Yamaha New Synth with Alien Technology

Catch all the latest news here.

Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever

burningbusch
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant
Posts: 1203
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:42 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by burningbusch »

Devnor wrote:At this stage the perceived "need" for gigabytes of piano samples and/or streaming technology really only benefits those selling 3rd party libraries. Folks might have a different perspective if they could sell their wares for Montage.
First, anyone call sell their libraries in Motif/Montage format. No a big deal, convert and program them, then sell them. The 1.75 GB limit is an issue because even if you got a somewhat compromised library to fit into let's say 500MB, users might be put off to use up nearly 1/3 of their available space for a single library. On the Kronos, with large SSD(s) and small RAM hit, it's not an issue.

Second, I and others have provide FREE large library conversions for creative license/PD samples. Some of these are very high quality. It's not all about selling something.

Third, any Kronos user can use any of the available conversion utilities to bring their own Kontakt and other large software libraries into the Kronos. Or use the builtin SF conversion.

Fourth, not having to worry about sample size frees the user from having to deal with PITA aspects of traditional sampling, e.g. looping, limited # of layers, stretching samples across multiple notes, etc. As an example, let's say I want to re-sample the string section from one of my copy-protected software sample libraries but I don't want to deal with having to find the perfect loop points for each sample. On the Kronos, I could sample each note for, let's say 20 seconds knowing it's for my own use and I will never play a note longer than 20 seconds. I can very quickly and painlessly make a high quality reproduction. When you're not faced with the hard limits of RAM/Flash, you sample without always looking for the least objectionable compromises. You can sample each note, for full duration, with as many velocity layers as makes sense and with as much detail as possible.

Finally, a Kronos user can completely swap out all samples, programs, combis, set lists, basically everything loaded in the machine with a completely different setup in a minute or two. If you have multiple gigs requiring massively different sounds, you can swap it all out. That's the advantage of not having everything locked into ROM or Flash.

When streaming sampling first hit with GigaSampler, it was revolutionary, not evolutionary. It changed sampling forever.

Busch.
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com
dfahrner
Platinum Member
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:17 pm
Location: Bend, OR

Post by dfahrner »

Devnor wrote:...Not everyone wants to drag a heavy, standby UPS to gigs especially those who share the stage with other acts...
I use a CyberPower 350VA UPS, it's about 7"x4"x3", 3 lbs., and fits in the equipment bag easily, about the same as a power block...

df
billysynth1
Platinum Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:09 am
Location: Australia/Melbourne

Post by billysynth1 »

From Yamaha Synth forum...
Welcome to Yamaha Synth! Thanks for the questions.


The FM-X provides the possibility to use non-sinusoidal oscillators: are known waveforms available?
The short answer is, yes. The FM-X engine of the Montage features Spectral Forms which are best heard to appreciate the difference. A Sine wave is the definition of the Fundamental containing no harmonics (overtones). Harmonics are whole integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. In DX-style FM you build increasing complex wave shapes by the interaction of sine waves. When the pitch of one Operator is uses to modify another is your basic FM. When the pitch ratio of one is 1:1 (equal) to the other, you get a result that is all the harmonics. When that ratio is 2:1 Modifier to Carrier, the result is every other (only the odd numbered) harmonic.

All harmonic we identify as a Sawtooth Wave
Every other harmonic we identify as a Square Wave.

FM-X gives an option to select "All" harmonics (sawtooth like), just "Odd" harmonics (square like) and spectral shapes with a resonant peak (emphasis) ... These non-Sine wave sources can be further strengthened via a parameter called the Spectral Skirt which influences the timbre of the resulting non-Sine wave source. You are provided 6 alternate wave sources of differing harmonic content (source waves) - which allows extremely complex waves from any single Operator... And there are 8 Operators per FM-X Part!

An "All" (harmonic) Spectral Form with a Spectral Skirt set to maximum (wide) will give you a Sawtooth Wave.
An "Odd" (harmonic) Spectral Form with a Spectral Skirt set to maximum (wide) will give you a Square Wave
A "Res" (resonant harmonic) Spectral Form provides increasing higher frequency emphasis and a selection of complex synth sound sources.

These Forms in conjunction with the Skirt parameter generate the same type of energy with a single operator as a Feedback loop on itself would (except with a lot more control)... The classic single Feedback Loops found in the 88 algorithms ensure compatibility with legacy DX/TX FM sounds. But building sounds from scratch with FM-X you can start with a complex wave.

Significantly the resulting array of harmonic complexity as a starting point far exceeds the selection of a handful of wave types in your traditional analog synth. And once you start interacting this singular wave source by modifying or allowing it to be modified by another Operator, you begin to see there is truly an infinite range of wave sources per FM-X Part.

