Just recieved my KronosX service manual from parts is parts

[danatkorg]

Personally, I have not heard of a single KRONOS with a "bricked" SSD.

If the SSD did have a catastrophic failure, it would need to be replaced - by an authorized service center, who as part of the replacement would re-calibrate the unit.

So, as far as I can tell this is a non-issue.

Neither I do. But this doesn't solve the question: how can someone tell if the SSD has or not that data when applying the procedure? How can we still asume the SSD will have that data available? How can we apply that without knowing for sure if the information will be restored or not?

Because that's how it works.

So, the point that hasn't been made is that everybody should clone the original disk and save an image because you can't just trust the SSD will have always a reliable copy of that data.

Probably the reason that point hasn't been made is that it's not correct. I can categorically say that you should NOT do this, since doing so would require that you open your KRONOS, presumably voiding your warranty.

But if we don't do, then we have to take the Kronos to the authorized service center to pay money and wait who knows how much as soon as we have to apply format & restore.

Let's think about how many things are necessary before this occurs.

First, you would need to be in a position in which a format and install was necessary.
Outside of our own internal testing, I am not aware of ever having been necessary.

Next, something would need to go wrong with copying the existing calibration data.
I am not aware of this ever having occurred.

So, following those two exceptionally unlikely events in succession, you would call your KORG Distributor. As OASYS users know, some distributors have assisted users in re-calibrating their devices when necessary. (Unlike the KRONOS, the OASYS did not maintain the calibration data.)

Only if for some reason the Korg Distributor was unable to help you would you need to go to a service center.

Really, this is a non-issue in so many different ways.

- How is that every single individual Kronos has unique calibration data? Seems like every single keybed is hand made or something similar...

Most systems with analog parts going through A/Ds (joysticks, ribbons, aftertouch etc.) require calibration, in my experience. That's true for every Korg synth I've worked on.

- Dan

Can't comment further, but I haven't heard of any other workstation I've owned that you may or may not recover the factory settings when applying a full restore.

Originally you seemed to think that there was something strange about having calibration data, and that was what I responded to - as you can see above.

Again, most systems with analog parts going through A/Ds require calibration, in my experience. This is true for every Korg synth I've worked on, and I know various specific stories about calibration for synths from other manufacturers.

Note again:

KRONOS CALIBRATION DATA IS MAINTAINED DURING A FORMAT AND INSTALL.

Now let's check this: if we can download our reauthorization code, how is that we can't download our unique calibration data so the recovery disks will be indeed a reliable recover method?

As far as I can tell, there is no basis whatsoever for claiming that it is not a reliable recovery method.

Reauth codes, like EXs auth codes, are generated. Very different from keeping your calibration data on file.

I hope this settles the matter.

[MarPabl]

But this doesn't solve the question: how can someone tell if the SSD has or not that data when applying the procedure? How can we still asume the SSD will have that data available? How can we apply that without knowing for sure if the information will be restored or not?

Because that's how it works.

Ok show stopper... anyway I've given reasons regarding that way of working may not be the best and many agree considering the threads generated about this.

Let's think about how many things are necessary before this occurs.

First, you would need to be in a position in which a format and install was necessary.
Outside of our own internal testing, I am not aware of ever having been necessary.

Next, something would need to go wrong with copying the existing calibration data.
I am not aware of this ever having occurred.

So, following those two exceptionally unlikely events in succession, you would call your KORG Distributor. As OASYS users know, some distributors have assisted users in re-calibrating their devices when necessary. (Unlike the KRONOS, the OASYS did not maintain the calibration data.)

Only if this for some reason the Korg Distributor was unable to help you would you need to go to a service center.

Really, this is a non-issue in so many different ways.

For sure the possibility for SSD failure can be small. AFAIK the Toshiba SSD is rated 1,000,000 hours reliability. However, in this forum are many threads from guys performing full restore. But nobody knows if they lost or not the calibration data, because there's a confirmed case where a new SSD was initialized and apparently there are no issues. For all of those reasons I think its better to be prepared with a backup

Originally you seemed to think that there was something strange about having calibration data, and that was what I responded to - as you can see above.

Again, most systems with analog parts going through A/Ds require calibration, in my experience. This is true for every Korg synth I've worked on, and I know various specific stories about calibration for synths from other manufacturers.

Note again:

KRONOS CALIBRATION DATA IS MAINTAINED DURING A FORMAT AND INSTALL.

I don't think it's strange having or not calibration data. I think it's strange (to put nicely) not providing a way to backup that information. Specially if the calibration data ends up being a file on a SSD disk.

