Live Players: What do you use to monitor your keys?

[PinkFloydDudi]

danmusician,
The advantage with the IEMs is that you keep them really turned down, as on stage sound doesn't get through the moulding.

Even more so if you get your ears injection-moulded anyway, as it totally blanks out the surrounding noise.

Dan

Think the point is that due to the closeness, dan is saying the audiologist told him no volume is safe pretty much.

If audiologists had their way, everything we do in life would be a whisper. They likely wouldn't recommend playing in any type of band! I think between the 2 (IEM's vs monitors) - I THINK the audiologist would recommend the IEMs. Stage volume can get very loud. IEMs give you the control...not your excessively loud guitar player!

[danmusician]

danmusician,
The advantage with the IEMs is that you keep them really turned down, as on stage sound doesn't get through the moulding.

Even more so if you get your ears injection-moulded anyway, as it totally blanks out the surrounding noise.

Dan

Think the point is that due to the closeness, dan is saying the audiologist told him no volume is safe pretty much.

If audiologists had their way, everything we do in life would be a whisper. They likely wouldn't recommend playing in any type of band! I think between the 2 (IEM's vs monitors) - I THINK the audiologist would recommend the IEMs. Stage volume can get very loud. IEMs give you the control...not your excessively loud guitar player!

Actually, I think the audiologist was saying that louder sound from outside the ear was safer than softer sound inside the ear. (Obviously, we're talking about the perception of volume not actual db level.)

This guy seemed pretty cool about the needs of the music biz. He was running a clinic for musician educators and understood the needs of performance. Remember, at that time there were no IEMs (that I know of) and most people were still using outside-the-ear headphones. I'd love to meet him again and get his take IEMs.

Keep in mind, in terms of hearing damage length of exposure also plays a role. The louder the sound, the shorter the exposure should be. But just because you're listening to a somewhat softer volume doesn't mean your safe to play for hours at a time...

[jeremykeys]

I use an ancient Yorkville sound powered mixer that I bought when I was 18 plus 2 huge cabinets from the same era. Each has a 15 inch Eminance plus a one inch horn. Just FYI I'm 56 now so I've decided to upgrade. My biggest problem has been that the rig kicks serious ass and works amazingly well. The 2 cabinets are Yorkville BW-200's. Before I bought this rig I had a small amp and once ran up against a guitar play with a Marshall stack. I vowed never to let that happen again. Couldn't hear a note I played. 520 watts of old school power. Unfortunately it also weighs a ton so I"m in the process of putting together a pair of wedges that will act as monitors and also fill the room. My cabinets right now are using Eminance Lab 12's for bass and at the moment still undecided as for what I want fo mid and highs. The Lab 12 goes down to 26Hz but in my box it will be about 37Hz. This also gives it a nice rise at about 50Hz to 90Hz. After that it's ruler flat to 500 Hz. I'm working with Larry Gallant who is a genius speaker designer. I'll be upgrading to some kind of digital amp and mixer when I can afford it.

[jeremykeys]

Oopsy! Having just re-read my post I realized that I meant to to say that my biggest problem was dealing with very loud other musicians. Not having a loud rig for myself. Now it's the weight that bothers me. Gettin' old ya know!
I've noticed that a lot people are using the in ear monitors. Makes a lot of sense to me but how do you deal with all the different stages that you play on? Not all of them have monitor feeds or even have drum mics. My band doesn't own a P.A. I have a small powered mixer and we can rent small cabinets but it only has one monitor send and it's in mono. I guess that would do in a pinch but I have to admit that I love playing really freakin' loud! I usually wear ear-plugs but without speakers I would certainly miss the feel. There really is something to the buzz of 2 15 inch woofers kicking you. Makes you feel alive! Plus it's very easy to pretend you're a star!! Just kidding!

