Yamaha Reface

[Davd C. Polich]

Looks like the haters here are just intent on hating. Fine.

Once again, haters, you'e missing the point. You are not the target market for this product. There is nothing for you here...move on. You have a world of other products which will work for you.

And you've forgotten that Yamaha sells to world markets, not just the U.S. and Europe. These will sell quite well in Japan, which is Yamaha's home market (as well as Korg's).

[Bachus]

Its a buiseness move, they are just repackaging their current technollogy and wrapping it up witouth almost any development costs.

They are selling these toys to the deejay wannabee musician kiddies that think of them as cool toys with a huge sound..

Anyone that thinks they are aiming at serious musicians with these minikeybeds are very wrong... Its just marketing, nothing more.



I think that later this year, yamaha will show us their true face again, with the montage, a true Kronos competitor.. It took them 7 years to create..

[chilly7]

Its a buiseness move, they are just repackaging their current technollogy and wrapping it up witouth almost any development costs.

They are selling these toys to the deejay wannabee musician kiddies that think of them as cool toys with a huge sound..

Anyone that thinks they are aiming at serious musicians with these minikeybeds are very wrong... Its just marketing, nothing more.

+1

[padking]

The real problem is that the public they are aiming for
think they are musicians.

Padking

[EvilDragon]

I think that later this year, yamaha will show us their true face again, with the montage, a true Kronos competitor.. It took them 7 years to create..

I hope so too, but it's all just wishful thinking at this point...

[Mr_SamDoogie]

I'm sorry to say but honestly do understand Yamaha Reface targets public that uses these small form factors which is practically the performance with EDM and related music that is growing.

People who love big synths with 76, 88 keys are not in the scope of these things, I actually like them because another practical use that is traveling with something I like to carry and experiment with music create tunes design sounds or kick in to someone else performance. I want to feel key's and connect on the go without pulling an ipad and separate keyboard.

This market is a whole different game and it appeared with the scene that where up coming and running strong so these Reface are a solution that nicely fits there.

So the target seems to be able jam an performance audience and a performer preferring light gear with decent sounds. Not a classical variant s of a previous decade.

[StephenKay]

I think these products will do extremely well for Yamaha. The target market is absolutely not the people that would hang out at this forum. (I wonder what the median age is here?) The target market (seems to me) is young people with some musical interest (not necessarily actual musicians) who want to play around with a good-sounding, easy to carry keyboard and not spend $2000+. The same kind of people who would buy Apple's latest gadget. I mean, let's face it - it's not easy to be a real musician and make a living at it. There's plenty of room for just having a super-easy to carry little keyboard (that actually sounds great, and is not a casio-toy) for jamming with friends - but do those kind of people really need a Kronos? The fact that it runs on batteries for 5 hours or so is pretty cool! Imagine 5 of these in a clearing out in the woods on a nice summer day, by the lake...

Also, it seems the form factor ties in with EDM where they use a lot of little devices all daisy-chained together. You don't need a full-sized keyboard for that.

If Yamaha actually believed that "serious keyboardists (the kind who buy Kronos and Motif XF) are going to badly want these" then that would be a different thing; but I don't think that's what they think at all.

Anyway, I'd say that video was a pretty damn good presentation of that product line - although I won't be coming out with KARMA Reface anytime soon.

[Ricky_jcr]

The major talking point seems to be the age factor.

Well, let me say this because I'm one of those who can offer a perspective. I'm 19 years old, and I've played keyboards since I was 11. I'm a decent enough player, and I play progressive rock, a genre which would require a technical approach to keyboard playing. I wouldn't want this sort of thing at all.
Now, talking from a general point of view, I have a lot of musician (and indeed keyboard playing) friends, who might not be very good at the "playing" part. But let me assure you, they wouldn't go for the Yamaha reface simply because it looks like a child's toy.
No matter how good it sounds, chances are someone who doesn't know the basics of keyboard (which is in the general opinion, the target audience), would not be able to appreciate the sound quality as well. Some of that group would base their choice solely on the looks. And quite frankly, it looks like a toy.

I'm just giving my view here, don't kill me.

[NuSkoolTone]

You think Yamaha is going to cancel the release of these products because YOU complained? You were never going to buy them anyway.