Now let's check this: if we can download our reauthorization code, how is that we can't download our unique calibration data so the recovery disks will be indeed a reliable recover method?

As far as I can tell, there is no basis whatsoever for claiming that it is not a reliable recovery method.

Reauth codes, like EXs auth codes, are generated. Very different from keeping your calibration data on file.

I hope this settles the matter.

The restore method is not reliable because it will fail if it doesn't find the calibration data. And the worse, it won't let the user know. That's not reliable at all.

Just allowing the full recovery method to also make a search for the calibration data on external media, in case of not being found on SSD, would make another point for reliability. And for sure the file may be signed or hashed to make sure it's valid for the specific board it's being applied to.

It doesn't matter if the reauth codes are generated or not. The point is that we can download a unique file for every single board. The calibration data is also a unique file for every single board. The reason of not making this file available seems like Korg just doesn't feel like taking the effort to generate and store it. Even, that file, as well as the reauthorization data, may be copied/generated inside Kronos for user convenience and backup. Not allowing that doesn't sound nice from a consumer's perspective and again, has raised several concerns.

I think every point has been given by now Personally, I prefer playing safe and taking a backup of my SSD. And I must thank you for letting us know the existence of calibration data. Still, I don't appreciate there is no way to backup that file and use it with the full recovery process just as we can use our reauthorization and authorization codes.

[danatkorg]

Let's think about how many things are necessary before this occurs.

First, you would need to be in a position in which a format and install was necessary.
Outside of our own internal testing, I am not aware of ever having been necessary.

Next, something would need to go wrong with copying the existing calibration data.
I am not aware of this ever having occurred.

So, following those two exceptionally unlikely events in succession, you would call your KORG Distributor. As OASYS users know, some distributors have assisted users in re-calibrating their devices when necessary. (Unlike the KRONOS, the OASYS did not maintain the calibration data.)

Only if this for some reason the Korg Distributor was unable to help you would you need to go to a service center.

Really, this is a non-issue in so many different ways.

For sure the possibility for SSD failure can be small. AFAIK the Toshiba SSD is rated 1,000,000 hours reliability. However, in this forum are many threads from guys performing full restore. But nobody knows if they lost or not the calibration data, because there's a confirmed case where a new SSD was initialized and apparently there are no issues.

1. To my knowledge, format and install has never been necessary for a single KRONOS user unless they installed their own SSD (which is specifically advised against in the manuals, presumably voids warranty etc.). That doesn't mean that someone hasn't decided to take matters into their own hands and do a format/install when it wasn't necessary, of course.

2. If a user HAD needed to do a format and install, using the factory SSD, then their calibration data was copied. Period. There is no uncertainty about this.

3. What happens if the calibration data isn't there? Well, nothing much. Some of the analog controls (ribbon etc.) might either not get all the way to their maximum values, or might reach their max values before the end of the physical range of the control. Or, if the analog parts were very close anyway, you might not notice anything at all.

And the worse, it won't let the user know. That's not reliable at all.

The restore method is reliable because the SSD contains the data, and THERE ARE NO KNOWN CASES OF THE SYSTEM FAILING. That's pretty darn reliable by any measure. If you need to replace the SSD, the file can be regenerated by service personnel. That's reliable too.

The calibration files are created on the KRONOS, by hand, during the production process at the factory. They can also be created on the KRONOS again at any time by service personnel - or anyone with a service manual.

To be very clear: if this was a big issue, we'd already have seen it on the OASYS, which as noted elsewhere did not maintain calibration data during a format and install (and in which, at least initially, we had a bigger problem with people reformatting because they thought the system worked like a Windows 3.1 PC). The fact that it has not been a big issue proves my point quite conclusively.

[MarPabl]

3. What happens if the calibration data isn't there? Well, nothing much. Some of the analog controls (ribbon etc.) might either not get all the way to their maximum values, or might reach their max values before the end of the physical range of the control. Or, if the analog parts were very close anyway, you might not notice anything at all.

Oh well this may be the answer we all have been waiting for this brings peace of mind comparing to previous posts:

First, please note that SSDs should be installed by authorized service centers only.

Second, note that the hardware calibration data (including keyboard response, ranges for pedals, joysticks, knobs, sliders etc.) is stored on the boot SSD. If a service center needs to replace the boot SSD, they will also carry out the complete calibration procedure. If this is not done, the hardware may not work as expected. Calibration is only supported through authorized service centers.

You make me happier

They can also be created on the KRONOS again at any time by service personnel - or anyone with a service manual.

Now we're talking! I knew you really wanted to help us! Considering we have here a public link to the service manual... Can you be so kind to tell us where do we find that procedure?

