Montage by Yamaha

Devnor · Post by **Devnor** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:04 pm

I dunno about you guys but I already own quite a few sequencers already. When someone says they are looking at Montage to complement the Kronos, then says they reject Montage because it does not have an editable sequencer really makes zero sense. Couldn't you use the Kronos sequencer? Along the same lines someone says their gig needs a sequencer, totally understandable but rejects Montage because the sequencer isn't fully featured yet already owns sequencers and could just drop the finished midi file to Montage doesn't make alot of practical sense. Or when someone says it has only 64 sequences. You could load in another 64 sequences from a USB key. Assuming your band takes a break somewhere between those 65+ tunes you are doing in 1 night.

Yamaha clearly stated the reason why they didnt go all in over a sequencer was because their research indicated the majority of musicians were moving towards the DAW. Instead of a fully featured sequencer, they opted for 16+ audio streams over USB without the need for drivers. There is still a sequencer for the gigging guys and you can use samples too so why all the sour grapes?

I'm hearing things from Montage I have not heard from any hardware synth. I'm not talking about arps and crossfades but instead it's the things they are doing with the macro controller (Super Knob) and FM-X. I have read where Kronos & AMS does the same thing but it sounds like nobody is using it (pun intended). Where's the beef?

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:17 pm

Devnor, I also like some of the FM-X sounds in the Montage, and I was really stunned by some electric guitar FM sounds from it. I also always liked and still like some of the natural instrument sounds in the Motifs and the Montage.

But the Kronos and the Montage would still have a huge overlap, both providing a broad range of basic sounds. I would certainly not spend 3000 bucks for that, neither for a few nice additional sounds which I like, nor just for adding another flavor of these basic sounds, nor for the super knob. The Kronos already offers FM and loads of modulation via AMS andlots of controllers as well. In contrast to the Montage you can even import classical FM patches directly. So as much as I like these Montage FM guitars, I wouldn't buy a whole keyboard for these or some other sounds, or just for the super knob.

I'm really not sure for whom they have developed this concept, if it doesn't do one of three things
- be a convincinig successor for Motif owners
- be even better (with a great sounding CS engine, an organ clone, a fully useable sequencer, easy access to user sampling with enough space etc.) and challenge any other mulit-purpose synth on the market including the Kronos
- be something really special you would like to have besides your basic keyboard, like just a very special FM synth at half of the price of the Montage, with sounds far beyond Mod7.

The problem with the Montage is: it tries to be a bit of this and that (not even of everything), without even coming close one of the above purposes.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:20 pm

For my personal situation and that of all gigging pros around me I'm actually completely in Kevin's camp. I would never ever use an on board sequencer and love the 16 audio tracks over USB thing. I'd bring a laptop with Ableton to the gig and use the Montage as soundcard.

The thing is that I know there are substantial amounts of gigging players that do want an on board sequencer. It's possible that Yamaha hasn't polled too effectively, or possibly they figure that market is dying out. The only thing I find strange is that they already had very well working sequencer code around. It's not like they had to start from scratch. So I guess it's a conscious choice. Perhaps Montage is bundled with a cheap version of Cubase?

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:23 pm

Yes, Montage is bundled with a light Cubase version. And one of it's strong points are the 16 channels of audio.

Still that isn't a convincing overall concept from my view. And I tried using a laptop for a while and didn't like it for a bunch of reasons.

From my view the present situation will only change, after tablets become as powerful as the best notebooks are now, without having fanless heat problems: that could be the beginning of a hybrid concept, where you just plug your tablet as UI into a synth surface providing keys, controllers and soundcard, and off you go with specialized software from the big brands - or from someone completely else - on your tablet. But we're not there yet, and won't be in the next few years.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:33 pm

To me it's way more worthwhile than an on board sequencer. Although they made a catastrophic mistake in that there are only two assignable outputs. Meaning if you want to use your computer as backing, you don't have a spare output for a click track. You'd need a soundcard after all. /sigh #soclose

Jan1 · Post by **Jan1** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:06 am

Perhaps it's worthwhile pointing out that according to Blake Angelos the development of the Montage 'will be evolving', and there's no doubt that Yamaha will use the input they receive to determine whether or not certain features will be implemented.
That's why I think it's important to let your wishes and suggestions be known.

My criticism of the sequencer in no way means I dismiss the Montage for that reason.
I still like the sound I have heard in the demos very much, and once it becomes available I certainly will try it out for myself.
But to dismiss an entire group of people and claim that nobody wants an onboard sequencer and if you do you live in the past is not very respectful nor is it true.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:24 am

Remember: people who have questioned the heavy limitations of the Montage sampling concept have faced the same kind of respectless dismissal as those who have asked for better sequencer functionality, with funny and competely displaced Yamaha rep efforts of explaining to them what they really need - from Yamaha's view.

Maybe Yamaha will update the Montage in the course of time. But I'm quite sceptical concerning the degree of changes: we neither know how much headroom the synth really has, nor what degree of enhancement will really happen within the Montage (or perhaps in a lollow up instead). Memory seems to be fixed and quite limited, for example.

So far Yamaha has not earned a reputation of delivering lots of significant updates for their flagship synths. Korg has delivered six significant updates for the Kronos in 5 years (if I count right). And which OS updates of what kind have Motif users seen in that time within the OS of the synth they bought???

