MIDI Implementation part in parameter guide not readable.

[djru5h]

Not sure why you need the MSB/LSB.

Look in the MIDI Implementation chart and notice there is a table at the end for parameter changes.. Not to be confused with the actual CC message chart located closer to the beginning of the document (Table 1 - Program Parameters) .. The item(s) from the document that I see useful for interpreting the data is section 3-12 (13) 'Parameter Change' and Section 4 [Table 1]. The list of changeable parameters in table 1 far exceeds the CC list at the beginning of the document in both details and sheer amount of editable content. The parameters that I would like to be able to change on the fly via BCR2000 are located in Table 1 - Parameter Change

[ProfPlat]

Does the BCR2000 output sysex or CC messages?

You will only use the parameter table if the BCR2000 uses sysex (which I don't think it does).

However you can use CC messages to change parameters using Alternate Modulation see Trinity Parameter guide appendix 8 for starters.

[djru5h]

Does the BCR2000 output sysex or CC messages?

You will only use the parameter table if the BCR2000 uses sysex (which I don't think it does).

However you can use CC messages to change parameters using Alternate Modulation see Trinity Parameter guide appendix 8 for starters.

Hmmm i didnt get a notification of your post here.. The BCR2000 does indeed use sysex messages as well as CC.. there is a utility called BC Manager that allows users to intuitively program the BCR2000 encoders. I am still stuck here.. I did manage to get Trinitro to work and made a few edits but its just not the same as turning a knob in real time. here is the midi string i came up with after using the format listed in the midi implementation chart for the tr-rack:

(formula) [ F0,42,3g,3B,41,0m,pp,00,qq,00,vv,ww,F7 ]
(result) F0 42 31 3B 41 02 06 00 01 00 00 63 F7

i did that a couple weeks ago and don't really recall how i came up with the figures for vv and ww (MSB bit and LSB bit). Thats why i said im still at the same point in the process. I know it is possible im just having an issue with the math i guess..not to mention this is the very first instrument i have had in all my 20 years of playing that i decided to do any extensive type of midi changes, dumps etc..i never had a need for this side of the technology in the past but now that i do its like im learning an ancient forgotten language since the resources to help me out are VERY limited.. ProfPlat you and a few others on the net have helped me a great deal and i am very thankful. Hopefully I will be able to get this rig running the way i envisioned it. Im at a point now where i am willing to pay someone to "tutor" me to get this thing to do what i need it to do.. thanks again

[ProfPlat]

If you let me know what parameter you want to change (let us just do 1 to keep things simple at this stage) I will get MQ 10 to change it, record the output and then post it here. This will give us the MSB and LSB. The only difficult parameters (to calc the MSB/LSB) will be the ones that go from -99 to 99, others that run from 0 up to 127 will only use one byte.

Regards

Prof Plat

[djru5h]

ok! lets try this then:



Instead of 'START LEVEL' as highlighted, how about 'ATTACK TIME'?? Not sure if i mentioned it earlier but I have NO idea where the 'VALUE DATA' for the highlighted chart is derived.

I noticed you are using MQ10.. I have yet to get my MQ11 to work properly.. i managed to get Sound Diver 3.05 to work today though. Pretty nifty tool minus the vsti feature that MQ has but it does the job. Now if i could only get this midi implementation totally under my control LOlz..Thanks again for helping me grab the horns on this bull of a synth call the Korg TR-Rack!

[ProfPlat]

Am at work at the moment. Will have a look tonight. As you have probably seen from my previous posts, the MQ editor is just not thoroughly checked when made. For instance, for a patch, you can change it between a single, double or drum. The code behind this parameter is wrong, a simple tweak and all is sorted, the program displays it on screen correctly, but basically you cannot change it (if you were to reload the patch after the change it would not have changed to your new setting). Another big one - the insert effects is missing a MQ internal macro - amazed that this is like this. From MQ point of view, if they don't have a TR-Rack or a trinity keyboard plugged in, then checking it is almost impossible, as the manufacturer's documentation has errors as well. Hopefully at the end of this will have an MQ editor that works - I assume it will work in version 11 and happy to let you have it!

[djru5h]

well I'll tell you what... From what I understand, MQ is inferior to SoundDiver as it pertains to its editing capabilities. If you'd like I will forward you my working copy of Sound Diver 3.05 so you can poke around with it..The only feature MQ has that SD doesn't is vsti but I'm ok with that.. Sound Diver edits can all be done in real time .. I am using the windows version.