[danatkorg]

I knew you really wanted to help us!

That's generally the case.

Considering we have here a public link to the service manual... Can you be so kind to tell us where do we find that procedure?

All I can do is to suggest that you contact your Korg distributor. They're really the people to contact for any service-related information. I cannot provide it to you directly, unfortunately.

[billysynth1]

Thanks Bro...I'll print it off at work on Monday - hahaha

Love you
billy

[lonelagranger]

All I can do is to suggest that you contact your Korg distributor. They're really the people to contact for any service-related information. I cannot provide it to you directly, unfortunately.

Typical customer service answer. Thank you for all you comments and attempts to help members on this forum. It is unfortunate that you are so restricted in offering assistants on specific issues. I've been through the customer service route and it is an experience that I choose only as a last resort.

The answers you give on this forum are certainly appreciated but it is a bit frustrating to pay for a high end piece of equipment and be limited in the ability of how it funtions.

SSD drives should be very reliable. You may be able to say that you have never heard of a SSD failing on any Kronos, so don't worry about the calibration data, it is a non-issue. How about 5 years from now. Will it be a non-issue? I think people here are trying to be prepared for the day their warranty expires. We all know after that time comes the money clock starts clicking. I have learned to repair my own synths for this very reason. I cannot afford the high cost of repairs from service centers.

The Kronos is certainly not a computer, but don't tell me that it is not based on a PC structure when it has an off the shelf motherboard.

[Ojustaboo]

Hi Dan, first of all I want to make it very clear that in saying this,. I am not saying anything against you personally, I appreciate you are tied in what you are allowed to say publicly etc and I do appreciate the help you give in this forum.

Lets look at a few of the threads with the most views on this section of the forum (of course I realise some of the views will be the same people reading follow up posts)

The Kronos Fan Fix sticky, 37,216 views

Kronos RAM upgrade, 21,465 views http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd

30 GB SSD too small? - You can upgrade it, 18,999 views http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd

Selecting Correct RAM for Korg Kronos Upgrade, 11,652 views http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd

Kronos RAM Installation Procedure, 11,295 views http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd

SSD Drive Backup & Failure, 4,095 views http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd


Those figures simply show that most people are not going to pay what ends up an extortionate amount to send in their Kronos for a very very very simple RAM upgrade and a simple (for anyone that's upgraded one in their PC OK) SSD upgrade.

You keep stating that no one should be opening their Kronos, voiding the warranty etc, but the simple fact is, many many many people (I would have thought most) are not going to pay the silly prices it would cost to pay Korg to do a RAM upgrade and be without their Kronos for a couple of weeks or more when the RAM costs about £10 and is an approx 15 min job.

I realise you have to say what you say as you work for Korg.

I have built/repaired many many PC's over the years and the Kronos is far far far easier to upgrade the RAM and SSD than in many cramped PC cases I've come across in my time.

The first post in the thread "Kronos RAM Installation Procedure" shows exactly how simple the RAM upgrade is and the X version is just as easy (should you need to re-seat your RAM or it ever needs replacing).

For Korg to seriously expect most people to pay have this done by Korg, well if they really believed this , then there's not a lot I can really say apart from shake my head in disbelief.

The RAM upgrade is so simple that even if there was a problem later on that required the Kronos to be returned to Korg, it's a 15 min job to remove the RAM upgrade so that it's returned in its bought state and there's no way Korg could tell (they probably wouldn't even question if the RAM was left in there).

Here's a small thread from a year ago where a couple of people say they have changed their SSD. http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd

A thread from October 2011 http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd talks about replacing the SSD or the possibility of adding a second one. No one knew at the time whether or not they could add a second one or should just replace the first one. No response from anyone from Korg at this point.

May 2012 this thread http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... sd&start=0 various people talk about changing the SSD, Sharp says which SSD he bought, and what software he used to clone the drive. And of course if you can clone the drive it makes sense to do so, but until your post a few weeks ago, most people didn't think we 100% needed to.

Then there's this thread in August 2012 http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd where someone asks if they can remove their original SSD, and copy it with ghost to a new PC. The first reply states "not possible (essential files are protected and have to be re-installed)" which if a user came across that thread first in a search, would think they simply installed a new drive and restored from the DVD's

In December 2011, this thread (19,000 views) http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hlight=ssd started and in the first post, the op said

For those, who are asking themselves if 30 GB of SSD Drive might be a bit small on the long term, I can announce, that it is possible to upgrade to a bigger SSD Drive.