[PinkFloydDudi]

Oopsy! Having just re-read my post I realized that I meant to to say that my biggest problem was dealing with very loud other musicians. Not having a loud rig for myself. Now it's the weight that bothers me. Gettin' old ya know!
I've noticed that a lot people are using the in ear monitors. Makes a lot of sense to me but how do you deal with all the different stages that you play on? Not all of them have monitor feeds or even have drum mics. My band doesn't own a P.A. I have a small powered mixer and we can rent small cabinets but it only has one monitor send and it's in mono. I guess that would do in a pinch but I have to admit that I love playing really freakin' loud! I usually wear ear-plugs but without speakers I would certainly miss the feel. There really is something to the buzz of 2 15 inch woofers kicking you. Makes you feel alive! Plus it's very easy to pretend you're a star!! Just kidding!

So you use big speakers and then put earplugs in? =P

You are correct in that there are some limitations with in-ears, especially with smaller setups. Figured I will tell you how I deal with each of the issues you mentioned.

I guess to sum it up - I have a question back to you - if there are no drum mics, and only 1 monitor send - how do you currently hear the rest of the band? The answer on how to do it with in-ears is pretty much the same. Keep in mind, you don't always have to have both earbuds in!
I'd say about 85% of the time, I have one of the earbuds out. This allows me to better hear the drums (even when they are mic'd), as well as other stage noise, crowd, etc...I'm actually not a fan of having both earbuds in unless stage volume is extremely loud (which luckily with our band, doesn't happen).

That is part of the reason I love in-ears with a personal digital mixer...Unlike with wedges (where you rely on the sound guy), with an in-ear/mixer setup you can pretty much deal with any situation that is presented to you.
If you get a feed from the FOH for monitors, great. If not, oh well! The versatility of in-ears is a huge bonus.

[SanderXpander]

Having only one ear insulated against heavy noise is actually worse than having neither ear insulated, because the ears natural dampening mechanism doesn't kick in.

[JPROBERTLA]

Mackie CFX16, ART Pro VLA, BBE 482i, Groove Tubes Spacestation SFX MK2, Carver PM300 and (2) EV S40 monitors.

[jeremykeys]

yeah. Silly as it sounds I do use big speakers and then put ear plugs in. My guitar player uses a 100 watt amp with 4 12s and usually ends up with it wound right out. Everything on 10! Plus he tends to for some reason point the cabinet right at me so the only way I stand a chance is to crank up my rig. He tends to move his amp around during rehearsals for some unknown reason until it ends up killing me. I'm working on this. He's a genius but he's nuts. The rest of the band is trying to get him under control but he's been this way forever.

[michelkeijzers]

yeah. Silly as it sounds I do use big speakers and then put ear plugs in. My guitar player uses a 100 watt amp with 4 12s and usually ends up with it wound right out. Everything on 10! Plus he tends to for some reason point the cabinet right at me so the only way I stand a chance is to crank up my rig. He tends to move his amp around during rehearsals for some unknown reason until it ends up killing me. I'm working on this. He's a genius but he's nuts. The rest of the band is trying to get him under control but he's been this way forever.

It is true that a guitar speaker sounds best at higher volumes. However, I insist on (one of the guitar players of our bands) to turn his speaker, only 10-20 degrees matters a lot. ... and if your guitarist doesn't listen, then use the Kronos for guitar parts, most guitarists don't like guitar sounds from a synth (well neither do most people, but that's not the issue here).

[jeremykeys]

It's not so much that he doesn't listen, he just is in his own world and it's his band. I'm also going to be playing guitar but I'm using a multi effects pedal with amp simulations in it. I intend on running it through my keyboard amp rig and using a D.I. to get to the P.A. when it;s necessary. The problem really boils down to the fact that he doesn't have an overdrive pedal. He doesn't have a real job and relies on gigging to survive and since a lot of his other gigs are fairly quiet acoustic gigs he never runs into the need for massive gain and sustain. He needs a real job! I will be using the Kronos for "guitar" parts but I'm going to be doing it similarly to the way Jordan Rudess does it. Big fat nasty synth sounds!

[SanderXpander]

You probably don't mean it that way, but if you think about it, saying that a professional musician needs "a real job" is hugely offensive. The fact that such a statement would slip out of your mouth without you even realizing how bad it is says something really sad about our culture.