We will be posting some basic Fm tutorials - once you master selecting the Wave shapes building sounds (on purpose) becomes very doable in FM programming. In the 1980's FM was seen as difficult. Back then the DX7 introduced menu driven interface. Using a computer was still new, navigating parameters and numbers in a screen was completely New. Now with everything from games to cell phones, navigating an operating system is literally child's play. Add to this the knobs and sliders that help adjust FM levels and settings... This time around FM will be a lot easier. The reputation of being difficult or hard to use will be greatly reduced. Time is always the best teacher. Everyone is very used to navigating and accessing parameters (this was completely foreign for most in 1983)

It used to take two Operators to create a complex wave shape. And we'll cover that relationship - because it reinforces what you know about the harmonic series and how it is generated.

Then we'll dig into starting with more complex waveforms from a single Operator.


It seems that for every operator can also edit the waveform, using a few parameters: it is true?
Very true.


It has confirmed that each FM-x voice has a multi-band filter with its envelope?
First, there are no Voices in the Montage, what you know as a Voice is now one of eight PARTs that can simultaneously be under Keyboard Control, a PART can be AWM2 or it can be built from an 8 Operator FM-X. Each Operator has a source wave, and an Amplitude Envelope Generator which controls its output over time, and each Operator is either a Modulator (influencer) or a Carrier (outputs sound). Once the Operators have interacted to generate a complex output (sound), that sound can run through a Montage Filter (LPF, HPF, BPF, BEF, Dual band Filters, Etc., etc., etc.) Effects can be added, controllers assigned. Filtering, Effects and Controllers are assigned on the PART COMMON level of editing.


last question: for each operator can provide feedback as to reface the DX?
Explained above.. With the "Spectral Form" and "Skirt" parameters you doing what the reface DX does when it feeds back an Operator on itself.

Hope that helps.
billy
Yamaha C1 Grand Piano.
Korg Oasys 88, Jupiter 80
Kronos 88, V Synth GT
I am a student of classical piano...I am not a classical pianist.
Sam CA
Platinum Member
Posts: 3992
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Post by Sam CA »

Isn't this kind of geared towards EDM type of music?
Sam

Image

Image
User avatar
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Posts: 3374
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:52 pm

Post by jimknopf »

If it were seriously aimed at EDM, Yamaha would have had to include
a) some decent VAs (if not analog components as well like Rolands JD-XA)
b) a convinving drum groove machine concept

As the Montage is now, Korg Gadget (40€) with an iPad (add some hundred €), with a dozen of VAs and drum-machines and a working sequencer (including the option to have Module with Pianos, EPs etc. on board additionally at another 40€), does a much better job for creating EDM, than the very expensive Montage will ever do.

The Montage definitely does deliver some goodies, but I recognize no convincing overall concept, and really don't understand at what or at whom it might aim. What kind of user did they have in mind? Even Motif users, while getting some nice new stuff, face huge downgrade disappointments at the same time with the Montage.
Last edited by jimknopf on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Posts: 7860
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:23 am

Post by SanderXpander »

To me it seems kinda like an FM version of the KingKorg. It has the classic DX sounds and a decent attempt at a modern version, a ton of bread and butter sounds and an interface that's mainly geared at quick live edits rather than full editing like knobby analogs or Nords. I guess it's all in the sound. I've never used a workstation sequencer seriously so that's not a part that I miss. But the omission of sampling seems strange to me. Perhaps they're planning to add a custom laptop or iPad app with sampling, to get the benefit of large RAM and disk size? The computer audio integration seems quite good.

EDIT:
Oh actually it seems I misunderstood, there is sampling. Just without the streaming we're now used to it seems very limited.
User avatar
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Posts: 3374
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:52 pm

Post by jimknopf »

But isn't the Kingkorg a completely other animal?
It is 90% VA, with vocoder and some VERY basic additional sample sounds on board.

The Montage, on the other hand, is rather one of the advanced ROMplers, with lots of bread and butter sounds, and additional FM.

If it's a performance synth, then I ask: for whom?

- certainly not for EDM: the sampled synth sounds in it are much too flat and smooth and without any character, as far as the demos go. Without proper VAs this just doesn't work, so how should it provide sounds for EDM???

- but the classical band performers have a problem as well: without proper sampling, and with quite a low amount of free sample space available anyways, and no upgrade possibility at all, how should gigging musicians get into that synth whatever they need and want?
And while some of them don't use the sequencer, many others do (not so much for recording, but for playback purposes, which are widespread nowadays). Add missing organ clone and missing VAs. Should they be happy to have FM instead?