Since a second internal HDD cannot be accessed any more after updating to Version 1.5.0, you can gain more hard disk space by mounting a bigger ssd instead of the original one.

Here´s what you have to do:

1. Take away the original SSD from the Kronos and place your bigger SSD instead. If the new SSD is also faster, you´ll gain some small amount of speed later on while booting up the Kronos and for saving files to it. The original SSD has 180 MB/s read and 80 MB/s write, so everything faster than this will work for sure. (SATA II, 3G, 300 MB/s - SATA III is not compatible !!)
2. Connect a USB-CD-Rom Drive to the Kronos and turn on the Device with the first DVD inside the CD-Rom, which was delivered with it.
3. You´ll be prompted, that the new SSD is not formatted for Kronos, and you have to press enter to approve a full format and new installation...
4. Once this is done and both DVDs have been installed successfully, it´s time for the first bootup. While this first booting, you´ll be prompted to authorize the new SSD. Just follow the steps on screen and open on internet www.korg.com/kronos. There you have to register with serial number of your device and also the public id, which at this time will be displayed on your touch screen...
5. After your registration, you´ll be able to download the authorisation file to a usb stick, which has to be connected to your Kronos afterwards.
6. Finally, after the authorisation is done, you have to restart Kronos again and here we go !
7. Once it has booted, you should confirm in Disk mode, media information, that it has properly recognized the size of your new SSD and then you can update the Kronos to which version you would like to have it...


If you are thinking about to do this on your own, once your original SSD will be full, please take into consideration, that it is easier to start by now from the scratch with an empty, newly formatted SSD directly, instead of having to copy afterwards about 15 GB of your Data from one drive to another one - remember: It has Linux - Format, so it is pretty difficult to copy your content through PC to a new SSD and you cannot just connect it by external USB-Adapter to Kronos, since Kronos only reads FAT-Drives through USB...

That thread has 123 replies and people talk about cloning before replacing and for example one responce says

I imagine pulling the SSD out and copying a block level image to a new drive using dd would be a lot faster. Then just resize the partitions to match the new disk capacity. Plus, you wouldn't have to go through the trouble of reauthorizing the Kronos. That is, unless it does some sort of checksum on the partition size.

I tried this first, and I was not able to come up with a working replacement SSD afterwards. - Anyway: Cloning the drive takes longer than the whole process described above, which only took about 15 Minutes in total...

In that thread some people do clone their drives, they appear to do this so that they don't have to go through restoring the DVD's (for example, not having a compatible USB DVD drive)

No one from Korg responded to that thread at all so many people have upgraded their original SSD's without knowing anything about hidden calibration.

So, the point of all the above is to show you that in reality, most people will do a simple upgrade like RAM or SSD (or fit a good quality fan if theirs is noisy) themselves and no matter how many times you repeat things along the lines of " by an authorized service center, since users should not open up the KRONOS themselves" or "Warranty or not, folks - don't open up your KRONOS yourself" the simple fact is, that the person that bought the Kronos, owns the Kronos. They haven't rented it, and if they want to open it themselves, that's their choice. And if an incompetent person chooses to open it, that's their own silly fault.

To make something as crucial as calibration data not accessible to the average user to back up is simple wrong in my opinion.

But to recap on the original point of me wanting the service manual, it was only after a Korg employee said there was hidden calibration data on the SSD

Not hidden per se, but yes, there is calibration data on the SSD as I've said before.

This thread posted in March 2011 asked specific questions about the SSD which you took part in
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... sd&start=0

and someone asked a specific question about what happens if his SSD drive is bricked in the future, here is your response.

5) Backup - I believe I read that the rear USB ports can be used for backup which eases my mind to a degree but I would like to know a little more. I assume, the only thing being backed up are user banks, settings, samples, etc. and not the stock data. This brings me back to question 3 - if the drive goes bad. I do have some concerns that if GAS doesn't get the better part of me 5 or more years down the road and the next shiny new generation of boards are out - will i be able to get a replacement drive or will my machine be a bricked keybed (especially if the backup option doesn't allow for the stock data to be saved)?

RK

The KRONOS will ship with DVDs which can completely restore all of the factory data. We did this with the OASYS as well.

The drive is an off-the-shelf part connected via SATA, so if replacement is eventually necessary, it should be easy to do.

Best regards,

Dan

No mention of hidden calibration data, there's been no mention of it until this year

hence if our SSD died, we would have to pay Korg an extortionate amount and be without our boards for a week or two

We both know that no Korg employee ever said that to you.