Sorry, I think almost all of the posts on this thread, and this thread itself, is a bunch of whining just to be whining. None of you are manufacturers. You think Yamaha puts out anything without doing market research? They do not. No company stays in business without doing market research and bringing out new products that address that research.

I think some of you were the same people that bitched and moaned about Korg's re-release of the ARP Odyssey. Something about "mini-keys", I recall. But here's the thing - YOU are not the target market for this product. No matter how much you hate, you can't change that fact.

How about just not saying anything negative about a company and their products? If you want to make a statement, just don't buy any Reface synths.

Don't be absurd. Of course not. However I wasn't asking for them "not to release it". However I AM saying that to those of us that have been waiting for YEARS for a REAL Motif replacement with money in hand, this is a SLAP IN THE FACE.

How can I NOT say something negative? This is the Yamaha that brought us the DX7, the VL1, the CS80. Now all they release seem to be TOYS, or marginally improved rehashes at best. Over the last couple of years Yamaha seems to no longer be a serious player in the market. I mean even the XF was an OBVIOUS "Holdover" board and that was 5 YEARS AGO. HELLO? What the hell are you guys doing over there?

Essentially it's the same board from 2007 with minor tweaks. 2007. That's 8 Years ago. That's a LONG time and not normal for product refreshes in the MI world. At least for the past 25+ years I've been watching it. Hell even the OA$Y$ found life again in the Kronos 6 years after release. As a company, Korg is a bit smaller than Yamaha AFAIK.

To be fair Roland has been screwing the pooch the last couple of years too with this "Trend". Which brings this well put point:

Did this really happen? No, of course not. Because companies don't stay in business long by making vanity products that don't sell.

Here's the thing - products under $1000 sell a LOT more than products over $2500. And if you have ever worked music retail, you'd know that you make more money on products under a grand than you do on big-ticket items.

And apps priced at $9.95 sell a lot more than products priced at $400-$500. There's nothing about these devices that couldn't have been made into an iPad app with the same sound quality, with which the user can control with a MIDI controller of their choice.

With the Reface series, if you want all the different sound engines, it's going to cost between $1500 and $2000 and take up more room than a Kronos 61!

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

I have an iPad and some synths on it which are truly GREAT! Reface almost certainly could have been apps. SO I'd have the whole reface line for under $100. That'll sell a boatload! So how far "dumbing down" do you wanna go? You don't see the slippery slope?

What I think Yamaha (and to a lesser degree Roland) doesn't "see" is THIS:

When there are fewer and fewer compelling PROFESSIONAL products to purchase, we start looking elsewhere. I've already considered looking into the viability of an iPad with a decent controller as my second board/portable gig rig. After awhile these "Non professional" ideas start to gain acceptance as a viable ALTERNATIVE to what's always been the status quo.

All that needs to happen is for someone to come up with a nice wrapper app for iPad that encapsulates all your music apps making it into a "workstation". So you can do things like make a "Combi" or "Performance" of different patches from different apps complete with midi channels, zones, and controller assignments with a way to switch between all this live. Not yet "Game Over" but a first nail in the coffin to be sure.

Wait long enough, and "GAME OVER" will be here for established MI companies. You need to come out with a REASON to stay hardware based. Korg gets it (Kronos), so why doesn't Yamaha?

Now tell me the reface is R & D and product to cover costs for the next upcoming Yamaha workstation and I'll feel a lot better!

[jimknopf]

Of course Dave is right that there's no need for hatred: just not buying these things and moving on is enough.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with doubts about the whole concept and a little bit of mocking, especially in view of Yamahas completely overblown marketing campaign promising something great which never happenend.

Frankly, I doubt almost everything positive that has been argued here in favour of these little XL-Bontempis:

- the toys are aimed at Asian and other EDM markets? Seriously??? You mean for these guys and gilrs who are synth scientists by birth and never need access to any presets for their EDM and Hip-Hop Songs?

- or they enjoy connecting their iPad just for getting presets??? Seriously? Man, they got much more useful sounds WITH presets FROM their iPad apps directly! As an iPad Air user, soundwise I have not much more than a friendly yawn for the offer.

- and IF anyone wishes to connect a mini keyboard to an iPad, any Microkorg version will deliver a working pitch-/modwheel unit for everything up to wobbles, in sharp contrast to these Yamaha toys with their fiddly little halfbaked controls. Plus presets. Plus massively higher variety of sounds. Plus effect settings stored with presets etc. etc. from the Microkorg.

