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shabudua wrote:Knowledge of music theory is a powerful and useful thing. The more theory I learn, the more its value becomes apparent. But I won't go so far as to say that it is necessary for the creation of good music.

In my book, the most vital ingredient in good music is sincerity; in other words, a spiritual, emotional investment in your music. Without it, even the most talented, trained, knowledgable musician's work will come across as empty. With it, even the most ignorant novice can create something vibrant and meaningful.

I agree with this, but I'll go one further: as in many endeavors we have innate and learned skills. You can certainly make music with either of those, but I think you can only be a great musician with *both*.

jerseykorg wrote:Oh man, such ignorance. This reminds me of some kid who writes a program in visual basic so thinks he doesn't have to study computer science to be a good programmer.

The best hip-hop producers all have music theory knowledge. Timbaland, Scott Storch and Pharrell some of the hottest producers right now are all versed in music theory. J-Dilla, darling of hip-hop purists, had a jazz bassist as a father and is reported to be able to hear absolute pitch. Furthermore hip-hop beats today are mostly made with synthesizers not samplers.

How can you have a trained ear without music theory? Ear training means being able to identify keys, chords, intervals and time signatures, all of which are matters of theory.

Contrary to popular belief music theory allows you to be more creative because you can actually identify and focus on new ideas instead of just hoping to randomly stumble upon something that sounds good...and you know why that stuff seem to sound good? Because it sounds familiar to your ear, meaning not really creative. Do you real think all these derivative genres built off the amen break are taking music in creative directions?

People without music theory are respected on internet forums, people with music theory are respected at Julliard...

Very true, but I think this is more a case of "are these machines musical instruments?", or better yet: "is creating real music possible with these machines?". And I think that the answer to those is a big fat YES. Of course knowing music theory (and if you possess the gift of creativity) will set you apart from the crowd. Yes people, It does make a difference.

jerseykorg wrote:Oh man, such ignorance. This reminds me of some kid who writes a program in visual basic so thinks he doesn't have to study computer science to be a good programmer.

The best hip-hop producers all have music theory knowledge. Timbaland, Scott Storch and Pharrell some of the hottest producers right now are all versed in music theory. J-Dilla, darling of hip-hop purists, had a jazz bassist as a father and is reported to be able to hear absolute pitch. Furthermore hip-hop beats today are mostly made with synthesizers not samplers.

How can you have a trained ear without music theory? Ear training means being able to identify keys, chords, intervals and time signatures, all of which are matters of theory.

Contrary to popular belief music theory allows you to be more creative because you can actually identify and focus on new ideas instead of just hoping to randomly stumble upon something that sounds good...and you know why that stuff seem to sound good? Because it sounds familiar to your ear, meaning not really creative. Do you real think all these derivative genres built off the amen break are taking music in creative directions?

People without music theory are respected on internet forums, people with music theory are respected at Julliard...

Once again I disagree... you do not need to know WHAT the key is... or WHAT the chord is... you need to practice and learn how different keys work together and what works well... same goes for time signatures...

And I will agree with you that most people turn knobs and hit buttons until they get something that sounds cool.... but I don't consider those people good musicians.

As far as the amen break goes.... hmeh no.... the amen is almost dead not many people use it... BUT.... you do have to realize that the amen break was the soul purpose that SEVERAL genres were created not to mention many different music cultures...... So was it creative? Yes!!!!

Now as far as today goes... depends on the artist.... most people like in every genre of music invest the time in "learning the keys" and making the music "sound familiar" which makes music in every specific genre for the most part sound the same...... Now I will argue myself by saying that there are ALWAYS very talented musicians who always take it up a notch and push the genre... but also electronic music and music in general to a whole new level.....


Also I will +10 the person who said that it's not about music theory but about having a spiritual connection to music... that's not quite how I would put it BUT... the quality of your music is directly affected by the purpose of the music you make....

If you make rap to make money (sorry but that's what I feel MOST rappers do) then chances are you got someone else making beats for you and you are stealing someone elses style to gain popularity and make money......


A true musician primarily makes music for themselves and for the love of music. They also explore music to a much deeper level on their own....