I might have said it in a way that was unclear, but my use of the word "hence" meant exactly that, hence if we need to replace our SSD, we do have no option but to pay an extortionate amount. I'm not saying a korg employee said those words, I'm saying the result amounts to that.

To repeat what I put in another thread, the cost of upgrading an SSD by Korg against doing it yourself is a lot more than just how much Korg charge for it.

For a start, many people have Kronos delivered to them in countries with no authorised service centres.
(I also bet if a hidden camera was put in many authorised centres, where someone has a queue of repair work, the SSD would be replaced, they would boot it, check it works and wouldn't bother going through all the service manual tests)

Many people are hundreds of miles away from their nearest service centre and do not want to trust courier companies.

Many people don't want to be without their Kronos for a couple of weeks or more.

But the biggie is, the cost of getting the Kronos to you, finding a courier willing to take it and finding one willing to insure it. I've only managed to find one UK courier willing to insure it for the full amount, that costs £117.40 each way ($181 each way) and takes 2 - 4 days

I cant find the current prices on your web site, but after the £99 offer expired, they were £219 for a 32GB SSD and 1GB RAM.

Add £219 and the insured courier service each way and you get £453 ($700) if that isn't extortionate for parts that would cost me under £50 in total, then I don't know what is. I can buy a 32GB SSD for £33, a 60GB for £43, 128GB for £73 and a 240GB for £110

Then there's SanderXpanders comment after he went the official route to keep his warranty intact

Maybe I should've included a /sarcasm tag. I'm used to building my own systems so I could've easily done it myself. I just wanted it done via the official route to not have warranty issues. And now they put in a known to be unreliable disk.

and another korg forum member who managed to get hold of the original service manual backing this up.

Turns out it wasn't true at all.

Turns out what wasn't true?

- Dan

If I am mistaken here I sincerely apologise but I have seen nothing in the service manual that implies what you say.

Sure there's screen calibration but everything else simply says they are tests and what the result should be, that to most people would read as a simple test and if something fails, either the part is faulty or there's a pot etc somewhere that needs adjusting (not something that would be stored on the SSD).

It could be the manual is badly written and the tests are in fact calibrating. If that is the case, then I hold my hands up and apologise but I guarantee you that engineers at many service centres would read that in exactly the same way I and others have.

There's also the option to select the keybed.

There is nothing else in the service manual about any form of calibration so either it is worded wrong in the manual, or there is no calibration done. (If the keybed is actually calibrated by the way described in the service manual rather than just giving the test results, then I'm not surprised velocity is all over the place for many people as the keys can never be hit at exactly the same velocity twice)


Korg are their own worst enemy here.

They chose to use cheap fans, this lead to some people having problems, them wanting better fans, hence people started opening their machines. One person tried to do it properly, they asked Korg if they supplied korg with a superior fan, Korg would open it up and fit it for them, Korg said it wasn't allowed to, so they had a choice, be without their Kronos for a few weeks and have it back with another cheapo fan, or do it themselves.

They chose to design the Kronos in a way the back needs to be removed to install RAM and SSD. RAM would be a bit harder to do (but not impossible) due to the nature of the motherboard used, but the SSD could have easily be designed in some sort of bracket that allowed a panel at the back etc to be removed and the user access it themselves (a bit like the PS3).

And the whole service manual saga, the reason this whole thing started is because Korg decided for some odd reason to store calibration data on the SSD that the user cannot backup. Allowing the user to backup system info to a file on their SSD and copy it to their PC via FTP/USB etc would be VERY easy for Korg to implement, it does kind of look like they've done this deliberately and there's only three reasons that makes sense to me and they are,

1) so that if at any time in the Kronos life time the SSD dies, the customer HAS to send it to Korg for replacement, hence work for the service department
2) as a way of trying to get used Kronos off the market as people wont be able to repair them themselves and wouldn't be able to warrant the cost of sending them to Korg
3) Someone at Korg is incompetent and hasn't thought things through.

As those threads at the beginning of this post show, numerous people decided to replace their original SSD with larger ones and it wasn't until 2013 you mentioned the calibration data.

Again, I want to stress I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm saying Korg should have made it BOLDLY and in CAPITALS in numerous manuals and probably also something stuck on the Kronos that the user has to remove when unpacking, warning them that the SSD contains calibration data in a hidden partition.

As things went, numerous people did upgrade their own machines, many did so when a second SSD wouldn't work, hence they replaced their original, I suspect a lot of them used their originals in their PC's etc and for this bombshell to be dropped in 2013 (again not blaming you), well a lot of people were suddenly very worried.