Maybe the CP would have had a fair chance
- IF it had onboard sound management allowing to save some dozen presets with your own effect settings
- IF the silly toy piano sound (that's not even a gag anymore) had been replaced by any halfway decent piano sound
That would have been a kind of nice little campfire and city micro stage piano just for fun. But as it is now?


There's always people who are in the market for useful 500 bucks musical tools. And some of them may buy anything, if it makes some interesting sounds at all. But most of them are smart enough to buy something with slightly more usablity than THAT for sure. I have a lot of doubts that this will convince many people, no matter if in Europe, Amercia or Asia, EDM or not. It's just an utterly halfbaked concept for about any possible customer on earth, at any age, for any musical purpose, from my view.

I wished Yamaha would have come around with something sigifincantly smarter!

[Bachus]

Of course Dave is right that there's no need for hatred: just not buying these things and moving on is enough.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with doubts about the whole concept and a little bit of mocking, especially in view of Yamahas completely overblown marketing campaign promising something great which never happenend.

Frankly, I doubt almost everything positive that has been argued here in favour of these little XL-Bontempis:

- the toys are aimed at Asian and other EDM markets? Seriously??? You mean for these guys and gilrs who are synth scientists by birth and never need access to any presets for their EDM and Hip-Hop Songs?

- or they enjoy connecting their iPad just for getting presets??? Seriously? Man, they got much more useful sounds WITH presets FROM their iPad apps directly! As an iPad Air user, soundwise I have not much more than a friendly yawn for the offer.

- and IF anyone wishes to connect a mini keyboard to an iPad, any Microkorg version will deliver a working pitch-/modwheel unit for everything up to wobbles, in sharp contrast to these Yamaha toys with their fiddly little halfbaked controls. Plus presets. Plus massively higher variety of sounds. Plus effect settings stored with presets etc. etc. from the Microkorg.

Maybe the CP would have had a fair chance
- IF it had onboard sound management allowing to save some dozen presets with your own effect settings
- IF the silly toy piano sound (that's not even a gag anymore) had been replaced by any halfway decent piano sound
That would have been a kind of nice little campfire and city micro stage piano just for fun. But as it is now?


There's always people who are in the market for useful 500 bucks musical tools. And some of them may buy anything, if it makes some interesting sounds at all. But most of them are smart enough to buy something with slightly more usablity than THAT for sure. I have a lot of doubts that this will convince many people, no matter if in Europe, Amercia or Asia, EDM or not. It's just an utterly halfbaked concept for about any possible customer on earth, at any age, for any musical purpose, from my view.

I wished Yamaha would have come around with something sigifincantly smarter!

I dont think its hatred, i think its dissapointment, people have been wayting for the next big thing of Yamaha for way way to long...

And its that disspaointment that makes people react emotional.


After all when it comes to our collection of musical toys we all turn into little boys on christmass eve.

[EvilDragon]

(that actually sounds great, and is not a casio-toy)

Errr, Casio PX5S sounds absolutely great, and has a great feeling triple sensor keybed. And is like under 12 pounds!

[Bachus]

(that actually sounds great, and is not a casio-toy)

Errr, Casio PX5S sounds absolutely great, and has a great feeling triple sensor keybed. And is like under 12 pounds!

I think it was meant as a figure of speach..... Cant imagine of Steven thinking the current line of pro casio instruments are Toys...

I am expecting a px5s replacement at Namm 2016, that will blow everything in the under €1000 pricerange out of the water.

[Jan1]

Yamaha made a big mistake in mimicking Roland's AIRA marketing campaign for the Reface line which, - let's face it-, look as if they come straight out of a toy store and which offer nothing revolutionary in any way. It's like Gabriel being given the order to blow the last horn to announce the end of days and watching him coming on the cosmic stage with a kazoo in his hand.

Having said that, the demos I have seen are in favor of the sound these Reface gadgets can make: great quality, and I imagine I could have lots of fun with it (in spite of the mini keys which I hate).
But as I said, in my view they are gadgets, nothing else, and as such I would rather save my money for a real playable instrument.

[EvilDragon]

I am expecting a px5s replacement at Namm 2016, that will blow everything in the under €1000 pricerange out of the water.

As if PX5S isn't already doing that