[ProfPlat]

Ok here we go. I have done both (forgive the cut and paste, imagine a tab between the value and F0:

Value Start Level
99 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 00 63 F7
98 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 00 62 F7
60 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 00 3C F7
2 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 00 02 F7
1 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 00 01 F7
0 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 00 00 F7
-1 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 7F 7F F7
-2 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 7F 7E F7
-60 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 7F 44 F7
-98 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 7F 1E F7
-99 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 00 7F 1D F7

Value Attack Time
99 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 01 00 63 F7
98 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 01 00 62 F7
60 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 01 00 3C F7
2 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 01 00 02 F7
1 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 01 00 01 F7
0 F0 42 30 3B 41 03 00 06 00 01 00 00 F7

As you can see the 0-99 is straight forward and does not use the MSB.

Out of the box MQ loses hands down, but as a program for making your own connections/customizations to your synths it just requires a degree in MQ programming and time and there is nothing it can't do!!!

When moving combinations into different banks, it brings the patches with it and renumbers them automatically.

I just wish MQ made it open source from the beginning - and let punters add/correct things - wow would that have been good!

Hope this helps

[djru5h]

thanks for the info! so last night i did what you suggested i do in MQ only i did it in Sound Diver instead and came up with a very similar result. SD labelled the LSB Lo7 and the MSB Hi7... the strings are the same though. so that just leads me to another problem since my bcr2000 STILL wont output the parameter change I want it to perform. I am starting to think it is an issue with my DAW (Presonus Studio One 2.6.3) that is creating the problem since it is the center of my production. But thats ok since I have now finally gotten a program that will allow me to visually edit my rack in real time.. It literally does everything MQ can do from what I can tell except run as a vst but thats no big issue since it CAN run in the background and perform edits alongside my DAW.. and thats a HUGE breakthrough for me!!

As far as MQ11... I can get my TR-Rack to dump the entire set but once i save it thats it.. once i try to open the set again it just hangs at an initializing screen.. I have verified that it can perform edits etc.. i just cant save a file and reopen it later.. and that really sucks because I like the user interface of MQ11 over Sound Diver... Oh well, as long as I can design my sounds comfortably I'm good.. Thanks so much for your help and input!

[ProfPlat]

I have MQ on a really old separate PC (Pentium 3, 256 RAM 497 MHz XP (upgrade from W98!!) and no antivirus as that kills the PC!) and run it stand alone ( I have just checked dates and the PC is 15 years old to the day!).

I have had probs with other MQ editors, but this one was asking for the right amount of bytes and receiving them all. I have had to change some of the default send/transmit settings (preferences/midi in MQ). MQ and the TR-Rack are 'old' bits of kit and new PCs try and send messages too fast for them. Try changing some of the numbers (the help button gives some pointers)

Glad you can see where you are going. I always remove everything in the chain and keep it simple to find the problem. You maybe better off changing a different parameter, as there are so many settings, through effects etc that just changing one can have very little change on the sound. I generally change the sample.

[djru5h]

yes there are TONS of settings that can be mapped.. I'm generally interested in the ones that would have been on most vintage analog rack synths.. the ones ive seen have loads of knobs and /or sliders. but having the ability to at least mouse click on a param and change it in real time is way better than button scrolling through an LCD menu...thats so archaic (and uncivilized LOL).. i like how the changes take effect almost immediately on my rack.. so no im not able to do exactly what i intended but i think i have found myself a happy medium here with Sound Diver.. after all it is the software that came with the original TR-Racks when they first shipped so why not? LOL! Well i'm off to make music now.. I have some catching up to do.. Thanks again and happy songwriting!

[djru5h]

just an update... Now I kinda feel like I've been wasting my time since i seemingly used every method under the sun but FINALLY got my TR-Rack to accept parameter changes from my BCR2000!!! YAAAAAAYYYYYYY!!! All thanks to learn function on Sounddiver.. ProfPlat yourself and a couple of others from different forums have really provided me a wealth of knowledge as well as a crash refresh course in hex.. I almost have the sysex messages from the trinity memorized now and I am about 1/3 way through programming the 100+ editable parameters.. Now I can take my time and not feel unproductive... Thanks again!!

[Spacecowboy]

i could only paste a small amount, but i have the whole file if you want me to email it to you. this paste is out of order from original pdf i can send you. its many pages long but send through email.

like i say the format you see pasted is not the original format. i had to copy from podf and sent to my writer and i copied it from that and it looks like this only from pasting.

but its a file devoted to the midi implementation only if you need it.