If my SSD died, I can order online up to 11pm tonight and have a new one delivered tomorrow, that is the way I would go, that is the way many many people would go. It's our choice. Many people myself included only have one keyboard, we don't want to be without it for weeks. So as soon as this calibration issue came up, I needed to protect my investment in the company you work for, hence needed to know how I can replace my SSD should I ever need to do so.

Others are in the same situation, many already having replaced theirs. Korg designing it so that it works this way with the calibration data not being backupable to our PC's is Korgs own fault, and for Korg to then stop people finding out how to recreate it themselves, well in my opinion it's morally wrong (just as I think its morally wrong for Korg not to tell us what serial number we can guarantee wont have the RH3 problem)

Hence I found the original manual and I let others find it too. It really is that simple

And again I really cant stress enough that while I know you are forced to say this due to your position, the line that we shouldn't be opening our Kronos ourselves, does not get around the fact that most will do so and Korg should have realise this would be the case.

Even the forums owner has posted a video on how to upgrade the SSD and the author of PCGTools has said how he upgraded the RAM himself.

Then there's those who have urgent gigs coming up, their Kronos has failed to boot, and others say to check the Ram is seated, they remove a few screws, spend 30 secs reseating their ram and they're ready to go, should they cancel their gig because of this, spend £200+ in courier fees plus Korgs own charge and be without their kronos for a couple of weeks or more? (and not everyone is a pro musician who can afford backup keyboards)

1. To my knowledge, format and install has never been necessary for a single KRONOS user unless they installed their own SSD (which is specifically advised against in the manuals, presumably voids warranty etc.). That doesn't mean that someone hasn't decided to take matters into their own hands and do a format/install when it wasn't necessary, of course.

I suspect many people will have formatted it, just because they don't need to does not mean they wont do it. I wanted to restore my Kronos to the original settings, the only reason I chose not to do the full format option was due to pure luck I had happened to read about reauthorising and I didn't want to have to bother doing that. A lot of people will simply put the DVD in a DVD drive, power the Kronos on, see the 4 options and pick one without reading the manuals and many that choose to read the manual will read the first bit but not bother turning the page to read the full description of each thing as for most people "Format and Full install" is self explanatory.

I knew you really wanted to help us!

That's generally the case.

Considering we have here a public link to the service manual... Can you be so kind to tell us where do we find that procedure?

All I can do is to suggest that you contact your Korg distributor. They're really the people to contact for any service-related information. I cannot provide it to you directly, unfortunately.

Well the only non hardware part in the service manual is the test section, so running the test MUST be what writes the calibration data to the SSD, there simply isn't any other option in the service manual.

Again I want to stress none of this is towards you personally, I appreciate the help you give this forum and I appreciate the position you are in with regards to what you can and cannot say.

I haven't pointed people to the service manual out of childish spite, if it was available to buy I would tell people to buy it, I'm simply trying to help those that need the info that Korg wont give, so that their £3k machines can function correctly.

[danatkorg]

I've been through the customer service route and it is an experience that I choose only as a last resort.

My experience is quite different, I have to say. When I have a problem with a piece of gear, my first course is to call the manufacturer or their rep in my country (USA in my case). I did that just yesterday, in fact.

The answers you give on this forum are certainly appreciated

Thank you.

SSD drives should be very reliable. You may be able to say that you have never heard of a SSD failing on any Kronos, so don't worry about the calibration data, it is a non-issue. How about 5 years from now. Will it be a non-issue?

Yes, I expect that it will still be a non-issue. The OASYS was first manufactured eight years ago, in 2005, using a rotational hard drive. It's not an issue for the OASYS.

I think people here are trying to be prepared for the day their warranty expires. We all know after that time comes the money clock starts clicking. I have learned to repair my own synths for this very reason. I cannot afford the high cost of repairs from service centers.

In that case, you may be able to convince your distributor to give you the information you need for calibration. If you look through the OASYS forum, you'll find that some people have that info. The critical point is that this is the decision of the distributor - not me.

The Kronos is certainly not a computer, but don't tell me that it is not based on a PC structure when it has an off the shelf motherboard.

I have never intended to imply otherwise. Perhaps the point of confusion is that I have said repeatedly that people used to old Windows computers sometimes think that reinstalling the system software is the first cure for all unexpected behavior. That is not the case with the KRONOS.

- DAn

[lonelagranger]

Dan,

Thank you for replying to some of my comments on the Kronos. I don't think you would be here in such a defensive positon, swatting at flies, if Korg had not released a keyboard with so many issues. I love my Kronos X. I got the Kronos X because the salesman I have used at Guitar Center for the last 20 years told me to only get the Kronos X. He stated they had many returns on the original Kronos. Korg has caused all of these negative comments because of their choice of materials used to make the Kronos, basically as cheap as they could to get the most money as they could. I mean I have the 88 note version and when I pick it up I can actually feel it bend. It has very cheap side ends. One or two bumbs and their history.