Wrong and unclear priorities all over the place IMHO. Why should anybody pay nearly a Kronos price and carry 29kg (88 version: with a bad form factor, especcially depth, which makes it close to impossible to carry it by one person alone), just to have that?
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
marc1
Full Member
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:31 pm

Post by marc1 »

+1 The Montage is a huge letdown. Sounds too much like planned obsolescence to me, but of course all the die hard Motif users and yammy apologists will find a way to justify such an unnecessary investment.
User avatar
afr
Senior Member
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:15 am

Post by afr »

marc1 wrote:+1 The Montage is a huge letdown. Sounds too much like planned obsolescence to me, but of course all the die hard Motif users and yammy apologists will find a way to justify such an unnecessary investment.
I couldn't find better words
User avatar
Sharp
Site Admin
Posts: 18221
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 12:29 am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Post by Sharp »

Yamaha may as well simply called this the Motif XXF.

Anyone with money burning a hole in their pocket would be better of buying an Integra 7 to add to their KRONOS.

Regards
Sharp.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="530"> <tr> <td rowspan="1" colspan="1" width="267" height="94"> <a href="https://shop.korg.com/kronossoundlibraries"><img name="Image110" src="http://www.irishacts.com/images/Image11_1x1.png" width="267" height="94" border="0" alt="KORG Store - Irish Acts"></a></td> <td rowspan="1" colspan="1" width="263" height="94"> <a href="http://www.irishacts.com"><img name="Image111" src="http://www.irishacts.com/images/Image11_1x2.png" width="263" height="94" border="0" alt="Irish Acts Online Store"></a></td> </tr> </table>
Jan1
Platinum Member
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:03 pm

Post by Jan1 »

Well, that was NAMM, on to Musikmesse which is only 10 weeks away for all those other shiny toys which we didn't see at NAMM. :D
One other synth which really impressed me with its sound is the OB-6, a big sound, unfortunately also with a big price tag (almost $3000).
spaceman3
Platinum Member
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:09 am

Post by spaceman3 »

spaceman3
Platinum Member
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:09 am

Post by spaceman3 »

https://youtu.be/23bqJfgqD_k
This is the development video for MONTAGE.
They actually talk about the physical shape of MONTAGE making the user more creative.
Cmon, give me a break.
I have mixed feelings about this synth.
On one hand ,YAMAHA still makes great bread and butter instrument sounds (samples).
But on the other hand, Montage just doesnt seem to offer anything really new and exciting.
$3000 for the 6 model?
No way.



Sorry about the double post :oops:
Bachus
Platinum Member
Posts: 3127
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:59 am

Post by Bachus »

Sharp wrote:Yamaha may as well simply called this the Motif XXF.

Anyone with money burning a hole in their pocket would be better of buying an Integra 7 to add to their KRONOS.

Regards
Sharp.
I dont XXF, fits the bill, as they removed half of the functionallity from the XF and added the Motion sequencer and the FM (and some other stuff)

Motif XFM would have been a great name..

And you are better of adding a Tyros 5 to your Kronos then a Montage (and you could allwasy add the integra 7 to that)
User avatar
apex
Platinum Member
Posts: 2340
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:22 am
Contact:

Post by apex »

Bachus wrote:
afr wrote:my personal feeling

Montage = Motif xf + new piano sample + FM section
Partly right..
But it will be much much more...
If you look at what Yamaha did with other instruments since the release of the Motif XS/Xf...
If you have read the inside information on http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ ...
If you have seen what Steinberg did with Hallion 5...
If you know how Yamaha opperates...

then you will know what to expect....

- AWM technollogy will make a huge step (Halion modularrity) into combining sampling with all kinds of virtuall technollogies (VL, AN, CS, YC, FM, SCM, AEM, VRM, etc etc) that make it a true modular engine...

- Hardware will get an update, not to the level of Kronos, but it will make a huge step...

- The Montage will be fully audio capable, not just playing audio, but realtime manupilation of audio to...

- but also you can expect many things that Kontakt (NI) VST can do, like ensemble and orchestral to be inside...

- New drum engine...

- huge improvement of the number of voices and effects...

- Full integration with Cubase 8.5, even more then now, expect to see functionallity comparable to NI komplete and Akai VIP...

- touchscreen OS...

- it will be a full fnctioning Audio interface for any PC or laptop...


It took them long enough, but they will finally make an instrument on level with the Kronos, but much more userfriendly to opperate (this is where they make the biggest step)...

Will it feel alien?
Probably only to Motif users, that havent used anything else in the past decade or so...
Bachus, are you saying the MONTAGE IS all these things (we just don't know it yet because the details are still very few).... or are you saying eventually, MONTAGE will become these things?
Please subscribe and follow me on Youtube and Facebook for information related audio technology.

YouTube -
https://www.youtube.com/juliusdeberryjr

Facebook -
https://www.facebook.com/majesticstudiosllc

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/majesticstudios_jld/
Post Reply

Return to “Latest News”