I am not by any means saying break all rules and make music that does not work together on a musical level.... you gotta have sounds in the right pitch and ones that are paired together very well for it to sound clean and pleasing to the ear.... what I am saying is that by no means do you need music theory to do that.... and in my personal opinion when it comes to electronic music's unconventional way of production... music theory would actually dull down the more creative ways of working with music....

For example.... recording a vocal loop... chopping it up.... and rearranging it by changing the pitch and position of the samples....

Or... using a bank of samples that do not tune to a specific pitch and even ones that have a drasticly varying pitch in them.... and producing powerful, musical compositions by simply arranging them..... a lot of people use these techniques to make music and music theory simply cannot be applied to those common techniques....

Although I am still learning, I consider myself a pretty good musician. I have never touched music theory and never will. I still use synthesizers, chords, and I constantly match up different sounds in different key by pitch but I did not need music theory to learn that... Not to mention that I have worked in different time signatures including mixing and matching them in one song (I believe it's called a polyrhythm) and I have never had any previous knowledge, tutorials or books that told me how to do it.

If you still think I"m ignorant then please listen to my music. I have been doing this for a long time and just because I have a solid opinion does not make me ignorant.

Listen to my music and if you still think I'm wrong by the quality of it then I'll take it back... maybe even read some stuff on theory.

-Ruso

laikenf wrote:I think this is more a case of "are these machines musical instruments?", or better yet: "is creating real music possible with these machines?". And I think that the answer to those is a big fat YES.

You hit the nail on the head there.

As for what a "real musician" is: if creating your music gives you a sense of fulfillment, you're doing it right. Learning, practice, and study may all increase your fulfillment...or not. Only you can find out.

shabudua wrote:

laikenf wrote:I think this is more a case of "are these machines musical instruments?", or better yet: "is creating real music possible with these machines?". And I think that the answer to those is a big fat YES.

You hit the nail on the head there.

As for what a "real musician" is: if creating your music gives you a sense of fulfillment, you're doing it right. Learning, practice, and study may all increase your fulfillment...or not. Only you can find out.

+1 amen!

Ruso wrote:
Also I will +10 the person who said that it's not about music theory but about having a spiritual connection to music... that's not quite how I would put it BUT... the quality of your music is directly affected by the purpose of the music you make....

A true musician primarily makes music for themselves and for the love of music. They also explore music to a much deeper level on their own....

Amen! That's pretty much what I meant by "investment." Your foremost goal has to be to create music that pleases, amuses, and amazes you. Otherwise there's little chance it will please, amuse, or amaze anyone else. Or make you any money, for that matter. Money can be one of your motivators, but if it is the only one, chances are you will fail on all counts.

Ruso wrote:
what I am saying is that by no means do you need music theory to do that.... and in my personal opinion when it comes to electronic music's unconventional way of production... music theory would actually dull down the more creative ways of working with music....

I rarely, if ever, use my knowledge of theory while I'm actually composing. That would feel a bit like "Paint By Numbers". Sometimes it helps when I'm stuck, but that's about it.

But I often use theory after the fact to analyze and understand what I've done, and why it works. It allows me to appreciate my own music on a whole different level. Which is fun, if you ask me.

It also allows me to get a whole different level of inspiration from other people's music, because I can better analyze and understand why it sounds so good.

I'd encourage all musicians to learn some theory and see if it helps. If it does, you'll actually enjoy it. If it doesn't, then by all means, drop it and go your own way. It's not like a moral imperative or anything.

Using these machines does not make you a musician, but it helps to be one when using these machines. Mastering a guitar for example takes a lifetime and then some. Mastering these machines will not take you a life time to operate. I am new with these machines and have been listening to peoples compositions and for the most part what I hear is boring. If you all give a listen to Jean Luc Ponty. He is a fusion violinist. He also has been on the cutting edge of the technology. We all can learn from him. He uses machines in very interesting ways as backing tracks, with punctuated, syncopated rhythms, changes digressions and movements. Then he plays his midi violin on top of this sometimes using EFX. I am sure he had some idea of what he wanted to do before he started. Of course you could be inspired by the Technology, it may spark the beginning of a theme. I get inspired by listening to others. I may start with some idea I heard in a song and embellish it until it becomes my song. Hey Billy Joel writes with musical ideas and tries to fit words to the rhythm. he doesn't start with a theme. A little of this and a little of that makes your style. Always have fun,unless you are writing the blues then you must write what you feel... Johnny G.