I do want to know as much as I can about this keyboard because it does not feel like the old Korgs and I doubt it will have as long a life span as, say, the M1; which I still have and it works perfectly. I could almost stand on it and it would still keep on going. The Kronos is not made of this type of quality. Korg choose to put in a cheap fan. No one forced them to. Korg choose the keybed to use. They didn't ask us. Then when problems with the keybed came to light Korg choose to keep selling defective boards and let the customer deal with it when they purchased one. That is not the sign of a company that is all that concerned about its customers.

I have purchased just about every keyboard made by Korg since the M1, including their arrangers. I consider myself a Korg fan. My Kronos is running fine and I am happy about that. I do not, however, move it around. It stays in one place. I appreciate all of the technology that Korg has afforded us in this version of the keyboard. It is just a shame that it has had some very basic operational issues. If it was not such an expensive board I think people would not be as vocal about these issues. However, a lot of people saved up for months to get this keyboard. I think the poor quality of some of its parts has made people feel they have been taken advantage of by Korg. We were used to associating Korg with high quality products in this price range. I think the Kronos has changed some peoples perspective in this matter.

I will use my Kronos X and enjoy the hell out of it. I know when something happens I will have the ability to fix it myself. It would not be the first keyboard that I have torn apart. However, I am under warranty at the moment and I would not do anything to it until the warranty has expired. Hopefully upon expiration it will still be working, which I am sure it will. I will probably expire first.

I love Korg products. However, as good as the Kronos is I still think Korg shot themselves in the foot with this one. They not only dropped the ball. They jumped on it until it was flat as a pancake.

[Ojustaboo]

Dan,

Thank you for replying to some of my comments on the Kronos. I don't think you would be here in such a defensive positon, .......................... .

Yep, I agree with your entire post 100%

I have my 88 X on a quiklok Z-726L stand. That means the Kronos is supported near both ends and nothing supporting it in between which is a gap of 40".

I don't move my Kronos, but you saying you can feel yours bend in the middle when you pick it up, now makes me worry that my stand could end up causing problems down the road, is my Kronos going to end up slightly bent down in the middle? Should I think about putting a thick solid sheet of wood across the stand and place the Kronos on that?

Not things I should have to worry about on a £3100 keyboard.

[lonelagranger]

Should I think about putting a thick solid sheet of wood across the stand and place the Kronos on that?

I would do just that. I don't think the Kronos would actually bend. I do think that the internal circuit boards could be put under more stress than if they were supported with heavier material. Mine is on a solid stand with a board to support the entire length of the keyboard.

[Ojustaboo]

Should I think about putting a thick solid sheet of wood across the stand and place the Kronos on that?

I would do just that. I don't think the Kronos would actually bend. I do think that the internal circuit boards could be put under more stress than if they were supported with heavier material. Mine is on a solid stand with a board to support the entire length of the keyboard.

Thanks. I think I'll follow your advice.

[danatkorg]

Hi Dan, first of all I want to make it very clear that in saying this,. I am not saying anything against you personally, I appreciate you are tied in what you are allowed to say publicly etc and I do appreciate the help you give in this forum.

Thank you.

Lets look at a few of the threads with the most views on this section of the forum

Yes, I read the forums and know what people write about.

Those figures simply show that most people are not going to pay what ends up an extortionate amount to send in their Kronos for a very very very simple RAM upgrade and a simple (for anyone that's upgraded one in their PC OK) SSD upgrade.

First, I don't think you've achieved your stated goal of proof about "most people." (It's a common confusion to think that the online community represents all users.)
Second, I object to the repeated usage of "extortionate."
I happen to know that some concern was applied to keep upgrade costs low for our users.
Third, please note that in most cases people aren't paying "Korg" anything. These upgrades are done at authorized service centers, which - at least here in the USA - are independent businesses. We aren't trying to drum up business for Korg here.

You keep stating that no one should be opening their Kronos, voiding the warranty etc,

Yes, and that's absolutely correct. The Kronos is not designed to be user-serviceable. While it may be easy to replace the RAM once the machine is open, for instance, getting it open and then closing it again requires care to avoid problems (crimped cables, parts alignment etc.).

when the RAM costs about £10 and is an approx 15 min job.

If opening up and closing a KRONOS is a 15 minute job for you, I'm impressed.