After the Roland Fantom G update desaster I have learned my lesson not to put too much trust in further development of a synth I buy. Significant updates may happen or not.

afr · Post by **afr** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:36 am

+1

said that, I'm sure that mantage will sound very well but there are limitations that many people on several forums ( yamahasynth included ) are showing and Yamaha is not considering at all

About new features ... I'm not so optimistic

jimknopf wrote:Remember: people who have questioned the heavy limitations of the Montage sampling concept have faced the same kind of respectless dismissal as those who have asked for better sequencer functionality, with funny and competely displaced Yamaha rep efforts of explaining to them what they really need - from Yamaha's view.

Maybe Yamaha will update the Montage in the course of time. But I'm quite sceptical concerning the degree of changes: we neither know how much headroom the synth really has, nor what degree of enhancement will really happen within the Montage (or perhaps in a lollow up instead). Memory seems to be fixed and quite limited, for example.

So far Yamaha has not earned a reputation of delivering lots of significant updates for their flagship synths. Korg has delivered six significant updates for the Kronos in 5 years (if I count right). And which OS updates of what kind have Motif users seen in that time within the OS of the synth they bought???

After the Roland Fantom G update desaster I have learned my lesson not to put too much trust in further development of a synth I buy. Significant updates may happen or not.

lunaluna · Post by **lunaluna** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:00 pm

IMHO I think at the end of the day after all the discussions here the buttom line for almost everyone is $3000.00 !!!!! After all the pros and cons are counted $3000.00 is just to steep !

Derek Cook · Post by **Derek Cook** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:55 pm

lunaluna wrote:IMHO I think at the end of the day after all the discussions here the buttom line for almost everyone is $3000.00 !!!!! After all the pros and cons are counted $3000.00 is just to steep !

That depends on circumstance and what gig income (in my case) you have coming in to pay for it. And of course who much G.A.S it is inflicting on you!

The question is more "is the Montage worth that price to each and every one of us (value is in the eyes of the beholder)".

Whilst it sounds steep, you are getting a Montage or similar for less than the price of a DX7 in 1983, and a lot more for your money (compared to 6 OP FM, 32 memies, 16 note poly, teeny LCD, no sequencer (no matter how "limited", no significant control surface, no effects.....).

A DX7 cost around £1,400 in 1993, which would be around £4,200 in today's money. So these high end workstations around between (£2,100 and £3000 depending on keybed) are good value compared the past. E.g. a Montage 6 advertised at £2100 is 50% cheaper than the DX7 at today's prices. Even a Montage 8 is 30% cheaper.

The acid question is is it worth that much to you as an individual?

ErnstDabest · Post by **ErnstDabest** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:36 pm

Is the Montage a sought after be all and end all holy-grail synth.. IDK ?
So far all i see on it that's different is a BIG luminous volume knod that
when you turn it up clockwise makes 'swishy-swashy' sounds...

Come to think of it,

A white noise filter sweep patch into an amp mod on an analog synth
does exactly the same thing.. so, is having a BIG knob worth $3000 ?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhIdbRp6xeg" target="_top">Absolutely........... </a> <-------(click)

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:50 pm

With you on that.

The success of Montage is likely to be on its AWM programs, for the Motif user base / gigging musician.

But, as you suggest, it is indeed far from clear that this instrument will be a financial success - it most certainly isn't the complete article. Indeed, it's a risk for Yamaha in as much as Motif has sold over 130,000 units; so to change name and direction, even if the Motif legacy and compatibility is maintained, may be a risk.

I'm with anyone who questions spending $3000 on an instrument like this when as SanderXpander has pointed out you get amazing FM synthesis in FM8 for less than $100.

For the likes of me it's a dream-machine because I love Yamaha's approach to FM synthesis, understand it and program in it; while I also recognise and applaud it's 'nod' to performance control - but agree that this instrument will not be to everybody's liking - far from it.

But I do think that it is a quality instrument (despite the cost) and that the strength of 6GB of AWM voices and FM-X will likely carry it to solid success. It also looks good - it really does look like a Yamaha synth, so it'll fit into professional keyboard rigs the world over as Triton and Motif have throughout the decades - a kind of 'staple' for gigging musicians.

At a minimum - they'll ensure Stevie Wonder uses one on tour and that'll give ample publicity !!

dfahrner · Post by **dfahrner** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:43 pm

This thread now has 21 pages of postings by people who have never played a Montage (or probably even seen one in person)...how about no more postings until someone has some actual first-hand experience?

df

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:48 am

I'm not particularly interested in Fishing as a hobby - so I'm not a member of a Fishing Forum - and I certainly never considered a surely arrogant stance of joining a Fishing forum and tell everyone there to stop talking about Fishing because I don't like it.

dfahrner · Post by **dfahrner** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:30 am

Kevin Nolan wrote:I'm not particularly interested in Fishing as a hobby - so I'm not a member of a Fishing Forum - and I certainly never considered a surely arrogant stance of joining a Fishing forum and tell everyone there to stop talking about Fishing because I don't like it.

I think I was just saying that people who've never gone fishing shouldn't talk on and on like they know all about it...sorry if I offended anybody (Kevin) but it would be nice to hear from someone who's spent at least a little time playing a Montage...

df