PA3X - Editor requests for Korg Italy's consideration

miden · Post by **miden** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:09 pm

Rob Sherratt wrote:
NativeAngels wrote:Not being a Pa3x owner but a PA50sd owner. I think an editor needs to me made accross the board for all arrangers with full midi to style converters.
Sorry but my offer is for the Pa3x only. There are differences and limitations in the earlier Sound and Style file formats, and also differences in memory capability on the other keyboards. The real issue is this. If I was to extend the software to work across the whole range of Pa keyboards, then I would need one of each model for testing purposes. I could not afford to buy these.

If enterprising owners of the other Pa keyboards wish to club together and buy me a keyboard then I would extend my offer and do the necessary work free of charge.

... over to you?

I disagree, all of this is just the sysex data-base to control the keyboard and create edits working with whatever existing sample base is available.

The OS is essentially the same at its core as the original PA1x - so ergo IF Korg provide the sysex ( which they won't btw- They won't even provide it to Stephen Kay who has a far longer and deeper association with Korg than even you

) a working editor can be created fro even a PA1

Bottom line is what we are talking about here is a PC editor to enable the CONTROL of all aspects of the OS. If a smart programmer got into this I imagine they would create a core app for the basic OS and then also develop modules to allow for later hardware and/or software developments.

I would have assumed you already have the gear to get a basic editor (as I recall you already own the PA588, and the PA2xPro) up an running.

And to be blunt, I must say I found your last paragraph about trying to get some free gear in exchange for smoke and mirrors to be a little distasteful to be honest.

Others may think differently - but all of sudden, out of the blue you re-appear on the forum promising this and that but only if others get together and buy you the gear!!! When really, you should be making that offer to Korg, an in private as well...

That is just bad form in my book, sorry

Dennis

miden · Post by **miden** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:17 pm

Lika wrote:
miden wrote:And of course Korg would need to be convinced this data would not be used for your iPad arranger project or the other "little projects" you have running over there in Corfu

D
I would like to have arranger on my iPad

They are coming I reckon - I have no idea if anyone is doing anything, but it stands to reason it will happen.

All it would take is one of the existing software arranger programmers to team up with an iOS programmer to create a cut-down basic version....it is after all ONLY midi data we are talking about....

DEnnis

deanspy · Post by **deanspy** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:18 pm

Back at you Rob - I sincerely hope they will take you up the offer. All that can happen is to make the 3X even more successful. So glad to have one.

Happy to beta whatever you come up with!!

I would think they would want it - did they not give all this kind of information to the guy that did pcg tools for the kronos?

Cheers
Dean

Asena · Post by **Asena** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:23 pm

HELLO ROB, Nice to heave you Back on here,
How is CORFU? I Miss it a lot,

About the Program for the 3X, I was always talking about this here, But no one listened , and there was no reaction from KORG, so, I really hope this time they will be some one From KORG that can hadle this better and forward it to the persons behind the scene.

i would love it anyway

miden · Post by **miden** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:04 am

deanspy wrote:Back at you Rob - I sincerely hope they will take you up the offer. All that can happen is to make the 3X even more successful. So glad to have one.

Happy to beta whatever you come up with!!

I would think they would want it - did they not give all this kind of information to the guy that did pcg tools for the kronos?

Cheers
Dean

Nope - two different corporations. Korg Italy and Korg USA are un-related.

All this sysex data has to come from Korg Italy who will not release it. And they have been asked for nearly ten years now that I can recall.

As I wrote earlier they (Korg It) will not even release it to Stephen Kay (Korg Karma) so he could develop a Karma module for the PA series...

The data for the Kronos comes from Korg USA.

miden · Post by **miden** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:06 am

Asena wrote:HELLO ROB, Nice to heave you Back on here,
How is CORFU? I Miss it a lot,

About the Program for the 3X, I was always talking about this here, But no one listened , and there was no reaction from KORG, so, I really hope this time they will be some one From KORG that can hadle this better and forward it to the persons behind the scene.

i would love it anyway

Asena I have been broaching this subject with Korg ever since the PA1x!!!