In that thread some people do clone their drives, they appear to do this so that they don't have to go through restoring the DVD's (for example, not having a compatible USB DVD drive)

No one from Korg responded to that thread at all so many people have upgraded their original SSD's without knowing anything about hidden calibration.

Now, hold on just a minute. You seem to be saying that it was our responsibility to comment in that thread. In fact, as you have noted, I have written repeatedly that the KRONOS is not user-serviceable. That is our comment on the topic. The manual is extremely clear on this point:

* * *
Support for additional RAM
Installation of an additional 1GB of RAM is now supported, and can be performed at any authorized Korg service center. This approximately doubles the maximum available sample RAM, up to about 2 GB. Of course, when loading EXs using Virtual Memory, the total size of the loaded sample data can be much greater.
The KRONOS uses widely available, off‐the‐shelf DIMMs. Installation by an authorized Korg service center is required; user installation is not supported and may void your warranty. For more information on how to purchase and arrange for installation of RAM, please contact your country’s Korg Distributor:
http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/index.html

* * *
Second Internal SSD support
The KRONOS now supports installation of a second internal SSD, for more storage of samples, audio tracks, and program data. Installation must be done by an authorized service center; user installation is not supported and may void your warranty. Contact your Korg Distributor for details on purchase and installation.

* * *

And yet you say:

Again, I want to stress I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm saying Korg should have made it BOLDLY and in CAPITALS in numerous manuals and probably also something stuck on the Kronos that the user has to remove when unpacking, warning them that the SSD contains calibration data in a hidden partition.

We don't specifically warn you not to disconnect the power supply internally, either - though that would certainly cause the system not to function. That's because you're not supposed to be there in the first place. The same thing applies here.

There is nothing else in the service manual about any form of calibration so either it is worded wrong in the manual, or there is no calibration done.

I can't comment at all on some version of a service manual that might have been sold to you by a third party without authorization to do so. I have no idea what doc you're looking at. However, I'm on the development team, and I know whereof I speak. You can believe me or not, your choice.

And the whole service manual saga, the reason this whole thing started is because Korg decided for some odd reason to store calibration data on the SSD that the user cannot backup. Allowing the user to backup system info to a file on their SSD and copy it to their PC via FTP/USB etc would be VERY easy for Korg to implement,

Which in previous discussions I've agreed that would be nice to do, though I don't think it's necessary.

it does kind of look like they've done this deliberately and there's only three reasons that makes sense to me and they are,

1) so that if at any time in the Kronos life time the SSD dies, the customer HAS to send it to Korg for replacement, hence work for the service department
2) as a way of trying to get used Kronos off the market as people wont be able to repair them themselves and wouldn't be able to warrant the cost of sending them to Korg
3) Someone at Korg is incompetent and hasn't thought things through.

That's complete nonsense, on the level of conspiracy theories about faked moon landings.
I have written, again and again, that Korg does not in general make money off of service - since it's often done by independent shops! - and that I have never, ever heard any talk of trying to provide business to service centers as an aspect of design.

Such nonsensical trash is deeply insulting and unwarranted, regardless of the niceties that you've offered to me personally. If you persist in this approach, further discussion will not be possible.

- Dan

[lonelagranger]

I have written, again and again, that Korg does not in general make money off of service - since it's often done by independent shops! - and that I have never, ever heard any talk of trying to provide business to service centers as an aspect of design.

You state that Korg, IN GENERAL, does not make money off of service. If that is what you say then I believe you, but I also read it as meaning they also do make money off of serivce. As you say IN GENERAL they do not, but then there must be cases where they do.

You then say you have never, ever heard any talk of trying to provide business to service centers as an aspect of design. Maybe you were not present when said talks took place. Do you think serivce centers exist not to make money. Most all manufacturers today make products with a built in lifespan. That is a fact of business. Why would a company make a product to last forever. The object of a company is to sell more product. I understand what you are saying. That Korg does its best to provide a very high performing product, and I am sure they sincerely try to do that. However, on the Kronos it appears a lot of people got faulty units and had to go through an expense and inconvenience to have their units fixed. Even if the unit is covered under warranty, I do not believe that Korgs picks up the cost of shipping. That is an expense the customer must bear. I do not think some of the comments made on this forum are nonsense. I think they are an expression of some peoples frustration with their unit. It is great that you offer information on this forum and answer questions from members. I certainly have no intention of insulting you in anyway. It has to be very difficult for you. The Kronos has sort of turn into a hornets nest. I can say I am completely happy with my purchase of the Kronos X 88 note keyboard. I wished it was built a little more sturdy, but I accept it for what it is, a very good instrument.