[jeremykeys]

Sorry to offend you . Wasn't my intention but unfortunately these days here in Toronto if you can get $75 for a night you're doing good. My friend doesn't gig every night and has to depend on his girlfriend to help pay the bills. It actually amazes me that someone who has practiced and studies fro years to hone their craft can only make that paltry wage. A musician often studies as long and hard as a doctor. It's sad.
My point that he needs a real job is that the rest of the band sometimes has to chip in to pay for the rehearsed space. I don't mind doing this at all but since he is 55 years old he should be able to always cover his end. I'm a year older and am well aware of my impending mortality and that I need to be able to take care of myself once I am forced to retire. I like working.
It is indeed a statement about society when an artist is forced to live at a barely survivable rate as opposed to a decent living. Especially when one is talented and has been trying to succeed for most of his life. I've been pretty much doing the same thing but I like to keep a roof over my head and not have to depend on the charity of others.
Please take this in the spirit it's intended. I've also starved for my art but it quickly lost it's luster and the dream' although slightly faded is still there. I just prefer to live a bit more comfortably now. Thanks!

[michelkeijzers]

Gigging here is not easy too ... I have a non-music job so for me it's mainly hobby but we don't want to spoil the market. However, we mostly play for about 300-700 euro for an evening with the band and after paying the PA (we hire depending on the location), we have about 25-75 euro per person (7 person band). On the other hand, lately it even has become harder and lots of (small) bars will not pay more than 300 (including PA).

You can earn more if you are in a party or wedding kind of band but I have some musical 'areas' I don't want to be part of.

[SanderXpander]

I have no issue with hobby musicians, music is a wonderful thing and I'm only glad when people enjoy it with me. I'm not too worried about them "ruining the market" either, because generally a professional musician's skill will set him apart. Not just in the level of performance but also his flexibility and required preparation time.

I think we're mostly on the same page. I just object strongly to the idea that "musician" is not a real profession and that one needs to have "a real job" to make ends meet. This is true only if you are a bad musician or a very anti-social or disorganized person. At least 80 percent of my income comes from gigging and while my gross wage isn't yet the national average, my net wage is well above it (having to do with being self employed and certain tax advantages). And I'm not anything special, some of my colleagues do way better than me. I also own my home, together with my girlfriend.

And yet every two months or so someone at a gig will ask me "what I do for a living"...

[michelkeijzers]

I have no issue with hobby musicians, music is a wonderful thing and I'm only glad when people enjoy it with me. I'm not too worried about them "ruining the market" either, because generally a professional musician's skill will set him apart. Not just in the level of performance but also his flexibility and required preparation time.

I think we're mostly on the same page. I just object strongly to the idea that "musician" is not a real profession and that one needs to have "a real job" to make ends meet. This is true only if you are a bad musician or a very anti-social or disorganized person. At least 80 percent of my income comes from gigging and while my gross wage isn't yet the national average, my net wage is well above it (having to do with being self employed and certain tax advantages). And I'm not anything special, some of my colleagues do way better than me. I also own my home, together with my girlfriend.

And yet every two months or so someone at a gig will ask me "what I do for a living"...

If you earn 80% of your wage from gigging, that's quite exceptional. I know quite some musicians but they all have a nonmusic job.

I agree with you that if someone wants to be a musician, he should stand out. Meaning that if one can earn a living with music it's ok, but if you can't you have to find another (part time) job.

I consider myself not such a good musician I would like it to be my profession (or at least not with the kind of music I like too make). In our band one has studied music (conservatorium) and one is professional guitar teacher, and I come along quite well (altough I sometimes need a bit more preparation time for songs).

On the other hand, if it is your profession, you probably have to make 'commercial' choices, in both time spend to it, flexibility to gigs, working times and also the kind of music. For a hobby, you can (more or less) make your own (or band) choices, where commercial reasons count a lot less. I.e. being a one man band earns much more than with e.g. 7 people.