Both privately and on the forum!! I did start this thread

Dennis

Lika · Post by **Lika** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:18 am

miden wrote:They are coming I reckon - I have no idea if anyone is doing anything, but it stands to reason it will happen.

All it would take is one of the existing software arranger programmers to team up with an iOS programmer to create a cut-down basic version....it is after all ONLY midi data we are talking about....

I will be a happiest man if this be be happen !!!

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:50 am

I received private communication from Korg yesterday to thank me for my offer. It is currently being discussed with the head of software development in Korg Italy, and the offer is being taken seriously. One of the conditions I made when I contacted Korg directly was that I would be at liberty to interact with members of the forum during the development, so here goes ...

Here is what I believe to be the objectives for delivery in the first software release.

Korg Pa Series Librarian / Editor v1

Proposed Scope (for discussion)

The v1 delivery will be a Performance, Style, Sound and MultiSample librarian running on a PC equipped with Windows 7 or Windows 8. The librarian will accept an unlimited number of Performance, Sound, Style and MultiSample files, it will display all files with full information on the contents including dependencies of Styles and Performances on Factory and User Sounds. The import will be done using .SET files containing Sounds, Styles Performances and User MultiSamples Any other data in a .SET file such as Global settings will be ignored.

The Editor/ Librarian will require no software changes to Korg's Pa-series OS. It will make use of current capabilities only.

The imported .SET files may originate from any supported Pa series keyboard. There will be no capability to import or manage commercially protected files that require USB keys e.g. from Anthony Sharman, ENO etc.

The Librarian will be tested against the Pa2x initially and as soon as I get a Pa3x, it will be tested against that as well. Both the Pa2x and the Pa3x will be fully supported by me, and it is likely that the software will be compatible with the Pa800 as well, but I will not be able to test it.

When Style and Performance Files are displayed by the Librarian, if there are dependencies on User Sounds the user will be prompted for the "name" of the User Sounds that the Style was designed to use. The designer of the Style or Performance can normally provide this information, but it is not stored in the Performance Style File itself. This data will be captured by the Librarian and if the "named" User Sound is present anywhere in the Library, the Librarian software will construct a dependency linkage.

The user will be able to "pick and choose" from any number of Sounds and Styles in the Library, and construct any number of "Configurations" which correspond to a .SET file for import into the Pa3x or Pa2x.

Each "Configuration" will allow the user to specify exactly which User programmable buttons are to correspond to each Sound and to each Style. The Librarian will NOT allow the user to reconfigure factory Sound or Style locations. It will allow the User to import Factory Sounds and Styles and thereafter treat these as User Sounds and Styles for inclusion in a "Configuration" for assignment to User programmable buttons.

The "Editing" facilities within the Librarian will permit the user to see each Sound (by name) that is currently configured for a particular Style or Performance. The user may change any of these Sound assignments within the Editor. The User Sounds may use User MultiSamples, and if so, the Librarian will check that those MultiSamples are present and will load them into a "Configuration" as required.

There will be no capability within the Editor / Librarian to "redesign" Sounds or change the assignment of MultiSamples. That can be done on the Pa-series keyboard prior to generating a .SET file for import to the Librarian/ Editor.

Each "Configuration" will be checked by the Librarian/ Editor to ensure it is compatible with the target Pa-series keyboard, and a compatibility setting will be auto-generated and displayed e.g. Pa3x, Pa2x, Pa800 etc. There are different memory storage constraints for each machine.

When the user decides to load a "Configuration" onto the Pa-series keyboard, a .SET file for that specific keyboard will be created containing Sounds, Styles and Performances. There will not be any capability to modify Global settings. The ".SET" file name that is automatically generated will include the target Pa series keyboard name.

The configured .SET file will be loaded onto the Pa-series keyboard using the normal mechanism, via a USB stick.

Excluded from Scope (not for discussion)

I will NOT be doing the following:

Software Arranger / Sequencer (use your Pa keyboard for that).
Export or import of Sounds and Styles from other manufacturers.
Sample editing to make MultiSamples (use e.g. AWave Studio for that).
Sound editing and previewing (use your Pa keyboard for that).
A Pa series "plug in" for your favourite DAW software.