TR-Rack MIDI IMPLEMENTATION
1997.12.25
1.TRANSMITTED DATA
1-1 System Realtime Message
1-2 System Exclusive
1-2-1 Universal System Exclusive Message ( Non Realtime )
1-2-2 KORG System Exclusive
2.RECOGNIZED RECEIVE DATA
2-1 Recognized Receive Messages
2-2 System Exclusive
2-2-1 Universal System Exclusive Message ( Non Realtime )
2-2-2 Universal System Exclusive Messages ( Realtime )
2-2-3 KORG System Exclusive
3.KORG SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE FORMAT
3-1 Structure of TRINITY series System Exclusive Messages
3-2 Each Exclusive message's format
4.TABLES
[ TABLE1 ] Program Parameters ( for Dump, Parameter Change )
[ TABLE2 ] Combination Parameters ( for Dump, Parameter Change )
[ TABLE3 ] Global Parameters ( for Dump )
[ TABLE4 ] Parameter No. at Combination mode ( for Parameter Change )
[ TABLE5 ] Parameter No. at Program mode ( for Parameter Change )
[ TABLE6 ] Drumkit Parameters ( for Dump, Drum Parameter Change )
[ TABLE7 ] Multi Parameters ( for Dump )
1.TRANSMITTED DATA
1-1 SYSTEM REALTIME MESSAGE
+-----------+-----------------------------------------------+
| Status[H]| Description ( Everytime transmitted ) |
+-----------+-----------------------------------------------+
| FE | Active Sensing |
+-----------+-----------------------------------------------+
1-2 SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE
1-2-1 UNIVERSAL SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE MESSAGE ( NON REALTIME )
* DEVICE INQUlRY REPLY ( Transmits when received a INQUIRY MESSAGE REQUEST )
[ F0,7E,0g,06,02,42,3B,00,20,00,nn,00,vv,00,F7 ] 3rd byte g : Global Channel
6th byte 42 : KORG ID
7th byte 3B : TRINITY series ID
9th byte 20 : TR-Rack
( 01: Trinity, 09:Tri plus )
( 12: Tri pro, 1B:Tri proX )
11th byte nn : System No. ( 01.. )
13th byte vv : System Version ( 01.. )
1-2-2 KORG SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE See "3. MIDI SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE FORMAT"
* There are 14 transmit Messages, and their format is as below.
[ F0,42,3g,3B,[Func],[Data]....,F7 ] 3rd byte g : Global Channel
5th byte [Func] : Function Code ( See below Table )
Transmits Message List "Func" : Function Code
+-----+-------------------------------------------+---+---+---+
| Func| Description | R | D | E |
+-----+-------------------------------------------+---+---+---+
| 40 | CURRENT PROGRAM PARAMETER DUMP | o | | |
| 4C | PROGRAM PARAMETER DUMP | o | o | |
| 49 | CURRENT COMBINATION PARAMETER DUMP | o | | |
| 4D | COMBlNATION PARAMETER DUMP | o | o | |
| 48 | MULTI DATA DUMP | o | o | |
| 51 | GLOBAL DATA DUMP | o | o | |
| 52 | DRUMKIT DATA DUMP | o | o | |
| 50 | ALL DATA(GLOBAL,DRUM,COMBl,PROG,MLT) DUMP| o | o | |
| | | | | |
| 42 | MODE DATA | o | | |
| | | | | |
| 26 | RECEIVED MESSAGE FORMAT ERROR | o | | o |
| 23 | DATA LOAD COMPLETED (ACK) | | | o |
| 24 | DATA LOAD ERROR (NAK) | | | o |
| 21 | WRITE COMPLETED | | | o |
| 22 | WRlTE ERROR | | | o |
+-----+-------------------------------------------+---+---+---+
Transmitted when
R : Request Message is received
D : Data dump by SW ( Don't respond to Exclusive ENA,DIS)
E : EX.Message received
Some Request Message is not received in some mode. See 2-2-3.
* When transmits series of EX Messages to TRINITY, please wait for message[DATA LOAD COMPLETED]
or [WRITE COMPLETED] before sending a next message.
2.RECOGNIZED RECEIVE DATA
2-1 RECOGNIZED RECEIVE MESSAGES [H]:Hex, [D]:Decimal
+-------+---------+----------------------+--------------------------------------------------------+-----+ ased on its initial setting.

[ProfPlat]

Thanks to samriccijr for scanning in the sysex text. I have adobe writer and have combined this and the original manual. Can I email it to someone so they can update the sticky for the Trinity Parameter Guide?

[Timo]

Certainly, I'll PM you.