS and so forth.


But this isn't the point. Reface is not about linking several parameters as you propose - it's about new types of linkage, and easy, smart, permanent set of controls. That's it character. The EG, as it exists, probably couldn't be set up via a modulation matrix - it's more limited than that - but in a novel and musical way.

The point I'm making isn't even specific to synthesizers - there are all sorts of avenues in life we could pursue for betterment purposes but don't for pragmatic reasons. In this way, essentially no people get into programming even the easiest and most obvious synthesizers.


I'm really surprised you don't get the point on immediacy I'm talking about - and I assure you - on Korgforums - I am not trolling.

I own three mint condition CS80s - and the reason - the immediacy. the CS80 has dual channels of synthesis on the control surface - each with easily accessible controls for high and low pass filter and resonance on each (that is - high pass resonance AND low pass resonance controls on each of the dual channels).

But - what are the two controls I use, and that every CS80 owner uses, when affecting the sound through performance - the two controls - levers - called Brilliance and Resonance just above the keyboard that affects all four filters.

It't the exact same point - and the reason perhaps why I get it is because I own and use the CS80. the brilliance and resonance affect the overall sound of all filters - it's like having 4 sets of hands on all filter controls.

It's a performance control - not a synth parameter control.

the immediacy I'm talking about is everything - and it was Vangelis who drew my attention to it several decades ago where he expounded in every interview about the CS80's capabilities in this regard.

I picked up on it and knew I had to get a CS80. and he was right - like picking up a flute or a violin, there is no thinking, just immediacy - and that enables 'performance' like nothing else. the CS80 is _very special_ in this way - there literally isn't another instrument like it in existence - for immediate performance that is (that's all I'm on about here).


The Reface CS adopts that philosophy perfectly - it's a miniature reincarnation of the set of performance levers just above the keyboard on the CS80, and they have done a beautiful job - and more importantly - the new Yamaha engineers 'get' the immediacy and performance control dimension that in fact was prevalent in the the SY1 and 2, GX1, CS50, ,CS60 and CS80 - and interestingly not in the CS15, CS30, CS40M or CS70M (which are lacking in the same level of performance control although I also own the CS30, CS40M and CS70M and certainly the 40M has a different approach to performance control and the CS70M nt far behind).

So - Reface CS is ALL about immediacy and performance. It is NOT about synthesizer programming. If you don't get that, or want it - it's likely not for you.

[Oldretro]

Believe it or not, I decided to buy the Reface CS. It's hard to leave it alone
once you start playing with the controls. I'm still surprised how fat and
organic it can sound, especially with the saw waves. I never heard
anything like it before, except for the Roland System 1, including the SH-2
and System 100 plugin/plugouts. I think both Yamaha and Roland have set a
new standard. I still think the form factor is not for everyone, including me,
but I use an the KingKorg as midi keyboard. A nice surprise was that the
filter cut off, resonance, LFO 1 speed and depth, and also the amp envelope
could be controlled directly from the KingKorg, and I noticed no stepping.
Also surprisingly good is the effects section. At certain settings the
chorus/flanger even reminds me a lot of the chorus/tremolo on my CS-80.
Quite a bummer is the fact that the delay has (too) much aliasing when
the oscillator octave setting is high. Anyway, after initially being very
negative, I now think it's worth the money when you purely go for the
sound. I still don't like the size of the keys, and I never will