I do not argue that all those things might be highly desirable, but this is not a priority for me at the moment. Also some of those things (e.g. a DAW plug-in) would require significant development effort from Korg and a new release of Pa-series software, and this is not something I am requesting from Korg.

Best regards,
Rob

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:06 am

As far as I know, the OS on Pa-Series keyboards does not have the capability of generating and receiving the sort of proprietary Sys-Ex messages that would be needed to support an external Sound Editor. There is no documentation on this, i.e. because it does not exist.

The M3 and Kronos were both designed from the outset to support an external Editor and DAW plug-in, and so an advanced Sys-Ex message system was designed into the OS for those keyboards. It is fully documented in the user manuals for those keyboards. This Sys-Ex capability is used e.g. by Stephen Kay in his PC and MAC based Karma software.

Regards,
Rob

Veren · Post by **Veren** » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:21 am

At least Korg is considering third party support for the Pa series which gives reassurance that it is not only about the profits but also client/users happiness/satisfaction/concerns.

Thank you Rob and greatly appreciated

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:57 pm

The Korg Pa3x-76 was definitely a contender for me back in Jan/Feb, but I am put off because of lack of support for sounds and styles expansion and no external software interface. This has been a burning issue for me ever since the days of owning first a Pa1x, and then a Pa2x.

For eight years I have been trying to influence Korg about these deficiencies, to no avail. Both the Roland BK-9 and Yamaha PSR-S960 are well supported by the manufacturers. There are external software interfaces, lots of low-cost sound and style expansion packs, easy to manage these etc.

By comparison with Roland and Yamaha, Korg's crummy "software" and "expansion" support for the Pa3x and the whole Pa series sucks. Sorry if I upset anyone by saying it so bluntly. I had hoped to help Korg remedy that deficiency by writing a sound and style manager at no charge, but the developers in Italy are evidently unwilling or unable to provide the necessary technical details of file formats and compression.

Paolo Tramannoni did respond in private to me back in January, but he has no influence in the matter of getting the necessary technical details to me. The development team at Korg Italy just ignored my offer letter and never replied. Even if they replied now, it is too late, because my time and the window of opportunity to do the work is no longer available.

So in case there is any doubt about this, my earlier offer of assistance to create a sound and style editor for the Pa-series is withdrawn.

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:32 am

miden wrote:And they have been asked for nearly ten years now that I can recall.

As I wrote earlier they (Korg It) will not even release it to Stephen Kay (Korg Karma) so he could develop a Karma module for the PA series...

The data for the Kronos comes from Korg USA.

They don't do it themselves and they don't let anybody else do it either. No body wins because of that weird policy. Every body loses

tajna92 · Post by **tajna92** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:39 pm

They (KORG) probably think that there is EMC librarian and style editor for this purpose, but, in my opinion EMC is crap...

We need proper PC tool for Pa3x editing, something that looks like Sonar or Cubase when editing style data.
as for sound/performance editing, Korg can work out the interface lay out...

It is really unbelievable that there is not proper PC KORG editor available as almost any digital device lately comes with one, and here, we are talking about freaking way too expensive instrument.
Not sure for other people, but, I constantly go trough hundreds of samples and styles etc. that it started giving me a headache. After some time it kills my mood and I just turn the kb off.
We are ment to play damn keyboard, not to spend hours on complicated on board editing modules.

I'd rather have proper editor for my pa3x than damn TC Helicon vocalist.

hotkey · Post by **hotkey** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:56 pm

hello,

may be simplest and most effective solution - the same screen shots on the computer as on the arranger and access to all functions with the mouse,
scrolling and confirming (something similar as VPN access).

And what do you think about mouse or pad controlling the keyboard directly?
Did somebody try?

Regards,

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:08 pm

hotkey wrote:hello,

may be simplest and most effective solution - the same screen shots on the computer as on the arranger and access to all functions with the mouse,
scrolling and confirming (something similar as VPN access).

And what do you think about mouse or pad controlling the keyboard directly?
Did somebody try?

Regards,

How is that going to help with sample/sound/style management and transfer from SET to SET?

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PA3X - Editor requests for Korg Italy's consideration

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