+1 Amen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

I damn sure consider myself a musician as I make my living from doing music. The Electribes are instruments in every aspect I can think of and can make some very good sounding tracks with just using the EMX and ESX only. I started off using the old MKIIs but have been using the X's now for almost 5 years and still can get new sounding sounds out of it. I also own a Machinedrum and Monomachine and thought that once I got them the Electribes would be gathering dust but they are still used on a daily basis by me along with my Elektrons. Those guys play very well together BTW. www.reverbnation.com

Wow, I read this thread a few months ago, but didn't bother to reply since someone always said what I was thinking in the many pages.

The Electribes are instruments in every aspect I can think of

Hate me, but I disagree. I consider them Drum Machines and not musical instruments. My own definition (and you don't have to agree) is a musical instrument must function in an acoustic sense.

Therefore The Electric Guitar is a musical instrument because it was born from...an Acoustic Guitar- in other words can be used round-the-camp-fire.

Adding "electricity" to drums = Electronic Drum set. And thus to operate it, you must be drumming- in other words; be a drummer.

Not so with Drum machines. On most albums you'd get credited with "Drums programmed by" if you made the drum track artificially. People make the same argument that a PC or Lap top is a musical instrument because they make wonderful music using it. Those are musical TOOLS. Not musical instruments.

A turntable is not a musical instrument. It's a TOOL that plays records that can be used in a musical way or even AS A musical instrument, but that does not change what it is. If you use Electronics/Programming in every/most aspects of your music production, you are an Electronic Musician- the Electronic part signifies that you are aided by Electronics.

In the same way a MIDI controller is NOT a musical instrument. It is a tool, but you may be a musician with great playing skills using that tool to create your music.

So for the expected exceptions that always creep up- you can bang on the pads in real time and perform your entire song live without ever using the record button. That's still using a tool in a musical way and those people will always have the background skill of a drummer. Great skill in Programming a drum machine does not give you the skill of a drummer.

That's the difference.

The definition of musician to me requires a proficiency with a Musical Instrument.

In that case, is a barrel organ a musical instrument?

I had to Google that. I found on Wikipedia:

A barrel organ (or roller organ) is a mechanical musical instrument consisting of bellows and one or more ranks of pipes housed in a case, usually of wood, and often highly decorated. The basic principle is the same as a traditional pipe organ, but rather than being played by an organist, the barrel organ is activated either by a person turning a crank, or by clockwork driven by weights or springs. The pieces of music are encoded onto wooden barrels (or cylinders), which are analogous to the keyboard of the traditional pipe organ.


Mechanical Musical Instrument is the exact definition. It's in a sub-set of musical instrument. Just like an Electronic drum is to an actual acoustic drum set. The original question was directed at the USER and in this case I've underlined the difference between playing an instrument and operating a tool. If you're still unsure: an organist plays the organ. Anyone can turn the crank on a barrel organ. And thus, simply because I use a Barrel Organ doesn't mean I'm an organist.


It fits perfectly. Electronic musician is the exact term that fits and it's a subset of musicians. We can get into subtle semantics, but it's the difference between saying you play a synthesizer in your band and your band uses a lot of synthesizers.

The obvious assumption or connotation is that you play the keyboard.

How about I connect my Electribe's midi output to a board with a microprocessor able to trigger valves, relays and other electro-mechanical actuators that would trigger mechanical apparatus to generate sound? Interesting results would arise from such thing!

When I was studying electronic engineering, one of my professors built an accordion... that was producing sound in a 100% mechanical way (with air pumps and everything), but which was controlled by a computer, using Matlab to drive relays according to a midi file.

I've then been told that another professor of the school, a very old man, once noticed that the magnetic memories of the school first computer (few decades back) would make some noise when changing state. He then wrote a program that would turn this into a sort of electromechanical musical instrument/tool , in the same manner some people are now playing Star Wars theme using harddrives (youtube has some videos).

Is Chris Martin name enough to say Electribe is useful for real musicians???
Then Add Shakira too in the same set.
Skip to time 4:58

https://youtu.be/58I3LFNYKJg?t=298